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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
 Posted - 24 May 2012 : 06:39:29
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Personally I think Tam acted only so because of RAS interpretation. Different authors have different takes on characters, so who knows...
Aside from that, a lich's touch is essentially a negative energy attack. Can they touch someone without inflicting damage? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 05:21:26
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| Can a lich only feel magical fatigue? Tammy suffered it when he gazed into nine dimensions and Zethrindor the white dracolich in The Ruin suffered it when he cast a spell of annihilation... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2012 : 14:13:14
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That depends on exactly what you mean by "magical fatigue". D&D spellcasting is traditionally Vancian, that is, spells are memorized then cast then the "fatigued" spellcaster cannot cast the spell again until he rests and memorizes. But "fatigued" is probably a bad word choice, "depleted", "discharged", etc ... or perhaps it's a perfect choice of words because the mental fatigue is comparable to a fighter's physical fatigue ... I just don't know.
But rest, sleep, food, drink, and other such limitations of living mages do not affect the undead, at least not in physical terms - a lich might retain mental habits of these weaknesses. Or it might experience "magical fatigue" in some new way the living cannot, much as a vampire experiences an unnatural hunger for living blood. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 06:00:51
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| Can a human lich only possess human bodies or can he possess bodies of other races? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 06:34:51
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If they can use any phyllactery they want, (which is the most important thing in all their existence) then surely they may choose any "body" as well. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 15:51:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Can a human lich only possess human bodies or can he possess bodies of other races?
Just take a look at Shoon VII -- he's a human lich currently driving the body of an elven woman. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2012 : 16:06:23
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That was a magical accident which occurred during the time of wild magic during the ToT.
However, I do think it is possible regardless. I think most beings choose their own race simply because they 'know' that type of body. Despite how most fantasy makes demi-humans out to be smaller humans (and not much else), the simple fact is they have different physiology. Of course, this doesn't really come to bear so much once you are dead (diet, sleep, expulsion of waste, etc), but a body is much like an old comfortable suit of clothes.
I had asked Ed about why liches wear clothes, and part of the answer was that it gives them a connection to their old life. Even though ancient and dead, they still cling to the trappings of the life they once had. If this holds true for clothes, then why not for racial type?
There is also the factor of getting used to a body that is much different then your own (like going from being a gnome to being a Wemic or Pterraman). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 May 2012 18:18:40 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 01:12:51
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True. I think it also speaks of how much they value their pre-undead life. You wouldn't want to be reminded of something you loathe in your past life when you started a new one, right? They value their past nearly as much as their present. And it's a good reminder of their success/progress: what once was a powerful archmage is now a lord of immortality. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 05:10:28
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| Hmm now that you mention it, I went back to a short story in RAS anthology in which he wrote about Zhengyi. The Witch-King created phylacteries for many dragons and "attuned" them to the respective dragons. Now im wondering if a human lich-to-be could do that? maintain life until you passed on but returning back because you "attuned" yourself to a phylactery... |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 15:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Hmm now that you mention it, I went back to a short story in RAS anthology in which he wrote about Zhengyi. The Witch-King created phylacteries for many dragons and "attuned" them to the respective dragons. Now im wondering if a human lich-to-be could do that? maintain life until you passed on but returning back because you "attuned" yourself to a phylactery...
That is pretty much how it works Xar. The aspiring Lich-to-be creates and drinks a potion which prepares its body...becoming a Lichnee (pre-Lich stage). Once the Phylactery has been made the Lichnee is only one component away from Lichdom....death. They can live indefinately (within their lifespan) as a Lichnee but they still need to die.
Most will commit suicide as part of the process as it ensures nothing goes wrong but it is certainly viable to live until one 'needs' the phylactery. |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 18:16:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Hmm now that you mention it, I went back to a short story in RAS anthology in which he wrote about Zhengyi. The Witch-King created phylacteries for many dragons and "attuned" them to the respective dragons. Now im wondering if a human lich-to-be could do that? maintain life until you passed on but returning back because you "attuned" yourself to a phylactery...
That was "If Ever They Happened Upon My Lair".
Zhengyi traveled about the land, sorta like Weird Wingham from "The Sellswords" trilogy, marketing his wares. He was a door-to-door--er, door-to-dragon--salesman. 
He pitched them the benefits, flashed some jeweled dragon-skull phylacteries at them, and let them make their own decisions. (I can see Zhengyi opening his cloak like so many charlatans and their trench coats down shady alleys, with shiny gleams to tempt the foolish.)
Some dragons jumped right on that. Others, like Urshula the Black, decided to wait.
But certain knights of the Bloodstone Army sped that decision up for him, real quick!
And Zhengyi made sure to be there, to collect the spoils of war--a desperate, willing, fresh, dying dragon, that is. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 28 May 2012 23:40:22 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2012 : 18:24:05
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Its also how Szass Tam became a lich (and possibly Larloch) - Szass was forced to enact the (previously prepared) lich-ritual, otherwise he would have just died (I forget the precise details). He was extremely young when he became a lich, comparatively.
In fact, beoming a lich is probably the ultimate contingency magic.
Which means that Elminster in his latest form is indeed a lich.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 02:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In fact, beoming a lich is probably the ultimate contingency magic.
Indeed. 'Tis the case of that wizard (forgot his name) in Daughter of the Drow who died when he plunged in the magma and rose back as a lich.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
To what end?
As I said, he could've been trying to shake Sylora out of her smug, self-centered comfort zone. [snip]
He didn't have to feign anger to do that; and he certainly didn't have to lash out at Sylora's poor pet slave. He'd had many arrogant lackeys who failed him in the past, but he never personally punished them, especially if they're not "worth the bother."
To quote Szass Tam from Unclean:
"At the risk of sounding immodest, I'm . . . formidable. When I kill with my own hands, the victim tends to be a fellow archmage, a demigod, or a whole army. Anything less is scarcely worth the bother..."
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
That depends on exactly what you mean by "magical fatigue". D&D spellcasting is traditionally Vancian, that is, spells are memorized then cast then the "fatigued" spellcaster cannot cast the spell again until he rests and memorizes. But "fatigued" is probably a bad word choice, "depleted", "discharged", etc ... or perhaps it's a perfect choice of words because the mental fatigue is comparable to a fighter's physical fatigue ... I just don't know.
But rest, sleep, food, drink, and other such limitations of living mages do not affect the undead, at least not in physical terms - a lich might retain mental habits of these weaknesses. Or it might experience "magical fatigue" in some new way the living cannot, much as a vampire experiences an unnatural hunger for living blood.
It's more than a fatigue. It's like a weakening of the core to their very being, more of their spirit/mind than physical form (which, of course, they barely have). Undead, specially liches, are immune to fatigue.
To quote a few lines from Undead:
quote:
Szass Tam lowered his staff. When the ferrule touched the ground, he suddenly felt so weak that he leaned on the instrument.
It was unexpected. Liches were supposed to be immune to fatigue. But this wasn't ordinary weariness. He truly was nearing the end of the Black Hand's gift of power, and he realized that once it was gone, he'd be weaker than normal for a time. Perhaps it took a portion of his own strength to contain Bane's energies safely until required, and then turn them to their proper purpose.
He was glad the weakness lasted only a moment. It was poor practice for a lord to allow his vassals to catch him looking vulnerable.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 29 May 2012 02:30:22 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 04:18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
He didn't have to feign anger to do that; and he certainly didn't have to lash out at Sylora's poor pet slave.
No one said that he had to do so. I was merely suggesting an in-context rationale for why he did do so.
quote:
He'd had many arrogant lackeys who failed him in the past, but he never personally punished them, especially if they're not "worth the bother."
To quote Szass Tam from Unclean:
"At the risk of sounding immodest, I'm . . . formidable. When I kill with my own hands, the victim tends to be a fellow archmage, a demigod, or a whole army. Anything less is scarcely worth the bother..."
Just because Tam is snobbish enough not to want to be troubled with actually killing a lackey doesn't mean he'd never be motivated enough to threaten to do so, if he thought it might lead to a change of heart within said lackey.
Or does he openly invite the Realms to think of him as an ineffectual pushover who lets his toadies walk all over him?
"Here Cowers Szass Tam: Impotent Do-nothing Arch-Pansy of Thay. He Couldn't Get His Thayan Dread Rings Right, and He's Not Doing Any Better in Neverwinter. And His Lackeys Love to Have it So."
Being lackadaisical and easy-come/easy-go with her had failed. There's no sense in continuing to be that way. No matter how many quotes you might throw up to say that Szass Tam is normally pretty nonchalant about incompetent associates, it wouldn't make sense for him to value the Neverwinter Dread Ring mission, but not care about how poorly his minions assigned to that mission were actually carrying it out. He'd have to care about it more than nothing. And so, IMO, he'd most likely care enough to try a different approach this time around.
(On a side note, that "poor pet slave" was named Jestry, and methinks he was named similar to a jester precisely because he was meant to annoy and heckle and pester and inspire a little wrath. He wasn't meant to be bland and purely ignorable.)
Also notice that nowhere in RAS's stories does Tam ever actually whack anybody. He threatens a bit, and Sylora straightens up a bit. But he doesn't actually follow through with it.
So RAS's depiction doesn't contradict RLB's in terms of showing Tam having to kill anybody.
It only shows a situation in which Tam apparently feels moved to threaten it.
And in this situation, the threat works. Sylora changes her ways. She ceases to bicker constantly with Dahlia, and recommits herself to executing the Neverwinter Dread Ring mission.
Now, was threatening her into straightening herself up the best course for Tam to take? I don't know. Maybe some other tack would've worked even better. Perhaps you could suggest another approach that you feel would've been both more in character for the lich and more effective, Dennis.
Again, all I'm doing here is offering up a rationalization for what WOTC has given us, as opposed to just throwing up my hands in the air and dismissing it. I've found that the stories are more enjoyable this way. They're almost a participatory experience in themselves, like what I imagine the game to be, in this manner. All of the various apparent inconsistencies and gaffs call upon us to project our own intellects (and egos?) into the works in order to strive to pull out some sort of explanation for how it might all still somehow make sense at the end of the day. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 29 May 2012 04:48:08 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2012 : 05:16:13
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Or does he openly invite the Realms to think of him as an ineffectual pushover who lets his toadies walk all over him?
No. His (higher) servants punish other servants, whose parting words are along the line of "You know the price of disobeying our master."
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Now, was threatening her into straightening herself up the best course for Tam to take? I don't know. Maybe some other tack would've worked even better. Perhaps you could suggest another approach that you feel would've been both more in character for the lich and more effective, Dennis.
His presence alone should be more than enough. Two of his subordinates (tharachions whose names escape me at the moment; and I'm too lazy to grab Unclean to verify) once made a fool of themselves, and practically accepted their doom when Szass Tam learned of it. Even Xingax, a very powerful undead whose brilliance possibly matches Szass Tam's, fears his master...
A word or two from Szass Tam, not necessarily a threat, but a mere statement that bears weight, can be added to the equation. But again, his presence should be enough to encourage/force obedience.
When he uses his bony hands to punish or kill, the victims are always archmages and an army. The zulkirs and an army of Rashemi witches and berserkers can attest to that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 04:17:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
His presence alone should be more than enough. Two of his subordinates (tharachions whose names escape me at the moment; and I'm too lazy to grab Unclean to verify) once made a fool of themselves, and practically accepted their doom when Szass Tam learned of it. Even Xingax, a very powerful undead whose brilliance possibly matches Szass Tam's, fears his master...
A word or two from Szass Tam, not necessarily a threat, but a mere statement that bears weight, can be added to the equation. But again, his presence should be enough to encourage/force obedience.
Now it sounds like your real beef is with his lackeys in Neverwinter, for failing to be reverent enough. I agree that they didn't seem to take him seriously enough. There was exposition that made it sound like Sylora dreaded having to face the music with Tam. But once she opened her mouth, she seemed to have lost all perspective as to whom she was dealing with. Jestry never seemed to know what was going on in the first place.
Now I'm really reaching. But what if it wasn't really Tam who was appearing to Sylora within the Dread Ring ash cloud? What if it was one of his other appointed representatives, serving as his proxy?
Does Tam send in emissaries, as with Lloth and her handmaidens? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2012 : 06:08:13
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| I read up on the Thay of today in the FRCG. Apparently there is still a zulkirate system which consists of liches who specialize in necromancy, who are subservient to Tammy. He has their phylacteries or some such or maybe its because he is epic and the mind binding magic he uses to keep his living wizards in thrall was simply applied differently in their state of undeath? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 00:31:39
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
His presence alone should be more than enough. Two of his subordinates (tharachions whose names escape me at the moment; and I'm too lazy to grab Unclean to verify) once made a fool of themselves, and practically accepted their doom when Szass Tam learned of it. Even Xingax, a very powerful undead whose brilliance possibly matches Szass Tam's, fears his master...
A word or two from Szass Tam, not necessarily a threat, but a mere statement that bears weight, can be added to the equation. But again, his presence should be enough to encourage/force obedience.
Now it sounds like your real beef is with his lackeys in Neverwinter, for failing to be reverent enough. I agree that they didn't seem to take him seriously enough. There was exposition that made it sound like Sylora dreaded having to face the music with Tam. But once she opened her mouth, she seemed to have lost all perspective as to whom she was dealing with. Jestry never seemed to know what was going on in the first place.
As with most liches, Szass Tam exudes power that inspires awe and fear. His fellow archmages feel and acknowledge that. If powerful people can sense it, how much more a common slave? Jestry must be unbelievably stupid.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Now I'm really reaching. But what if it wasn't really Tam who was appearing to Sylora within the Dread Ring ash cloud? What if it was one of his other appointed representatives, serving as his proxy?
Well, one may employ that explanation to justify the inconsistent portrayal of his personality. You might want to suggest that to RAS. Authors listen to fans, most often than not.
He once made countless replicas/projections of himself during the prelude to his grab for sovereignty.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Does Tam send in emissaries, as with Lloth and her handmaidens?
Not as often, but yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I read up on the Thay of today in the FRCG. Apparently there is still a zulkirate system which consists of liches who specialize in necromancy, who are subservient to Tammy...
I wouldn't call it a zulkirate, as it's contradictory to what the zulkirate is supposed to represent. Each zulkir must be a true master of one school of magic; and the zulkirs are equal in station and thus bow to no one.
Just call Szass Tam's version of a zulkirate "Tam's Government." |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 31 May 2012 00:38:34 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 08:01:56
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Haha "Tam's Government" "Uncle Tammy wants your body!"
Well as you Dennis and Beast have been discussing the behaviour of Tam, it is interesting to note that RAS is the one who portrays Tam as slightly erratic while RLB portrays him as the consummate professional. Its more to the authors intrepretation of Tam really so discussing our lovable Zulkir is kinda moot... |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 08:04:10
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| As far as his behavour goes rather than the power or knowledge he has... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 08:11:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Well as you Dennis and Beast have been discussing the behaviour of Tam, it is interesting to note that RAS is the one who portrays Tam as slightly erratic while RLB portrays him as the consummate professional. Its more to the authors intrepretation of Tam really so discussing our lovable Zulkir is kinda moot...
Even in Red Magic, Red Ambition, and The Simbul's Gift, written by other authors and published years before Richard's The Haunted Lands, Szass Tam had been a model of complete composure. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2012 : 11:35:32
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| The memo did not reach RAS??? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 02:37:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
The memo did not reach RAS???
I heard BEAST kept it to himself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 03:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
The memo did not reach RAS???
BEAST? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2012 : 14:09:07
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Gah, what a lich of a problem!
At least liches can maintain civility when they want to... |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 04:27:56
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Y'all jest.
But RAS recently called me out on his Forums. About a year ago, I had passed on some news about the then-pending comic book project "Neverwinter Tales". Early ad copy indicated that it was going to detail the adventures of Drizzt & Co. during the 40-year time gap at the beginning of Gauntlgrym. And I said as much.
But it turned out that the comic book mini-series was really about the time period immediately following Gauntlgrym. When WOTC told RAS to jump ahead in the timeline for the novels, they wanted that time to stay "jumped"! 
I started fixing my reports in several different threads there. But I did't remember one.
RAS just got wind of this this past week. 
This was his response:
quote:
WTF?
"But maybe it will come as a small consolation that WOTC is planning on releasing a comic book/graphic novel series that details Drizzt & Co.'s adventures during the 42-year gap in Gauntlgrym."
Umm, BEAST, wtf are you talking about? No, seriously, WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???????????????????????
Bob
It's all good now, though. I explained it to him, and it's done.
I don't know if I'm gonna bother Bob with this, though. I like Tam's depiction in his books. He's a baddy, with a heavy presence, but not a large footprint. He's cool that way.
No, I will pass it on to him. It's not my place to filter. He should know, and then he and his editors can figure out what to do about it in the future.
I still think that RAS's Tam had an excuse to be the way he was, though. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 05:17:56
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Well i do like RAS portrayal of Greeth but I do prefer Tam to be done by RLB(sorry RAS but my choice personally, no offense meant)
Speaking of which do you notice that RLB has a lich in most of his novels...? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 06:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Speaking of which do you notice that RLB has a lich in most of his novels...?
And dragons, living and otherwise. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2012 : 18:38:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Well i do like RAS portrayal of Greeth but I do prefer Tam to be done by RLB(sorry RAS but my choice personally, no offense meant)
I don't know whose idea it was to have Bob write Tam. It might've been Bob's. But I suspect that it was probably the editors' doing, in so much that they wanted to integrate a lot of the big storylines of 4E in the Neverwinter region.
If my suspicions are correct, then Bob probably asked them to give him the highlights of Tam's character and persona.
If they didn't stress to him that Tam is always composed (well, emotionally speaking; as a lich, we know he must be decomposed physically!), then it's possible that that's why we seem to have an inconsistency in his characterization here.
It goes back to a less-than-complete handoff before the ball got rolling. I think it's probably best to nip the prob in the bud, right then, rather than to wait till the manuscript gets turned in and have the editors try to tweak it retroactively.
This is just my personal speculation, of course.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 02 Jun 2012 18:40:38 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
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Need to Know: The Lich
