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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 17:02:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I find that the more 'mysteries are unveiled', the less useful the setting becomes to me. {sigh}
IMG, LoD is - or isn't - whatever I say it is, novels be damned.
That's rather too dismissive. You haven't even read the novel yet.
Do consider also that the Realms isn't just for those who game. I for one couldn't care for the game; I'm here because I love (most of) the novels.
Besides, no one is stopping you to create your own mysteries when you find the revealed ones not to your taste. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 18 Feb 2013 17:04:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 18:07:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm not sure if that's even a spoiler. I mean, we all know what kind of creature Lod is.
Having only read a couple of 4E novels, I had no idea what Lod was.
Well, let's look at the obvious: the cover art! Months ago, on the same day the cover art was released, someone asked Richard if it was Lod--and he said yes.
I've not seen the cover art, either. I read all of the 4E setting material originally available, a couple of the novels, and then decided not to read more. I've not even looked at the books in the store, which is quite different behavior for me, compared to earlier times (I disregarded many of the 3E books because of horrible cover art).
I'm going to have to check out the Brotherhood of the Griffon books, I think, but I'm not doing that any time soon. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 22:45:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I find that the more 'mysteries are unveiled', the less useful the setting becomes to me. {sigh}
IMG, LoD is - or isn't - whatever I say it is, novels be damned.
That's rather too dismissive. You haven't even read the novel yet.
Do consider also that the Realms isn't just for those who game. I for one couldn't care for the game; I'm here because I love (most of) the novels.
Besides, no one is stopping you to create your own mysteries when you find the revealed ones not to your taste.
Well, I got into the Realms as a DM first, and rather reluctantly at that. I didn't become a fan of the novels until much later.
And if I have to 'make it all up' (biting my tongue here...), then why oh why do I need a published setting? 
Perhaps this part would be better-off in the "why I love the Realms" thread, but I fell in love with the Realms because of all those millions of little mysteries. The 3e/4e presentation of 'omnipotent third person' knocked all the fun out of the setting, as far as I'm concerned; the uncertainty factor was a HUGE selling point for me.
And ATM, I am taking a break from Realms fiction for awhile, until I see where the setting is headed. I'm growing tremendously bored with drow and Liches (and vampires for that matter). I want to hear about 'normal folk' for a change.
*Grammatical Correction |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2013 14:43:39 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 15:03:05
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Meh. If I want "normal folk" (as you so aptly put it), I'd go somewhere else--there are so many books out there that brim with "ordinariness." I read FR (and many other settings) to see something or someone out of the ordinary.
You don't go to a fancy restaurant just to order tap water.
[We have a saying back home: "Don't dine at Harold's if all you want is rice."] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 15:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm not sure if that's even a spoiler. I mean, we all know what kind of creature Lod is.
Having only read a couple of 4E novels, I had no idea what Lod was.
Well, let's look at the obvious: the cover art! Months ago, on the same day the cover art was released, someone asked Richard if it was Lod--and he said yes.
I've not seen the cover art, either. I read all of the 4E setting material originally available, a couple of the novels, and then decided not to read more. I've not even looked at the books in the store, which is quite different behavior for me, compared to earlier times (I disregarded many of the 3E books because of horrible cover art).
I'm going to have to check out the Brotherhood of the Griffon books, I think, but I'm not doing that any time soon.
thanks for mentioning prophet of the dead. While I'm not in favor of what was done with Mulhorand/Unther/Chessenta, I have enjoyed reading more about the doings of the Brotherhood of the Griffin. I was much happier when they travelled up to Rashemen. I hadn't realized the next book was out, and I've been wanting to see what happens next. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2013 : 15:25:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Meh. If I want "normal folk" (as you so aptly put it), I'd go somewhere else--there are so many books out there that brim with "ordinariness." I read FR (and many other settings) to see something or someone out of the ordinary.
You don't go to a fancy restaurant just to order tap water.
So FR is now the RPG equivalent of "a fancy restaurant"?
And here I thought the elitist attitude had gone away. The WotC guys really have their work cut out for them - what I thought was going to be very hard may just turn out to be completely impossible.
The fanciest restaurant I ever went to (within the US, and not as part of a political fund-raiser) was in Las Vegas - I spent over $200 just for me and my wife. We went to McDonalds afterwards because we were still hungry.
Apologies to the mods and everyone else for the complete and utter off-topicness. I must have re-written and edited this response at least 20 times... but I just had to say something. This will be my last post in this thread (unless I can contribute to the real topic at some point in the future).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Feb 2013 15:27:49 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2013 : 12:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm not sure if that's even a spoiler. I mean, we all know what kind of creature Lod is.
Having only read a couple of 4E novels, I had no idea what Lod was.
Well, let's look at the obvious: the cover art! Months ago, on the same day the cover art was released, someone asked Richard if it was Lod--and he said yes.
I've not seen the cover art, either. I read all of the 4E setting material originally available, a couple of the novels, and then decided not to read more. I've not even looked at the books in the store, which is quite different behavior for me, compared to earlier times (I disregarded many of the 3E books because of horrible cover art).
I'm going to have to check out the Brotherhood of the Griffon books, I think, but I'm not doing that any time soon.
thanks for mentioning prophet of the dead. While I'm not in favor of what was done with Mulhorand/Unther/Chessenta, I have enjoyed reading more about the doings of the Brotherhood of the Griffin. I was much happier when they travelled up to Rashemen. I hadn't realized the next book was out, and I've been wanting to see what happens next.
You're welcome, sleyvas! I gather you already read The Masked Witches? If so, then you'll find PotD as satisfying, or likely more.
In case you're interested, I posted my spoiler-free review in the novels section. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 13:58:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Meh. If I want "normal folk" (as you so aptly put it), I'd go somewhere else--there are so many books out there that brim with "ordinariness." I read FR (and many other settings) to see something or someone out of the ordinary.
You don't go to a fancy restaurant just to order tap water.
So FR is now the RPG equivalent of "a fancy restaurant"?
And here I thought the elitist attitude had gone away. The WotC guys really have their work cut out for them - what I thought was going to be very hard may just turn out to be completely impossible.
The fanciest restaurant I ever went to (within the US, and not as part of a political fund-raiser) was in Las Vegas - I spent over $200 just for me and my wife. We went to McDonalds afterwards because we were still hungry.
Apologies to the mods and everyone else for the complete and utter off-topicness. I must have re-written and edited this response at least 20 times... but I just had to say something. This will be my last post in this thread (unless I can contribute to the real topic at some point in the future).
If the metaphor offended you, then consider this: “You don't go to a bar—any kind of bar—just to order tap water.” (Both can quench your thirst, but you know the difference.)
And what exactly did you mean by “ordinary”? Like Elminster without silverfire and Mystra? Drizzt without Twinkle (or is it Sparkle? Glitter?), his pet cheetah (tiger? Panther?), and his exceedingly good luck? Aoth without his magic tattoos, spells, and Jet? Mirt without his body fats?
There's a reason the genre is called “fantasy.” It's for people who want to see the ordinary become extraordinary, and the impossible, possible.
Also, I fail to understand the “tired of liches” part. How many FR novels have featured liches, or any other undead for that matter? Heck, mostly they are Richard's and RAS's. And those two are not the only authors in this setting.
Lastly, for the record, I'm no *elitist. Those are people who self-righteously think that D&D (not just the Realms) and all RPG-based/inspired novels are no-brainer. I remember someone (Entreri, I think) posted something about eating McDonald's burger in comparison to reading D&D books.
[*Some people have labeled my family a “dark elite” because of the kind of business we handle and the people we work with. But we don't care about that. Not at all. Being an elite isn't the reputation we uphold, it's something else.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 15:13:19
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Yes, Drizzt is ordinary, even with twinkle (and all his other gear). He may be THE most popular FR character, but most of the other 'big guns' (major players in the setting) could take him down if they wanted to. Artemis Entreri is 'just an assassin', after all. He was... cautious... with Drizzt, but never feared him. He did back down from kane, though (which in my book means Kane could take Drizzt apart... theres always a 'bigger fish').
Drizzt does not fly around shooting lasers from his eyeballs - he is the realms equivalent of a batman-level hero. I have no problem with that. As for the Chosen, I have no problem with Storm, Dove, or Quilue, for no other reason then that they simply 'don't matter'. Sure, you could argue that point... but if thy were taken out of the setting nothing at all would change. They have zero impact.
Its the characters that can literally pull moons out of the sky that I can't stand reading about, or the ones that have normal conversations with gods (everyone really should read the preface in the 1e Deities & Demigods about this sort of thing). When someone is treating a deity like a powerful monster to be dealt with, there is something VERY WRONG with the setting, IMHO.
Its a matter of taste. I loved David Edding's Belgariad novels, but couldn't stand his Tumuli series. In the Belgariad, the gods were enigmatic. In the Tumuli the gods 'hung out with' the humans - it was very jarring for me. His Dreamers series was even worse.
Like I said, just a matter of personal preferences. The gods can be just uber-powerful mortals who have achieved a new state of being (like OD&D's Immortals) - in fact, I picture deities just that way - but I don't want them actually acting like humans. What they truly are and how mortals interact with them should be two entirely separate things, IMHO.
On-Topic:
And now, since I did make a promise (and because this is the real reason I came back to this thread) - what about non-human liches? We've seen drow-liches and Dracoliches, and we know of elven liches (Baelnorn), but what about other races? Why haven't we seen a gnoll lich, or even a minotaur one? How about an orc lich? That should be something I could see Orcus getting behind. I think a cloud-giant lich would be pretty damn frightening.
I forget what I was working on last night that prompted this train of thought, but why is it every time we picture a lich we picture a human one? Why are there so many human ones? Wouldn't a halfling (or gnome) lich be especially creepy?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Feb 2013 15:15:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2013 : 17:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, Drizzt is ordinary, even with twinkle (and all his other gear). He may be THE most popular FR character, but most of the other 'big guns' (major players in the setting) could take him down if they wanted to. Artemis Entreri is 'just an assassin', after all. He was... cautious... with Drizzt, but never feared him. He did back down from kane, though (which in my book means Kane could take Drizzt apart... theres always a 'bigger fish').
Drizzt does not fly around shooting lasers from his eyeballs - he is the realms equivalent of a batman-level hero. I have no problem with that. As for the Chosen, I have no problem with Storm, Dove, or Quilue, for no other reason then that they simply 'don't matter'. Sure, you could argue that point... but if thy were taken out of the setting nothing at all would change. They have zero impact.
Its the characters that can literally pull moons out of the sky that I can't stand reading about, or the ones that have normal conversations with gods (everyone really should read the preface in the 1e Deities & Demigods about this sort of thing). When someone is treating a deity like a powerful monster to be dealt with, there is something VERY WRONG with the setting, IMHO.
Its a matter of taste. I loved David Edding's Belgariad novels, but couldn't stand his Tumuli series. In the Belgariad, the gods were enigmatic. In the Tumuli the gods 'hung out with' the humans - it was very jarring for me. His Dreamers series was even worse.
Like I said, just a matter of personal preferences. The gods can be just uber-powerful mortals who have achieved a new state of being (like OD&D's Immortals) - in fact, I picture deities just that way - but I don't want them actually acting like humans. What they truly are and how mortals interact with them should be two entirely separate things, IMHO.
On-Topic:
And now, since I did make a promise (and because this is the real reason I came back to this thread) - what about non-human liches? We've seen drow-liches and Dracoliches, and we know of elven liches (Baelnorn), but what about other races? Why haven't we seen a gnoll lich, or even a minotaur one? How about an orc lich? That should be something I could see Orcus getting behind. I think a cloud-giant lich would be pretty damn frightening.
I forget what I was working on last night that prompted this train of thought, but why is it every time we picture a lich we picture a human one? Why are there so many human ones? Wouldn't a halfling (or gnome) lich be especially creepy?
Because humans are the race known for both a talent in magic and a desire to escape death. Other races aren't shown as having that same driving ambition. Plus, humans are the most numerous race, so of course we'll see more human liches -- and other undead. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2013 : 01:06:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, Drizzt is ordinary, even with twinkle (and all his other gear). He may be THE most popular FR character, but most of the other 'big guns' (major players in the setting) could take him down if they wanted to. Artemis Entreri is 'just an assassin', after all. He was... cautious... with Drizzt, but never feared him. He did back down from kane, though (which in my book means Kane could take Drizzt apart... theres always a 'bigger fish').
Drizzt does not fly around shooting lasers from his eyeballs - he is the realms equivalent of a batman-level hero. I have no problem with that. As for the Chosen, I have no problem with Storm, Dove, or Quilue, for no other reason then that they simply 'don't matter'. Sure, you could argue that point... but if thy were taken out of the setting nothing at all would change. They have zero impact.
Its the characters that can literally pull moons out of the sky that I can't stand reading about, or the ones that have normal conversations with gods (everyone really should read the preface in the 1e Deities & Demigods about this sort of thing). When someone is treating a deity like a powerful monster to be dealt with, there is something VERY WRONG with the setting, IMHO.
Its a matter of taste. I loved David Edding's Belgariad novels, but couldn't stand his Tumuli series. In the Belgariad, the gods were enigmatic. In the Tumuli the gods 'hung out with' the humans - it was very jarring for me. His Dreamers series was even worse.
Like I said, just a matter of personal preferences. The gods can be just uber-powerful mortals who have achieved a new state of being (like OD&D's Immortals) - in fact, I picture deities just that way - but I don't want them actually acting like humans. What they truly are and how mortals interact with them should be two entirely separate things, IMHO.
On-Topic:
And now, since I did make a promise (and because this is the real reason I came back to this thread) - what about non-human liches? We've seen drow-liches and Dracoliches, and we know of elven liches (Baelnorn), but what about other races? Why haven't we seen a gnoll lich, or even a minotaur one? How about an orc lich? That should be something I could see Orcus getting behind. I think a cloud-giant lich would be pretty damn frightening.
I forget what I was working on last night that prompted this train of thought, but why is it every time we picture a lich we picture a human one? Why are there so many human ones? Wouldn't a halfling (or gnome) lich be especially creepy?
Because humans are the race known for both a talent in magic and a desire to escape death. Other races aren't shown as having that same driving ambition. Plus, humans are the most numerous race, so of course we'll see more human liches -- and other undead.
I'm not so convinced when it comes to the relationship between elves and liches. Cormanthyr makes it pretty clear that elves have a unique consequence of their own with lichdom when it comes to the various "-norn" percolating the tome's pages. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 12:47:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its the characters that can literally pull moons out of the sky that I can't stand reading about, or the ones that have normal conversations with gods (everyone really should read the preface in the 1e Deities & Demigods about this sort of thing). When someone is treating a deity like a powerful monster to be dealt with, there is something VERY WRONG with the setting, IMHO.
Ever heard of the word "context"?
Imagine being born with the innate ability to manipulate the very forces that surround you, with a bunch of people who possess the same talent. Imagine standing (literally) above all men, doing almost anything that you fancy, getting almost everything that you want. What exactly do you need the gods for? This is what most Netherese (present and past) have always thought. You can't blame them if they think of gods as powerful archwizards who can be defeated/dethroned/subsumed. Nor can you blame the liches and other powerful immortals who dare challenge, trick, or bargain with the gods, having known perfectly well that some of those gods are ascended mortals. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 13:25:17
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*Meh*
I'm thinking this may just be a dichotomy in my own thought processes about 'gods'. On the one hand, I am deeply religious (who'd a thought?), and on the other, (and as a D&D player and fantasy aficionado) I do believe those 'gods' - and the ones from RW myth - are just uber-powerful mortals. So I have my thoughts on what a god should be vs what they are in D&D/fantasy. I've just always leaned toward the GH/EB way of thinking with gods when I run games. You don't mess with them, they mess with YOU.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I forget what I was working on last night that prompted this train of thought, but why is it every time we picture a lich we picture a human one? Why are there so many human ones? Wouldn't a halfling (or gnome) lich be especially creepy?
Because humans are the race known for both a talent in magic and a desire to escape death. Other races aren't shown as having that same driving ambition. Plus, humans are the most numerous race, so of course we'll see more human liches -- and other undead.
I'm not so convinced when it comes to the relationship between elves and liches. Cormanthyr makes it pretty clear that elves have a unique consequence of their own with lichdom when it comes to the various "-norn" percolating the tome's pages.
@Wooly - that argument really doesn't work; Drow are evil, and yet most of the FR novels we have are about a 'good' Drow.
While I agree that an Orc/Gnoll/Halfling/Minotaur/whatever lich should be extremely rare, that is PRECISELY why I want to hear about them. In FR, you can't walk a city block without tripping over a human lich... why would I want to read about them? They are so over-done at this point that they bore me to tears.
Unless, of course, being a lich is a very human thing... but we've seen thats not the case. You can't open Pandora's box and then just limit what comes out. Take RL's treatment of Vampires - each race got its own entry (to the point where Drow and Elves were even treated differently). That was awesome! If you are going to say that THE lich is human, but other races can create 'lich-like' states (like the Elven Baelnorn), then run with that. I'd just like to see a little variety thrown into the mix.
There is an old Dungeon adventure about a Gnomish necromancer attacking the coast of Cormyr. While the adventure itself is mediocre, what I found so fascinating about it was the protagonist - the only thing creepier then a necromancer is a tiny little necromancer. There is a horror factor there that the author never even bothered to use. If it had been written for Ravenloft, that adventure would have been a whole 'nother animal.
And now my mind is drifting toward Ed's article this week about Gnomes... funny how things come full circle. I had once pictured them having a 'secret empire', and now I am seeing ways of using them I had never considered before (I've never liked gnomes until recently... "I'm a monster!")  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Feb 2013 13:26:25 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 13:41:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You don't mess with them, they mess with YOU.
Meh. 'Tis just a matter of perspective. I'm very humano-centric. Gods don't mess with me, and I'd like to say I mess with them--but that wouldn't be right because I hardly care about them to give them more than a passing thought.
On topic (somewhat):
Is there a Realmsian lich who has a great sense of (twisted) humor? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 14:13:21
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I think Larloch may qualify. I picture him more amoral then evil (I ignore published alignments), which means he does whatever amuses him.
I'm sure there are others - most of the liches we hear about are the ones who tried to do something momentous. The great majority of them just want to be left alone to their research, far as I can tell. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 14:53:46
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| I agree that it would be interesting to see some unusual liches, but I also have to note, they have been paying respects to "alternate" liches as well. I'd say that humans are probably predominantly the largest number of liches, because racially they're inclined towards wizardry, sorcery, and cleric classes, not to mention being the predominant race in Faerun. We have seen drow liches and illithiliches, which would also be some of the other prominent lich races. We've seen sarrukh liches in video games I believe. The elves also have their own liches, which we've seen. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see a gnome necromancer as mentioned. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a duergar lich who is either a wizard, psion, or priest (or a combination of such). I wouldn't be surprised to find a yuan-ti lich. However, I would be surprised to see liches amongst other races that don't have at least a decent tendency towards wizardry and acceptance amongst the general population (for instance, fire giant liches, minotaur liches, orc liches, goblin liches, lizard folk lich, troll lich, ogre lich, etc...) unless said liches were clerical, and even that would be rare amongst some races. I would even go so far as to say that due to lack of resources, these other races haven't discovered the path to lichdom. However, they may have learned other lesser undead creation methods (maybe turning into vampires, mummies, ghouls, etc....) |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 17:01:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - that argument really doesn't work; Drow are evil, and yet most of the FR novels we have are about a 'good' Drow.
Ah, but the majority of drow in Realms novels are not good.
Aside from those at the Promenade, we have two named good drow, and another that we don't know the alignment of, but that we can assume is not evil. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Feb 2013 17:02:16 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 17:59:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - that argument really doesn't work; Drow are evil, and yet most of the FR novels we have are about a 'good' Drow.
Ah, but the majority of drow in Realms novels are not good.
Does that include the Drizzt ones? If so, I suggest you take cover now . . . I can feel the Drizzt fans coming, carrying pitchforks and ready to persecute whoever (Mod or no Mod) is blaspheming their idol. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 19:29:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - that argument really doesn't work; Drow are evil, and yet most of the FR novels we have are about a 'good' Drow.
Ah, but the majority of drow in Realms novels are not good.
Does that include the Drizzt ones? If so, I suggest you take cover now . . . I can feel the Drizzt fans coming, carrying pitchforks and ready to persecute whoever (Mod or no Mod) is blaspheming their idol.
What blasphemy? It's simple math. Most drow that are in novels are not Drizzt, Liriel, or Qilue. We had a six book series that focused on drow and had none of those three. Of the books that have focused on one of those characters, there are frequently many other drow in them that are not good... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 19:37:33
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Well, if you count all novels that have Drizzt in them, the number is almost equal to (or is it greater?) than all other drow novels combined. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2013 : 21:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Well, if you count all novels that have Drizzt in them, the number is almost equal to (or is it greater?) than all other drow novels combined.
That's not what I'm saying. Drizzt, Liriel, and Qilue are just three drow. Three. How many dozens, if not hundreds, of drow are named in other novels?
Therefore, the majority of the drow characters that are in FR novels are not good drow. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Feb 2013 21:20:58 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 01:10:32
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Oops. My mistake. See how one preposition can change the whole meaning of a sentence? In your post above, I didn't see in at first, so it looked like "majority of drow Realms novels are not good." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 04:09:17
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| You could homebrew about liches living in a city, and the liches form a council that governs the city, made up of all different races. A human lich and gnome lich are best friends and they stroll around town at night making merry and mischief. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Edited by - Xar Zarath on 26 Feb 2013 04:09:46 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 07:30:29
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There have been published MANY versions of liches. The basic lich, the demi-lich, the arch-lich, alhoon, the banelich, baelnorn, the dracolich, defiler liches, lich drow, elemental liches, psionic liches, suel liches, the kaishara (athasian liches), inheritor liches (red steel), yeshom (red steel) are basically liches that are merged with black pudding. I'd argue that Great Ghuls and Ghul-kin are a specialized type of lich-Jann. Also, spellcasting Spawn of Nimur are basically lich manscorpions.
The ultra-lich (Larloch), Dregoth (the undead dragon king), and Druuth Dearn are all unique types of liches we've seen.
These are just the ones off the top of my head and only up to 2nd Edition. This also doesn't include the "immortal" liches (ones that have achieved a kind of divinity).
My point is simple, there are TONS of interesting variations on the lich concept already, even if you only restrict yourself to D&D material - other games have their own as well. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 14:11:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
There have been published MANY versions of liches. The basic lich, the demi-lich, the arch-lich, alhoon, the banelich, baelnorn, the dracolich, defiler liches, lich drow, elemental liches, psionic liches, suel liches, the kaishara (athasian liches), inheritor liches (red steel), yeshom (red steel) are basically liches that are merged with black pudding. I'd argue that Great Ghuls and Ghul-kin are a specialized type of lich-Jann. Also, spellcasting Spawn of Nimur are basically lich manscorpions.
The ultra-lich (Larloch), Dregoth (the undead dragon king), and Druuth Dearn are all unique types of liches we've seen.
These are just the ones off the top of my head and only up to 2nd Edition. This also doesn't include the "immortal" liches (ones that have achieved a kind of divinity).
My point is simple, there are TONS of interesting variations on the lich concept already, even if you only restrict yourself to D&D material - other games have their own as well.
yep, I had totally forgotten to mention dracoliches in my list above. Therefore, I can't see where people are saying that all liches presented are human liches anymore than the fact that the majority of characters are also human. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 17:27:37
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But I don't need any more types of liches, I want to see more non-human liches (and NOT dracoliches, which I am also tiring of). Most of those liches you mentioned are templates off a human.
Take a gnome lich, for example. The automatic assumption is that every lich is a necromancer... what about about an illusionist lich? One who specializes in phantasms that cause fear and the like? How about giving it the ability to create illusions that effect other undead?
One of my favorite things in the Pathfinder setting is Arazni, the Harlot Queen. Basically a celestial lich (and corrupted by her current form). I want to see more cool stuff like that - not 'creepy skeleton guy with undead minions' - thats so old school its beyond tropey; its BORING. Its really time to step out of the box and make the setting 'pop' a bit more. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Feb 2013 23:38:33 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 22:57:26
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Hmm, I think I'm a bit old school and tropey. I like my liches to have a purpose. I think there is a reason that most liches portrayed in the sources are human, and that is because the Realms has always portrayed humans as a race as ambitious, in a hurry and power-grasping. In the (in relative terms) short lifespan of a human, especially one who stands at the cusp of real power through mastery of the Art, thoughts of immortality loom large. Lichdom is the most common and "easy to learn" path to this.
I think that gnome liches while feasible don't fit with the standard racial template (heck, stereotype if you will) and this is reinforced even further by Ed's latest Forging the Realms piece. The question that must always be asked whenever anyone is 'creative' in the Realms, is "why is this the way it is?". Why would a gnome illusionist want to embrace lichdom? Why would any gnome want to embrace lichdom? With the elves, Ed provided a wonderful, in game and in setting reason for the baelnorn. If a Realms product or novel came up with a really good, lore-invested, FR-grounded reason for a gnome lich, I'd jump all over it. If it was just done for variety and so as not to be "boring and tropey", I call "Meh". YMMV of course.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 23:25:13
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Hmm, I think I'm a bit old school and tropey. I like my liches to have a purpose. I think there is a reason that most liches portrayed in the sources are human, and that is because the Realms has always portrayed humans as a race as ambitious, in a hurry and power-grasping. In the (in relative terms) short lifespan of a human, especially one who stands at the cusp of real power through mastery of the Art, thoughts of immortality loom large. Lichdom is the most common and "easy to learn" path to this.
I think that gnome liches while feasible don't fit with the standard racial template (heck, stereotype if you will) and this is reinforced even further by Ed's latest Forging the Realms piece. The question that must always be asked whenever anyone is 'creative' in the Realms, is "why is this the way it is?". Why would a gnome illusionist want to embrace lichdom? Why would any gnome want to embrace lichdom? With the elves, Ed provided a wonderful, in game and in setting reason for the baelnorn. If a Realms product or novel came up with a really good, lore-invested, FR-grounded reason for a gnome lich, I'd jump all over it. If it was just done for variety and so as not to be "boring and tropey", I call "Meh". YMMV of course.
-- George Krashos
I most heartily agree! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 23:41:15
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I'm starting to realize I no longer belong here.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2013 : 23:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm starting to realize I no longer belong here.
So you're saying you want variant liches to simply exist, without being grounded in the lore? Because that's what Krash was saying -- don't create something just so that it exists, without being connected to the setting...
It's like what I did with my warforged articles. I didn't just drop some warforged into the setting without any explanation, I put a lot of effort into making them "native" to the setting.
I'm doing the same thing with a one-off draconian-type NPC I'm fiddling with. He'll look like a Krynnish draconian, but he'll be native to the Realms and have his own unique origin. (Also, if killed, he won't go BOOM! )
If you want a gnome illusionist lich, go for it -- but explain it and tie it into the setting. Nothing exists in the Realms without any connections to anything else -- those connections are what makes the lore of the setting so immersive. |
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Need to Know: The Lich
