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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2012 : 19:54:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Zhengyi, Witch-King of Vaasa, while not controlling a Dracolich (that I can remember) did control a dragon.
Aye, 'twould appear that Zhengyi only went around signing dragons up for future lichdom ("If Ever They Happened Upon My Lair") in order to see the Bloodstone Lands riddled with lots of liches of every variety (Promise of the Witch-King), as a final magical middle finger to his conquerors.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 01:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Really where Dennis? I have never heard of human liches controlling dracoliches before, but dracoliches in charge of human liches is much more believable...to think you cheat death only to have a dragon who also cheated death who now calls the shots...man give a necromancer a break...
It's been discussed in some other thread not too long ago. I forgot the others, but I do remember Sammaster; and two others, though they're not exactly liches---that necromancer in RotA who's a member of the Cult of the Dragon, and of course, Telamont, who still controls Malygris. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 01:41:13
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| Telamont being a lich has also been discussed in Candlekeep threads. Interesting, exciting, speculative ... but not canon, at least not yet. Cult of the Dragon is just one source which names some (human) liches and dracoliches, and describes some relationships where either commands or reports to the other, sometimes voluntarily, sometimes through methods of magical control. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 02:46:20
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| Well...I don't think the Lich Template in 3.x can be coupled with the Shade template...I'll have to check up on that though as it is only a first thought. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 03:02:33
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There are examples of deity-order beings who happen to be (or become) liches. I doubt you'd want to make shade-liches accessible to players, but there's always room for unique individuals and unique circumstances to produce such beings - and Telamont seems unique to me.
Blood fiends are a combination of fiend and undead (vampire) templates; they're categorically lumped into Abominations. I think the comparison is somewhat relevant, since to my mind Shades (linked to the Demiplane of Shadowfell, lol) are functionally similar to Outsiders. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 03:02:34
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Well, novels don't always follow game rules.
Lichdom is only one of the options Telamont considered embracing once his shadowstuff body expires; it's not mentioned in any sources that he'd actually choose it. For someone like him, there are many other ways to gain immortality... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 03:06:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
<snip> are functionally similar to Outsiders.
This is the part I'm curious about...still trying to dig out my 3.x material...but I think a Lich can't also be an outsider of any sort. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 03:06:50
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Shades already enjoy immortality or great longevity, easily centuries or millennia.
So why would Telamont be compelled to seek immortality ... unless he was dying? I think it far more likely that if Telamont is indeed "more" than a normal shade, it's because he sought more power rather than more life. Assuming the novelized descriptions aren't what D&D would simply treat as higher experience levels. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 Jun 2012 03:07:25 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 03:12:58
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Ok...Lich MUST be a Humanoid...and changes to Undead.
Shade must be a Humaoid first...and changes to Outsider.
So the two (by the strict reading of rules) can't be used together.
However, I'll try to find the materail on Suel Liches (who are actually a different sort of critter all together!).
EDIT:
Nope, Suel Liches are Undead too... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 24 Jun 2012 03:16:51 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 03:32:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Shades already enjoy immortality or great longevity, easily centuries or millennia.
So why would Telamont be compelled to seek immortality ... unless he was dying? I think it far more likely that if Telamont is indeed "more" than a normal shade, it's because he sought more power rather than more life. Assuming the novelized descriptions aren't what D&D would simply treat as higher experience levels.
From Lords of Darkness, p. 82:
quote:
Well over two millennia old, Telamont preserves his life by means of powerful magic, such as wish spells. This process has been made easier by virtue of the fact that he is no longer human, but rather an outsider. The natural life span of a shade is many times longer than that of an ordinary human. However, Telamont acknowledges reluctantly that as his outsider body begins to fail, stronger measures are required to keep him alive. He has not yet decided on the best means of continuing his existence, but the Shadovars return to Faerūn offers a wealth of possibilities, including transformation into an undead creature.
*Highlights are mine. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 03:57:39
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Undead doesn't mean Lich...there are far more powerful sorts of undead than a Lich.
He could even transform himself into an Undead native to the plane of Shadow. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 04:05:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Undead doesn't mean Lich...there are far more powerful sorts of undead than a Lich.
Precisely. That's why I mentioned lichdom is just one of his options, and not the only option. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 06:23:10
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| Yes but becoming a shadow only? That does not seem like something an accomplished archmage like Telamont would do, maybe he could as an option create a sort of shadow-infused golem which he can possess and use as a physical body? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 13:31:29
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3.x Nightshade...Monster Manual I
That is an option for him. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2012 : 17:23:04
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| A lich is a fearsome creature and one of my favorite undead too. I think my favorite lichnee I've read about are Azimer from the old grey box campaign setting adventure and there's also a few in the 2E Undermountain sourcebook. Both these books describe a lich as a unique individual. Like how Nester somehow botched his transformation and is only a pair of arms and eyeballs or whatnot. Azimer is flat out insane, evil, but won't necessarily turn the PC's into a greasy stain on the floor etc etc. Makes for more interesting an encounter with unique beings as opposed to just another humanoid with the lich template slapped on it. Hmm, should almost ask THO, maybe she has a few more interesting undead lich types the Knights have enounctered. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2012 : 01:04:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Yes but becoming a shadow only? That does not seem like something an accomplished archmage like Telamont would do, maybe he could as an option create a sort of shadow-infused golem which he can possess and use as a physical body?
That was probably what he deemed best when he and his city were stuck in the Plane of Shadow after their escape from Netheril's Fall. Or it could be an inevitable, natural process for being exposed to shadows for a very long time. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 06:15:29
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| Is there even anything left of Telamont? To my thinking and thanks to Paul S Kemp, he is more shadowstuff than anything else, its his very being, could lichdom even work?? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 16:27:43
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He's made of pure shadhowstuff now. And he once told Brennus he lost his humanity a long time ago. Regardless, he's an excellent innovator. He might be able to find a new way of achieving lichdom. Rules don't normally apply to powerful archwizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2012 : 06:06:47
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| And if Telamont has, or is going to achieve such an innovative and lofty goal, just imagine the heights of which Larloch has already achieved... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2012 : 22:58:51
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I am just re-reading a bunch of lore regarding the North (typical research for me while doing maps), and I came across Wulgreth again (in the Volo's Guide), and it occurred to me: There is an unbelievably easy fix that would still work and not break any continuity...
The second Wulgreth was a clone of the first, 'awakened' when Karsus dropped that Heavy Magic on his head. 
That not only explains the name, but also why they have some history in common. It makes perfect sense - if a mage becomes a Lich - and doesn't destroy his clones fist - one will activate upon his 'death'. Since Wulgreth1 never meant to become a lich, it's obvious he wouldn't have destroyed any duplicates he might have had. He probably stashed the clone under Ascalhorn (Hellgate Keep), which the Elves were only just starting to build at that time.
Also, as we know from the Manshoon wars, when more then one incarnation of a person exists they will be drawn together (and try to destroy each other). This does not happen - as we know from the vampire Manshoon - if one is already dead. So the first Wulgreth inadvertently becomes a lich, and gets stuck living near the karsestone because it became his default phylactory. The second one wakes up, and is drawn to the same vicinity, feeling a very mild compulsion. The death of the first should have 'muffled' (altered) its existence enough for the clone to not be affected by its presence, but the Karsetone itself amplifies everything magical near it, including the lich bound to it. So although Wulgreth2 should not have felt the 'destroy' compulsion, the magic in Karse was still great enough to give him a very mild, subconscious urge to wind up there regardless.
The first Wulgreth is probably well aware of the second (or at least did, until he was too far gone into demi-lichdom), but the second one probably gets very confused when the first one is mentioned (because as far as he knows, he's the only one). Not that much of this matters, since the first one is destroyed now. It still bothers me how Troy Denning portrayed the much older, more powerful one as a push-over, and the second one as 'nigh unstoppable' (even Elminster was running from him).
And now to bring this back to the topic it was on when last this thread reared its ugly undead head:
After reading book2 of the RotAW, its fairly obvious that nearly ALL of the Princes have entered some form of lichdom, and some of them are pretty far along into some sort of state of shadow demi-lichdom (Telemont definitely is). The book literally states that their bodies are illusion - most of them aren't much more then an atrophied black heart and a few organs (or just a spine or a ribcage). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Jul 2012 23:03:07 |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2012 : 02:25:57
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Awesome markustay I need to read up to find out the passage of el running from the demilich
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Purple you say?!
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2012 : 07:02:50
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I believe their hearts (except Telamont) is their weakness. The phaerimm, who pretended to be the Chosen, almost incapacitated the shade princes when their 'silverfire copy' hit the princes' hearts (which Telamont effortlessly removed). Also, I believe the reason Vangey was unable to 'kill' Rivalen despite having literally blasted him to pieces was because he wasn't able to crush his heart, which Rivalen must have protected by all manner of shadow magic at his disposal. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2012 : 14:09:49
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That and Rivalen did fall into the crack in the ground that was also spewing shadowstuff. I think he did it on purpose to escape.
Still a more pressing matter would be their own mortality nagging at them despite the years they have. I wonder if a phaerimm became a lich what would be its first actions... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12011 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2012 : 00:18:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I wonder if a phaerimm became a lich what would be its first actions...
A somewhat interesting question I'd have would be how do phaerimm feel about liches culturally (and in this I mean phaerimm liches and non-phaerimm liches)? Are they celebrated in their culture? Are they reviled and cast out? Are they seen as valuable components that when chopped up can fuel numerous powerful spells? I mean not everyone would necessarily have the same viewpoints on immortality through undeath that humans do. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2012 : 01:05:19
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It seems like power (and of course, survival) is all that matters to them. So I don't think they care that much if power is achieved/enhanced through undeath. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2012 : 08:53:59
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| Does anyone know why liches must only have red points of light as their eyes? I mean i know its in the srd thing but cant they be a colour of another sort? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 10:08:49
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Can a lich possess any body to return to unlife? The srd does not state what body just that the lich can possess a body to come back...
From the novel Neverwinter we know that Valindra Shadowmantle wanted to bring back Greeth in the body of the slain pit fiend Beealtimatuche... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 16:43:09
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I think according to RAW, a fiend's body dissipates after a time when it slain in the Prime Material. It wouldn't make sense for anything to possess the 'dead body' of a pit fiend, because that pit Fiend s going to regenerate back on his home turf.
However, there are exceptions to every rule, and it is possible someone figured out a way to keep a fiend's remains around a bit longer. This brings me to my next point...
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Does anyone know why liches must only have red points of light as their eyes? I mean i know its in the srd thing but cant they be a colour of another sort?
I assume that everything in the SRD/RAW is the 'common, garden variety' version of everything (even if the thing in question is rare or unique). DMs/Writers are free to create whatever they want. This isn't as much of a conceit as this sort of 'customization' usually turns out to be*, because canonically, every Lich is unique, as is the process they undergo to achieve lichdom.
*Like Drow who don't lose their powers on the surface back in 1e/2e. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Oct 2012 16:43:47 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 22:22:26
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Liches in the Realms or in general? If 'tis the former, I'm not sure. In the fantasy firmament, however, I vaguely recall some mention of liches having bluish or silvery points of light as eyes. Might be one in WoW books, but I can't be sure exactly. I'll get back to this post when I recall where I read it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 03:18:36
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| @Markustay: So that means a lich can possess the corpse of just about any creature to come back? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Need to Know: The Lich
