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Originally posted by George Krashos

I like my liches to have a purpose. I think there is a reason that most liches portrayed in the sources are human, and that is because the Realms has always portrayed humans as a race as ambitious, in a hurry and power-grasping. In the (in relative terms) short lifespan of a human, especially one who stands at the cusp of real power through mastery of the Art, thoughts of immortality loom large. Lichdom is the most common and "easy to learn" path to this.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Markustay

I'm starting to realize I no longer belong here.

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So you're saying you want variant liches to simply exist, without being grounded in the lore? Because that's what Krash was saying -- don't create something just so that it exists, without being connected to the setting.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Given that illusionists have a penchant for phantasms, why not some sort of ghost-lich? The point was I didn't want just a smaller version of a regular lich (although that is rather creepy, IMO) - I want to see differences between them... COOL differences. As I said earlier, the same way in which RL had different stats for different race vampires.

I think the sentience of a gnome illusionist residing inside a permanent illusion would be kinda cool... maybe its just me.

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Originally posted by Markustay

AFAIK, no company has ever been able to stay-afloat re-releasing 'outdated' products. What I've come to realize is that the market has moved forward, and most of FR's current fanbase have not. There are simply not enough of us 'old timers' left to keep things afloat, and I have yet to see anything that will appeal to the younger generation (who all seemed to be quite familiar with Golarion).

So YES, I like 'tropey stuff' too... but thats not what FR needs right now. Once again, I applaud the 4e team for at least trying to do something.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

Hmm, I think I'm a bit old school and tropey. I like my liches to have a purpose. I think there is a reason that most liches portrayed in the sources are human, and that is because the Realms has always portrayed humans as a race as ambitious, in a hurry and power-grasping. In the (in relative terms) short lifespan of a human, especially one who stands at the cusp of real power through mastery of the Art, thoughts of immortality loom large. Lichdom is the most common and "easy to learn" path to this.

I think that gnome liches while feasible don't fit with the standard racial template (heck, stereotype if you will) and this is reinforced even further by Ed's latest Forging the Realms piece. The question that must always be asked whenever anyone is 'creative' in the Realms, is "why is this the way it is?". Why would a gnome illusionist want to embrace lichdom? Why would any gnome want to embrace lichdom? With the elves, Ed provided a wonderful, in game and in setting reason for the baelnorn. If a Realms product or novel came up with a really good, lore-invested, FR-grounded reason for a gnome lich, I'd jump all over it. If it was just done for variety and so as not to be "boring and tropey", I call "Meh". YMMV of course.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

To answer you question about gnome liches, its a simple matter of game mechanics. Spells dealing with undead and undeath are Necromancy spells. Illusionists can't cast necromancy spells.

A possible way around this is by creating a gnome lich who lived in Myth Drannor and studied under an Elven Nelluonkkar Dualist (Illusionist/Necromancer specialist mage).

Otherwise, I'd argue an Illusinist gnome desirous of maintaining his existence would look for ways to do it that do not involve undeath. I guess it might be possible in some way for a gnome illusionist to become an Arch-Lich. The means of becoming an Arch-Lich have never been clearly defined as far as I know.

Also, the psionicist lich can be applied to most races as well.

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Originally posted by Quale

Most exotic lich we've met was a cyclops. There's also a derro lich in Underdark.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and on "odd" liches, I also recall a dracolich that was one of the dragon men from Vaasa (forget their name) or maybe it was a half dragon. Not in a book mind you, but think it was an NPC posted on their web site.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Quale

Most exotic lich we've met was a cyclops. There's also a derro lich in Underdark.

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Really? I'd be interested to see what they did with him after thinking about the possibilities above. What resource, do you know?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and on "odd" liches, I also recall a dracolich that was one of the dragon men from Vaasa (forget their name) or maybe it was a half dragon. Not in a book mind you, but think it was an NPC posted on their web site.

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I seem to recall a big debate about that one... Though it's been a long time, and I may be misremembering things.

The debate centered around whether or not a half-dragon could become a dracolich. Under the 3.x rules, it is technically possible. The 2E write-up and all lore about dracoliches, however, makes it clear that dracoliches are true, full-blooded dragons who embrace a form of lichdom.

It was another of those places in 3E where the lore and the rules contradicted each other. Another was the write-up for lythari, saying they were lycanthropes -- despite the fact that the only thing they had in common with lycanthropes was a beast shape. They didn't label song dragons, swanmays, or other changers as lycanthropes, but they did for lythari.

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Originally posted by Eli the Tanner

Here's another example for the Lich brew....Grugaran aka "The Dodkong", a Stone Giant Lich who rules over Cairnheim.

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Well, D&D has presented a vampire variant for every race; a few great ideas (I like dwarven vamps being able to meld into stone instead of going misty) but, as usual, carried to ridiculous D&D extremes of contrived symmetry. And elven baelnorn do suggest that other non-human lich types are possible. Indeed, I believe an ancient dwarven priest-lich can be found in the Undermountain: Stardock adventure.

I think the old 2E-era oppositional schools shouldn't be dismissed so easily, though. Becoming a lich may simply require access to necromantic magic without exception, and unfortunately that's not usually possible for illusionists. I also can't seriously imagine gnomish liches, although I do suppose they'd be able to fashion unsurpassed gemstone phylacteries. Halfling liches seem laughable and unlikely, especially since halfling clerics traditionally have a bit of a druidic view on things.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I'm still a bit annoyed about people thinking I wanted to create alternate liches just for the 'kewlness' factor. And here I thought people knew me by now. What I don't want is for designer/authors to automatically give us the SAME lich every time. As GK said, if it can contribute to the story somehow, then do it. If you are doing it just to do it, then think things through (but don't simply dismiss it - an alternate take on an old monster could spark some new ideas for a story).

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Ayrik

Well, D&D has presented a vampire variant for every race; a few great ideas (I like dwarven vamps being able to meld into stone instead of going misty) but, as usual, carried to ridiculous D&D extremes of contrived symmetry. And elven baelnorn do suggest that other non-human lich types are possible. Indeed, I believe an ancient dwarven priest-lich can be found in the Undermountain: Stardock adventure.

I think the old 2E-era oppositional schools shouldn't be dismissed so easily, though. Becoming a lich may simply require access to necromantic magic without exception, and unfortunately that's not usually possible for illusionists. I also can't seriously imagine gnomish liches, although I do suppose they'd be able to fashion unsurpassed gemstone phylacteries. Halfling liches seem laughable and unlikely, especially since halfling clerics traditionally have a bit of a druidic view on things.

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I agree on the halfling bit. It would be totally outside their societal view. The only way you'd have a halfling lich would be if he was a psycopath raised outside their society or something.... and generally that's not inclined toward the ordered paths necessary to achieve spellcasting greatness and more towards the nature of some kind of lunatic that...... hmmmm, where was Belkar Bitterleaf of "the order of the the stick" raised?

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