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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 18:36:02
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Q: So if a lich does indeed reappear in physical, corporeal form, then which bodily form is that? Is it the lich's original, "birth" body? Is it the last body that the lich possessed before the most recent demise? Or does a particularly long-lived, multiple-identitied lich get to pick and choose?
If a lich reappears very quickly, it's possible that the previous body may not have degraded much. So does that mean that the earlier body is out there, dormant, and the lich also reappears with an identical new body?
So liching also basically entails cloning? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2012 : 23:16:35
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Personally, in my campaigns, I prefer to have the Lich reside within his phylactery until a body becomes available. It sometimes throws off a party when the Lich they defeated later comes back in a form that is much less rotted (or not at all) and may even look like someone they once knew!
Strictly speaking, I've allowed Liches VERY QUICKLY to regain their physical form by taking over something as simple as a Skeleton's body via Magic Jar from their phylactery. At the same time, such a weakened vessel usually has far inferior Hit Points; though their magical power wouldn't be diminished.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 07 Apr 2012 23:17:53 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 01:57:31
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I don't see the process as cloning - the genetics (even the race) of the lich's new vessel/body aren't at all relevant, and of course all the tissue is completely dead. I suppose it's possible that the old inhabitant of the body might "live" to some extent when the lich sometimes shows mild quirks, mannerisms, or characteristics which are somehow indelibly imprinted in the body ... but this sort of thing is usually not explored in D&D, outside of horror tales set in Ravenloft. The basic idea in D&D is that the body is entirely unoccupied; the soul has departed towards some eternal afterplane, there aren't any interfering factors (such as eternal rest, protection from evil, necromantic reanimation, vampirism, etc) which still anchor the intangible or keep the body spiritually intact, it's just a plain old corpse the lich can claim, fresh maggots are as inconsequential as mummified cadavers unless the lich plans to interact with the living.
I think possession would be a far more apt description. Consider the body as being an animated mannequin which the lich invests his consciousness into, while some part of his soul remains contained in his phylactery. The magic jar spell basically operates the same way, note that in AD&D (1E) the dweomer/school for this spell (and only this spell) was listed as "possession". |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 06:39:39
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I like the term ressurection, only because its cooler than possession, as your own soul occupies the body and you rise once again. Hah, can you imagine a mighty adventurer after killing the necromancer, he succumbs to his wounds and receives a open casket funeral in front of his family, with all the possession he had in life, including that odd amulet.
"Mommy, why is Daddy's eye glowing red?"
Also the whole part of Greeth trying to influence Dahlia is something like possession. However she was an elf. I thought liches could only possess corpses of their own race, like alhoon=illithid, dracolich=dragon, human lich=human... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 16:24:06
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I think not so mighty an adventurer if his allies abadoned his body for 1d10 days after the lich was felled, and I think his allies would have to be utterly incompetent to abandon magical items where he fell.
I suppose the newly arisen lich would have memory of his last moments fighting the hero (and the hero's allies) ... he would likely know enough to use the identity of his new body advantageously while exacting his vengeance. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 17:51:34
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The Lich Shoon VII posseses the body of an elf, which invalidates the 'same race' conjecture.
However, as I noted above, Shoon is now in a form more akin to a Suel Lich, which possess living people - the elf girl is still very much alive, and her consciousness is trapped within her own mind.
Come to think of it, a Suel Lich is almost like a cross between a powerful ghost and a lich - its 'natural form' is incorporeal.
As I type this I am checking sources - apparently (Dragon #339) the lich kills the host when the body is possessed. What, precisely, happens to the body itself is a bit ambiguous - the text seems to imply that it is both dead (type: Undead) and alive (it ages at three times the normal rate).
I would rule that the lich itself is undead, but not the body it possesses (according to the text, you have to track two sets of HP, so this makes sense). I would also say (homebrew lore) that the victim is only killed if the lich desires it - some may want to make the victim suffer (seeing horrors it commits through its own eyes), or perhaps to use it intermittently - the lich may have victims/slaves/servants it wants to jump between, and keeping the comatose (brain-dead) body alive when elsewhere could get to be a drag.
This last bit helps us with the two 'FR examples' - Tan Chin's history makes more sense if he liked to jump back-and-forth, and Shoon still has the elf girl inside his head (since this was a magical accident, and not an intentional possession, that could also be the reason). It also makes sense on the basis of the liches' limitation - the body must belong to a character within 15 levels of the lich, and if the lich levels while in-possession and breaks the 15-level barrier, then it has to immediately vacate the body (which could be rether inconvenient). Ergo, it might make sense for the lich to not only give the bodies back to their owners, but also force those owners to 'train-up', so the lich doesn't have to worry about itself leveling at an inopportune time. I think this is the case of the original monk Ambuchar Devyam, who seems to be one of Tan Chin's favorite 'rides' - if Tan Chin got the monk to continue his training, eventually he would have hit level 20 and gotten the Diamond Body ability, which would be VERY useful in light of the drawback of accelerated aging.
The Suel lich is even more vile then the normal variety for this reason - it would keep a group of servants/slaves much like a vampire keep human familiars - instead of draining blood, it leeches life-force every time it rides the owner (so now the Suel lich is like some unholy form of Ancient dead, combining the abilities of ghosts, vampires, and liches).
I wonder who'd win in a fight between a dracolich and suel lich? They are both muchkin varieties of their type. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Apr 2012 15:44:08 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 18:05:20
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| I thought Shoon's victim was in the book? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 21:57:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I don't see the process as cloning - the genetics (even the race) of the lich's new vessel/body aren't at all relevant, and of course all the tissue is completely dead.
I'm not sure what genetics or whether the tissue is dead has to do with whether liching involves cloning.
I suggested the cloning bit because several of you were describing the reappearance of a lich as entailing the formation of a new body. Meanwhile, the old body is still out there. So that sounds like a duplication of bodies: or cloning.
To whit, I asked, "Which form of body does the new body take?"
Greeth's body was vanquished under the harbor outside Luskan. Greeth's spirit departed the body, but that body still continued to exist.
Now, if he were to reappear in 1d10 days afterwards, his old body would still be down there, and his supposed new body would be in his lair beneath Illusk.
Your old body got whacked? Fine--just make a new one exactly like the old one and download your consciousness into it.
That sounds a lot like some form of cloning to me.
quote:
I think possession would be a far more apt description. Consider the body as being an animated mannequin which the lich invests his consciousness into, while some part of his soul remains contained in his phylactery. The magic jar spell basically operates the same way, note that in AD&D (1E) the dweomer/school for this spell (and only this spell) was listed as "possession".
I prefer the possession route.
But this requires that the lich exist as some sort of non-corporeal ghost/specter/apparition, right? The disembodied lich lies in waiting inside the phylactery, until an acceptable new host body comes along.
And that would seem to throw the whole 1d10 thing completely away. The new host body might not come along until decades later, as was the case with Greeth being defeated in 1377 DR (TPK), while Dahlia arrived in 1451 DR (Gaunt.).
And even if a potential host body came along, the lich still might not find it acceptable or suitable. Maybe he wants something stronger, or more erotic, or just plain odd, his second time around.
Q: Whatever happened to Zhengyi? Why hasn't he reappeared--in 1d10 days, or otherwise?
I get it that his essence was somehow divided up amongst lots of different artifacts all over the Bloodstone Lands, to wreak widespread magical havoc. But does that mean that none of those artifacts actually worked as his phylactery, anymore? They worked as phylactery traps for new people, turning others into liches; but did none of them actually possess a complete, intact copy of Zhenyi's soul, anymore?
In Promise of the Witch-King, Jarlaxle learned that the phylacteries that he found would only allow him to gain control over corpses of the same species as the phylactery. Thus, a human phylactery would only control human corpses/skeletons, a dragon phylactery would only control dragon corpses/skeletons, etc. For example, the skull gem of the human mage lich Herminicle Duperdas held little sway over Jarlaxle, a drow, but it did allow him to call forth human skeletons. The copper dragon sisters feared that someone might find the skull gem of the black dragon Urshula, and thereby gain control over them. (Never mind that copper dragons and black dragons are not the same species, anymore than humans and drow, I guess.) Or perhaps what they feared most was someone finding a copper dracolich's skull gem, amidst all the corpses that had amassed during Zhengyi's reign. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 08 Apr 2012 21:58:15 |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2012 : 23:02:54
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According to 1st ed Lords of Darkness each time a life force of a lich flees to a Phylactary they can reposess thier bodies if they are nearby (this may be why many Liches retreat to their 'lairs' if pressed). However if their original body is not nearby then they can attempt to possess a nearby corpse...however this yields a body akin to a wight-like corpse which has certain reduced capabilities (such as no damaging/life draining touch).
Once in this form a Lich may search for it's body or try to reform it with various magic....cloning or Wish spells etc. As this is akin to the Lichnee state, I guess the process of ingesting part of your original body may also alow the Wight-Lich to metamorphose into it's original form.
Van Richten's Guide to the Lich elaborates on this further by explaining that a Lich can only possess a corpse within 60ft of the Lich's Phylactery but if the attempt fails then they must wait until a different corpse becomes available. It seems this possession also extends to the Undead....but such a task is harder. Other possibilities are also mentioned like possessing mortals with magic Jar (a la Shoon)until they can complete a ritual to transform them to their original form.
With regards to Arklem Greeth I presume he is waiting for an appropiate body to come within range or suitible mortal. However with such well warded and dangerous entities around like Gromph and Jarlaxle he shall be hard pressed to find the time and space to safetly undertake any rash moves.
All in all a complex and dangerous process it seems, especially for those Liches who do not have well protected lairs or lack the contingency plans for such eventualites. DM's may not need to know all this fine detail for thier campaign and the 1d10 ruling will probably serve fine. But those curious few may be intrested.
The art of Liching has come up in my campaign recently so I've been researching this rather grisly process of late.
-Eli |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 08 Apr 2012 23:04:06 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 00:04:15
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| What do the liching sages know of Valindra's notion of possessing a pit fiend? Has anyone ever successfully taken over an outsider, like that? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 05:15:02
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I do not think she possessed the pit fiend, rather the ruby rod she held had some sort of binding over it.
To Markustay, I do not think Shoon is a Suel Lich at all, rather he was a demilich who when attempting to eat the elf's soul, had his own soul switched with her body and vice versa. Therefore I believe that in all respects he is a living, breathing elf. If he were a suel lich, then that body would have burnt out sometime ago, and he would have to possess another living body. His knowledge of lichdom, however allows him a contingency in case the the body he is inhabiting is severely wounded. I believe he would have all processes of lichdom done already, just in case. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 09:51:58
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Q: So if a lich does indeed reappear in physical, corporeal form, then which bodily form is that? Is it the lich's original, "birth" body? Is it the last body that the lich possessed before the most recent demise? Or does a particularly long-lived, multiple-identitied lich get to pick and choose?
Wasn't that just a variant animation of a nearby corpse?
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
What do the liching sages know of Valindra's notion of possessing a pit fiend? Has anyone ever successfully taken over an outsider, like that?
Dunno, but... Creatures inherently tied to a specific plane should not "work" like mortals. Just like there apparently aren't zombies from pit fiend corpses, etc. I doubt that anyone really needs to open a can of worms THAT big.  Besides, it would create a recursion where such creatures die, become petitioners, get promoted, die... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 15:04:29
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| Hmm, it almost seems like the best "protected" location for a phylactery would be under the floorstones in a mausoleum or, if on a budget, buried a few feet under an empty coffin in an unmarked grave in a crowded cemetary. Always plenty of bodies around, protected from trespass by the squeamish sentiments of the living. I suppose there's a bit of risk of necromancers detecting such a phylactery while looking for corpses ... smart ones would probably leave it undisturbed and go elsewhere. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 18:57:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, it almost seems like the best "protected" location for a phylactery would be under the floorstones in a mausoleum or, if on a budget, buried a few feet under an empty coffin in an unmarked grave in a crowded cemetary. Always plenty of bodies around, protected from trespass by the squeamish sentiments of the living. I suppose there's a bit of risk of necromancers detecting such a phylactery while looking for corpses ... smart ones would probably leave it undisturbed and go elsewhere.
I've always thought that all a lich would need to do is hide his phylactery in the wall. Shield it from magical detection, put an open area in a stone or entirely wall off an area... If the lich does it when constructing the keep/tower, or if he has ways of making sure the new wall matches the existing construction, then any attackers will have no reason to assume there's anything on the other side of the wall. There is no need for elaborate protections when it's not where someone would think to look for it. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 20:28:13
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| -One thing, to keep in mind about Lich phylacteries: There's stuff that makes sense, and then there's D&D. Would it make more sense for a Lich to hide his phylactery somewhere half across the world, on a deserted island, buried under a redwood tree? Sure. In a D&D game and book, the protagonists would never resolve things (in actually killing the Lich). So, the things that probably would be most secure are a lot less likely to be featured. Instead, you'll see the 'stereotypical' phylactery hiding places. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 21:19:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I do not think she possessed the pit fiend, rather the ruby rod she held had some sort of binding over it.
Right, that spear-mace of Asmodeus allowed her to call forth the pit fiend Beealtimatuche, and apparently that squad of legion devils, to boot (Gaunt.).
She only suggested to Szass Tam that she wanted to place Greeth's spirit into the pit fiend's body. I believe that this was to maintain the ruse of her insanity, and to induce Tam to underestimate her and continue to focus on Sylora, instead.
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Wasn't that just a variant animation of a nearby corpse?
Yep, and that's what liching seems to be to me. It consists of 1) creating an anchor to this plane for your soul when you die (the phylactery); and 2) somehow loading a part of your soul into a convenient corpse, which decays over time. I see this second part a type of "animate corpse", or rather, "possess corpse". |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2012 : 21:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Och, this is why I don't read Salvatore's books. I like to keep it simple: immune means immune, cannot be harmed.
Bob's more in touch with the visceral, melee type of encounters. If you think about it, realistically, it's difficult to imagine a stealthy approach and dagger slice to the throat being completely ineffective just because your target is a high-class mage who theoretically has wards and contingency spells in place at all times. All that magic stuff sounds kewl on paper, but how does that measure up against a razor-edged steel/mithral/adamantine blade on skin? I mean, come on--seriously?
The black-and-white interpretation of magic is almost like a form of foreign language to those of us who are more in tune with direct, tangible forms of battle. That magical approach almost sounds too "simple". It sounds cartoonish, or childish. "No, you can't do that, because I have a force-field, so 'Nah, nah, nah'!" 
Of course, I suppose that to the well-trained, high level mage, my inability to easily grasp his black-and-white magical approach would make me the one who was being too "simple". So it's all relative. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 01:26:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, it almost seems like the best "protected" location for a phylactery would be under the floorstones in a mausoleum or, if on a budget, buried a few feet under an empty coffin in an unmarked grave in a crowded cemetary. Always plenty of bodies around, protected from trespass by the squeamish sentiments of the living. I suppose there's a bit of risk of necromancers detecting such a phylactery while looking for corpses ... smart ones would probably leave it undisturbed and go elsewhere.
I've always thought that all a lich would need to do is hide his phylactery in the wall. Shield it from magical detection, put an open area in a stone or entirely wall off an area... If the lich does it when constructing the keep/tower, or if he has ways of making sure the new wall matches the existing construction, then any attackers will have no reason to assume there's anything on the other side of the wall. There is no need for elaborate protections when it's not where someone would think to look for it.
I don't see it, personally.
My experiences with thieves and explorers in-game, has almost always told me that you're likely to have at least one player in any group who routinely thinks "outside of the box" when it comes to such matters of undeath. And, thus, will actively search for such sites when seeking a phylactery.
And I would expect there will also always be those characters who have some significant proficiency in the hunting/eradication of vile and powerful undead, to be largely conversant in the many and varied techniques liches employ to protect their phylactaries. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 04:49:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, it almost seems like the best "protected" location for a phylactery would be under the floorstones in a mausoleum or, if on a budget, buried a few feet under an empty coffin in an unmarked grave in a crowded cemetary. Always plenty of bodies around, protected from trespass by the squeamish sentiments of the living. I suppose there's a bit of risk of necromancers detecting such a phylactery while looking for corpses ... smart ones would probably leave it undisturbed and go elsewhere.
I've always thought that all a lich would need to do is hide his phylactery in the wall. Shield it from magical detection, put an open area in a stone or entirely wall off an area... If the lich does it when constructing the keep/tower, or if he has ways of making sure the new wall matches the existing construction, then any attackers will have no reason to assume there's anything on the other side of the wall. There is no need for elaborate protections when it's not where someone would think to look for it.
I don't see it, personally.
My experiences with thieves and explorers in-game, has almost always told me that you're likely to have at least one player in any group who routinely thinks "outside of the box" when it comes to such matters of undeath. And, thus, will actively search for such sites when seeking a phylactery.
And I would expect there will also always be those characters who have some significant proficiency in the hunting/eradication of vile and powerful undead, to be largely conversant in the many and varied techniques liches employ to protect their phylactaries.
Well, unless they routinely smash holes in solid walls, they won't have any reason to look for a phylactery hidden in a normal wall, assuming the phylactery is magically shielded from detection. Especially if there's a decoy phylactery.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Apr 2012 04:50:42 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 05:20:51
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With the real phylactery on one of the tears of Selune!
Of course having your phylactery protected is one thing but (does magic of that sort degrade over time?) I mean in earlier editions the sourcebooks said of how the body eventually rots away and becomes a demilich, but now we now it is the use of Astral Projection and creation of soul gems, so if you now kept your phylactery hidden in a safe place would the magic slowly erode over time, i mean i'm sure that a want to be lich would have worked out the kinks... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 05:47:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, it almost seems like the best "protected" location for a phylactery would be under the floorstones in a mausoleum or, if on a budget, buried a few feet under an empty coffin in an unmarked grave in a crowded cemetary. Always plenty of bodies around, protected from trespass by the squeamish sentiments of the living. I suppose there's a bit of risk of necromancers detecting such a phylactery while looking for corpses ... smart ones would probably leave it undisturbed and go elsewhere.
I've always thought that all a lich would need to do is hide his phylactery in the wall. Shield it from magical detection, put an open area in a stone or entirely wall off an area... If the lich does it when constructing the keep/tower, or if he has ways of making sure the new wall matches the existing construction, then any attackers will have no reason to assume there's anything on the other side of the wall. There is no need for elaborate protections when it's not where someone would think to look for it.
Sometimes, a phylactery emanates too much magical energy that makes it easy to detect, especially by capable wizards. And even if you conceal it with magic, the same energy (which would be in considerable amount, given the thing it's suppose to cover) would be obvious to those who know what to look for...
I suggest the lich hides it in his own pocket universe. Or maybe in the depths of the Sea of Fallen Stars. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2475 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 11:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, it almost seems like the best "protected" location for a phylactery would be...
-The planet itself.
Not entirely foolproof either - there are elves... 
Seriously, though, such things require limitations.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always thought that all a lich would need to do is hide his phylactery in the wall. Shield it from magical detection, put an open area in a stone or entirely wall off an area... If the lich does it when constructing the keep/tower, or if he has ways of making sure the new wall matches the existing construction, then any attackers will have no reason to assume there's anything on the other side of the wall.
But just about everyone tries to probe for secret passages and stashes, especially in a spellcaster's home.
Also, detection methods vary. It's not that hard to expect masked magic, and someone thorough enough always can find a way around this. E.g. like Markeen ("Sticky Business", Thieves' World) did. 
This also runs into question about limitations: large irregularities are vulnerable to mundane sounding.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
Would it make more sense for a Lich to hide his phylactery somewhere half across the world, on a deserted island, buried under a redwood tree? Sure.
It's a very good solution, but not completely foolproof either.
Most would feel uncomfortable leaving far out of sight for long things on which their existence immediately depends. And if our lich scries on something regularly, a thorough enough foe may notice and track.
It also needs a stash there: at least one corpse to raise in (better to have several, in case the lich is destroyed before safely replenishing this most important resource), and a well-protected spellbook allowing to, at least, cast disguise and teleport out without leaving tracks (via several other forlorn places, if he's really smart). Which may end up complicating the matter. A smart lich will use dead beggars found in a gutter, petty bandits killed in internal squabbles or something like this, but even here the risk to run into a dead spy someone will try to find is non-zero.
Liches overconfident in their power make it way too easy, yes, but in the end, it's always a gamble.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
She only suggested to Szass Tam that she wanted to place Greeth's spirit into the pit fiend's body.
Did she say it's supposed to be possession? Because there's always Fiendform (old Thayan spell, at that) and someone may want to try it via a permanent item, even based on a phylactery. Why not? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 11:47:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've always thought that all a lich would need to do is hide his phylactery in the wall. Shield it from magical detection, put an open area in a stone or entirely wall off an area... If the lich does it when constructing the keep/tower, or if he has ways of making sure the new wall matches the existing construction, then any attackers will have no reason to assume there's anything on the other side of the wall.
But just about everyone tries to probe for secret passages and stashes, especially in a spellcaster's home.
Also, detection methods vary. It's not that hard to expect masked magic, and someone thorough enough always can find a way around this. E.g. like Markeen ("Sticky Business", Thieves' World) did.
This also runs into question about limitations: large irregularities are vulnerable to mundane sounding.
I'm not talking about a secret passage. I'm talking about hiding it within a solid rock wall. PCs aren't going to look for something in physically inaccessible areas. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 14:39:54
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| You would have to make it destruction-proof just in case a stray fireball demolishes it and a pretty bauble flies from the rubble landing in front of the paladin. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 15:25:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
With the real phylactery on one of the tears of Selune!
Of course having your phylactery protected is one thing but (does magic of that sort degrade over time?) I mean in earlier editions the sourcebooks said of how the body eventually rots away and becomes a demilich, but now we now it is the use of Astral Projection and creation of soul gems, so if you now kept your phylactery hidden in a safe place would the magic slowly erode over time, i mean i'm sure that a want to be lich would have worked out the kinks...
This is a legitimate concern for Liches actually as they can only reportedly survive as long as their life-preserving magic persists. Accordingly Lords of Darkness p75 explains that the spell Nulathoe#146;'s Ninemen (a 5th level spell), needs to be cast on the Phylactery every 777 days (it also has the side use of preserving corpses). Due to this magical preservation needed, few liches manage to stop the magic from failing beyond 900 years.
So in answer to the idea of hiding the phylactery away in some nameless grave and forgetting about it is not quite a good idea as the Lich will need to tend to the magic every few years possibly. I presume this applies to when the Lich is not already in the Phylactery as there are number of cases of Liches persisting for many years trapped in them.
That said, such magics change and evolve over time. So just as Nulathoe's Ninemon may have replaced the overly complex and expensive preserving magic that Liches like Larloch and Aumvor used. This method may well be replaced by other variant spells or rituals by individuals or virtue of time.
Hope this helps more than my previous post.
-Eli
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Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 10 Apr 2012 18:01:00 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 15:51:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I thought Shoon's victim was in the book?
Is it? Its been awhile since I read that lore - my bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
[brTo Markustay, I do not think Shoon is a Suel Lich at all, rather he was a demilich who when attempting to eat the elf's soul, had his own soul switched with her body and vice versa. Therefore I believe that in all respects he is a living, breathing elf. If he were a suel lich, then that body would have burnt out sometime ago, and he would have to possess another living body. His knowledge of lichdom, however allows him a contingency in case the the body he is inhabiting is severely wounded. I believe he would have all processes of lichdom done already, just in case.
Good point - I forgot about the aging aspect in his/her case.
I did, however, say his case was even more unique then other liches, in that it was caused by magical accident (the magical chaos of the ToT, IIRC). I wasn't thinking he was an actual Suel Lich (which requires a precise ritual), but rather, something akin to it. Tan Chin isn't precisely the same as a Greyhawk Suel Lich either (he may be the only one of these incorporeal-type liches that can leave their victims 'alive' - the mind, anyway).
Someone over at the Wizbro's boards once described my method of forum brain-storming as "throwing stuff at a target just to see what sticks". I probably disagree with at least half the ideas I 'toss out there', but I like having numerous possibilities for any one piece of lore - people can do whatever they want with it after that.
Not up-to-speed on the Pit Fiend conversation, but another thing just struck me - Davy Jones (from the PotC movies) is sort-of like a lich. He keeps his heart (his phylactory?) hidden in a chest on a deserted isle, and where the special key around his neck. He is obviously no longer human, and 'beyond death', so I would classify him as a rather unique sort of lich as well (cast Umberlee as Calisto and he is FR-ready).
I was thinking maybe there should be a subtype - the Sealich - but then I realized that wasn't necessary. They wouldn't be affected much by being underwater, except maybe they'd have to wear weighted shoes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Apr 2012 15:59:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 16:58:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
You would have to make it destruction-proof just in case a stray fireball demolishes it and a pretty bauble flies from the rubble landing in front of the paladin.
How many fireballs cause solid stone walls to be reduced to rubble? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 17:28:23
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One hell of a fireball...not a normal one.
However, a stray disintegrate could do it...but it isn't likely to be as common as a stray cat mind you. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2012 : 18:32:15
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Did she say it's supposed to be possession? Because there's always Fiendform (old Thayan spell, at that) and someone may want to try it via a permanent item, even based on a phylactery. Why not?
It's kinda tough to split semantic hairs over the incoherent ramblings of an elven lich . . . 
She says she wanted Greeth in the pit fiend's body, both for the destructive potential and for the kinky sex (Neverwinter, P1:C1).
Szass Tam, understandably, practically does a facepalm and groans.
In an attempt to translate Valindra's ramblings, Sylora is the one who actually uses the word "possess".
Later, under the mental probings of an abolethic ambassador, we learn that Valindra was lying about the pit fiend part, but she does indeed hope to free Greeth from his phylactery, so that he may possess another's corporeal form. This thought process comes right after Valindra considered doing the same with the disembodied spirit of the vampire Dor'crae (Nev., P2:C10). |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
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Need to Know: The Lich
