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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 02:55:37
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| For myself personally i do think the lich can possess any corpse he/she finds. A human lich stuck in his phylactery and the only corpse around is a ancient dragon's corpse...(evil maniacal laugh) |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 03:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
For myself personally i do think the lich can possess any corpse he/she finds. A human lich stuck in his phylactery and the only corpse around is a ancient dragon's corpse...(evil maniacal laugh).
The necromancer Sidi, aka Leso Varen, from Feist's Riftwar Saga, is close to being a lich. While he didn't prefer using mere bones of a dead person, he's definitely dead, hid his soul in a vessel (like a phyllactery), and presumably could possess any living person. [Until his destruction, he was able to possess 2 men of great importance.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 04:41:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
For myself personally i do think the lich can possess any corpse he/she finds. A human lich stuck in his phylactery and the only corpse around is a ancient dragon's corpse...(evil maniacal laugh).
The necromancer Sidi, aka Leso Varen, from Feist's Riftwar Saga, is close to being a lich. While he didn't prefer using mere bones of a dead person, he's definitely dead, hid his soul in a vessel (like a phyllactery), and presumably could possess any living person. [Until his destruction, he was able to possess 2 men of great importance.]
True. And it's also true that Midkemia was born thru roleplaying... That said, Feist does a lot of things that don't even come close to matching D&D rules. Heck, one of his books was built on a plot that never would have happened in D&D -- Arutha, Jimmy, and the rest would have never had to go to Moraelin if any of the priests in Krondor had been able to cast neutralize poison. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 06:01:54
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| Thus a lich CAN possess any dead corpse he/she finds?? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 03:58:24
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Not really. Lichdom, as noted by other scribes, is a very personal process. Many, if not most of them, have it as a contingency---'activated' at the precipice of death. Why risk a few seconds to find other corpse when his/her own would be more than enough? Besides, liches are an arrogant bunch. I doubt any of them would choose to inhabit a pig's corpse, or any other lesser creatures'. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12013 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 13:10:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
For myself personally i do think the lich can possess any corpse he/she finds. A human lich stuck in his phylactery and the only corpse around is a ancient dragon's corpse...(evil maniacal laugh).
The necromancer Sidi, aka Leso Varen, from Feist's Riftwar Saga, is close to being a lich. While he didn't prefer using mere bones of a dead person, he's definitely dead, hid his soul in a vessel (like a phyllactery), and presumably could possess any living person. [Until his destruction, he was able to possess 2 men of great importance.]
True. And it's also true that Midkemia was born thru roleplaying... That said, Feist does a lot of things that don't even come close to matching D&D rules. Heck, one of his books was built on a plot that never would have happened in D&D -- Arutha, Jimmy, and the rest would have never had to go to Moraelin if any of the priests in Krondor had been able to cast neutralize poison.
Hmmm, I did not know that Feist's stuff came about through roleplaying. I can see it, especially since his writing came about right around the big growth of the game in the early 80's. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12013 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2012 : 13:24:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Can a lich possess any body to return to unlife? The srd does not state what body just that the lich can possess a body to come back...
From the novel Neverwinter we know that Valindra Shadowmantle wanted to bring back Greeth in the body of the slain pit fiend Beealtimatuche...
Personally, I'd prefer to limit the ability of liches to reform from "any" dead body. Otherwise, what prevents a lich from becoming a dracolich (and in 3/3.5 dracoliches are forced to use dragon bodies), etc.... The general rule I'd put in place would be that they could reform in bodies of humanoid, monstrous humanoid, giant. I didn't particularly care for the ability of 3/3.5 regular liches being able to reform without having a body available. It made them a bit too powerful, and it also kind of removed that interesting thing where the party finds a treasure chamber that contains a phylactery and they haul off with it.... kill a goblin on the way out... and thus release the lich and retain possession of its phylactery and thus draw its ire. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 06:12:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hmmm, I did not know that Feist's stuff came about through roleplaying. I can see it, especially since his writing came about right around the big growth of the game in the early 80's.
The original trilogy was simply that, original. His later works, on the other hand, were greatly influenced by roleplaying. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 07:47:51
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| @sleyvas: Personally I like that approach too. Its also very sensible plus i think that most if not all realms authors,at least to my knowledge, prefer their liches coming back through corpse possesion as opposed to simply growing a new one. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 01:34:25
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It's a matter of safety precautions, too. If a human wizard chooses to inhabit the bones of say, a dragon, there's a risk that the soul of the dragon may return in ways the wizard couldn't have anticipated, or could subtly influence him. On the other hand, using his own bones diminishes that unnecessary risk. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 04:07:36
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Perhaps, but if the dragon has passed on to its own afterlife, taking over its body should be no biggie...moreover that would mean liches who come back would have to watch out for the souls of the bodies they possess as well?
A human lich returning to unlife by taking over the body of a say a warrior would have to look out for said warrior's spirit? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 04:45:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
For myself personally i do think the lich can possess any corpse he/she finds. A human lich stuck in his phylactery and the only corpse around is a ancient dragon's corpse...(evil maniacal laugh).
The necromancer Sidi, aka Leso Varen, from Feist's Riftwar Saga, is close to being a lich. While he didn't prefer using mere bones of a dead person, he's definitely dead, hid his soul in a vessel (like a phyllactery), and presumably could possess any living person. [Until his destruction, he was able to possess 2 men of great importance.]
True. And it's also true that Midkemia was born thru roleplaying... That said, Feist does a lot of things that don't even come close to matching D&D rules. Heck, one of his books was built on a plot that never would have happened in D&D -- Arutha, Jimmy, and the rest would have never had to go to Moraelin if any of the priests in Krondor had been able to cast neutralize poison.
I couldn't care less whether he follows D&D rules or has his work divorced from D&D as much as possible.
If we look closer and compare Midkemia with FR (or the whole D&D line), there are many things impossible/very difficult to do or accomplish in one, and quite feasible in the other. Teleportation, for instance. Teleporting to long distances several times is not that easy for Faerunian mages, yet Miranda, and later Magnus and Pug are able to do it at will, anytime of the day, anywhere. Yes, shadowmages are able to shadow-walk at long distance, which is just like teleporting. But they're limited only to areas where there are shadows. Conversely, divination is very rare in Midkemia---only Gamina and her foster father are able to practice it. And needless to say, such aspect of magic is very common in the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Perhaps, but if the dragon has passed on to its own afterlife, taking over its body should be no biggie...moreover that would mean liches who come back would have to watch out for the souls of the bodies they possess as well?
A human lich returning to unlife by taking over the body of a say a warrior would have to look out for said warrior's spirit?
One's body and spirit have an intimate connection that sometimes transcends even death. That's why ghosts usually linger/prowl near the remains of their bodies. By magical intervention, arcane or divine, magical accident, or even by sheer force of will, one's spirit may be able to return to his own body, or whatever's left of it. Hence, the risk that the wizard would have to consider.
I'll expound on your example...What if said warrior is a favored servant of Lathander, or any other deities that detest undeath? And said god thinks it a desecration that someone uses the bones of his servant for vile sorcery? Do you think he'd treat the wizard kindly? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 14 Oct 2012 04:49:36 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 03:13:38
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That would mean even Szass Tam would have to be wary of every body he possesed to come back to unlife, even Larloch. Lets say by the amount of bodies they do possess, that would mean many evil and good gods would not treat them kindly, not to mention the hundreds of dracoliches who possess the corpses of their brethren to return, would also have to deal with their draconic deities if they are religious.
Besides the gods are more or less aloof now than they were before, and somehow I dont see them treating liches unkindly simply because their corpses are being used. Even if it is a desecration, moving againts one, say Larloch who took over the body of a particularly devout believer of Amaunator, would be suicidal at best...Plus gods/goddeses have better things to do...Doesn't some god who detests undeath also has to keep its eyes on the machinations of other deities? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 03:38:13
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If there's anything to be expected of gods (whatever the setting), it's their constant fickle-mindedness...At one point, taking an interest in a devout or two, at another, totally ignoring them. You're probably right about Szass Tam and Larloch; despite being non-divine, they could still make a deity think twice before confronting them. However, they're in the upper echelon of the 'lich society,' more an exception, so are Aumvor, Sammaster, and a few others.
Also, I suppose it has something to do with retaining one's identity. A lich's past is as important to him as his present, a part of his identity. Having something (bones) from his former self somehow reminds him of who he was once, a point of reference on how far he's improved in the art of arcane magic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 22:40:32
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As I think i pointed out before, Liches who take over bodies that are not their own are stuck in a lesser "wight-like" body. Until they can either repossess their old body or undergo a ritual to turn their wight body into abody similar to their original.
This is a similar case with Dracoliches that can't possess their orginal bodies, they are stuck in a proto-dracolich form until they can either transform into or find their original form.
Of course there will be many exceptions that break this rule (Shoon VII, Ioulaum etc.) and inhabit bodies that not their originals but this is more often than not a rather unusual situation. I imagine in Arklem's Greeth, Valindra's plan for his body is quite a far out one...one that most 'sane' liches would not easily consider.
But when the crazy, desperate and powerful start to align....well...all sorts of things become possible. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 04:31:51
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| That is why I think the 1d10 days was suited to this. If possessing a new body took such a long time, perhaps the body is being "altered" to suit the lich. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 08:20:52
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| Hmm, I wonder how do lichfiends protect their phylactery? Their home is hostile and the inhabitants would kill you just for a lark, where would they keep their souls and how would they do it? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 21:43:44
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Probabaly they made their own pocket dimension and hid it there. The smaller, the better; easier to monitor and protect. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 02:23:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Probabaly they made their own pocket dimension and hid it there. The smaller, the better; easier to monitor and protect.
I once had a lich NPC in my Realms who cast a random dimensional shifting ability on her phylactery. It was triggered each and every time any being -- aside from the lich herself -- came within close proximity of the artifact. When a stranger not previously known to the phylactery approached, it would automatically resonant with planar energies and then rapidly shift into a new [and randomly chosen] dimension or plane, far from it's original point of origin.
It led my characters trying to destroy the lich on something of a merry chase across the Great Wheel.  |
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Edited by - The Sage on 20 Oct 2012 04:03:54 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 04:01:02
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Interesting. A bit similar to how Sidi placed contingency on the jar that held his soul. Although the hiding place was rather unremarkable, albeit unexpected, and probably would have worked to his advantage way better had Pug and his companions not been clever, not to mention powerful. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 07:00:25
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| Wow Sage, that does seem like a viable option...Was the phylactery able to "sense" where it was going? It would not have been good for it to land somewhere, lets just say, unpleasant... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 08:42:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Wow Sage, that does seem like a viable option...Was the phylactery able to "sense" where it was going?
In most cases, no. It was purely random. Which might prove to be something of an inconvenience for the lich as well, especially if she needed to access the phylactery in a hurry.
Although, I did later suggest that she could provide subtle telepathic hints about where she would like the phylactery to end up. But the random arcane casting on the artifact was almost a kind of sentience unto itself -- finicky to the degree about whether it would actually "heed" the lich's thoughts regarding possible destinations for travel.
An unused portion of my notes for this campaign would've eventually established the phylactery as more of a threat than the lich herself. The phylactery would've become the core of some new archlich variant -- but my theory never really progressed past the point of suggesting that planar energies and the lingering lich's soul inside the phylactery were responsible for the transformation. The notes still exist, of course, in one of my many notebooks, but I've never had the chance to sit down and work on it further.
quote:
It would not have been good for it to land somewhere, lets just say, unpleasant...
It did, once. Jesting somewhat for the sake of my players during a dark portion of the game, I once said that the phylactery jumped from the cavern beneath Yhep that they had been exploring, and briefly ended up on the iron desk of Dispater! Before it then shimmered away in planar energies... ending up elsewhere. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 05:02:04
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| Haha Dispater paranoia would have gone through the roof with that...Still you make the phylactery sound almost like it was more the baddie than the lich. Kinda like a One Ring and Sauron thing, but the One Ring has its own agenda. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 07:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Haha Dispater paranoia would have gone through the roof with that...Still you make the phylactery sound almost like it was more the baddie than the lich.
That was kind of my plan. But the group of players who were part of the campaign, unfortunately broke up before I had time to develop my ideas about the lich's phylactery further. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 07:18:36
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| Hmm we have tons of liches in the realms but so few lich organizations (except the Twisted Rune) I wonder how a purely lich organization would go on, maybe the get together to have a cup of tea? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 07:27:11
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No liches drink tea except Szass Tam and Aumvor. [The former mixes it with blood, and the latter, with pig's fats.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2012 : 09:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Hmm we have tons of liches in the realms but so few lich organizations (except the Twisted Rune) I wonder how a purely lich organization would go on, maybe the get together to have a cup of tea?
Another tidbit that I never really did much with [again, because the impetus to do so was lost when the campaign group fell apart], was to hint of a secretive cult of liches hiding among the "caretakers" of the Dustmen faction on Sigil.
They were originally to be a kind of off-shoot of the Twisted Rune, who would've each been lured by the prospect of being part of a greater organisation that willingly proved access to the recent dead -- upon which they would have all kinds of opportunities to experiment, and using any methods they wished. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 25 Oct 2012 09:16:41 |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 03:15:19
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I have a query regarding the Liches form in undeath.
Mostly this is about the non-physical replacements like eyes but it could extend to stuff like limbs. Would a blind wizard gain sight upon becoming a lich?....or are the red pinpoints of light that the lich sees through only replacing what the wizard had in life? Same goes with voice and hearing which are normally reproduced by the magic of the lich transformation.
My instinct is that a 1-legged wizard would also be a 1-legged lich but when it comes to eyes and ears etc. I'm not sure what would happen.
Thoughts? |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 05:21:51
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Most physical human faculties are replaceable by magic. I never heard of a blind, deaf, or limp lich. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 09:32:14
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@Eli: I think the lich to be does gain sight/hearing and perhaps speech. For missing limbs that does pose a problem but can be remedied by getting a complete body.
For creatures who regain their sight after becoming liches, a prime example would be Hephaestus the red dragon in "The Ghost King" by RAS. After being blinded by the destruction of the Crystal Shard, he later becomes a dracolich(involuntarily) and regains his sight. An important fact must be noted is that he was not born blind but became blind. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Need to Know: The Lich
