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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 01:09:01
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My favorite thing about FR is the way it looks when I pop open the OGB and peruse the Cyclopedia or view the maps: huge, varied, sketchily detailed, full of possibilities, much lore left as hints or rumors.
What needs to be fixed is the 25 year+ accretion of meta-plot, RSEs, and ‘uber’ NPCs. Prune and purge as necessary.
In many ways, 4E was a big step in the right direction.
Since Erik is asking for a fix that is not a reboot or a revision, here’s what I suggest:
1) Make the gods mysterious and move them towards the background (sounds like this is already the plan).
2) After the Sundering is complete, take a long break from RSEs (ditto). I’m not really sure they should even bother with the Sundering, but since it’s been decided, at least don’t make it just another ‘oh, they blew up the world again’ moment. Make it count by making it last.
3) Kill Elminster and all the other Chosen of Mystra. Kill Drizzt too, or just drop him off the face of the setting. Here’s the important part: don’t bring them back. Killing these NPCs was the greatest missed opportunity of 4E.
4) Use less definite, objective stuff and more rumors and unreliable narrators, AD&D 1E style. Not everything needs to be nailed down.
5) DM preserves. Do what the OGB promised but later designers overwrote—leave some places mostly ‘blank’ by design.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 03:05:55
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| I want to layout one concern I have with the gods and not knowing which ones are exactly back. Let's take Amaunator / Lathander / Horus-Re. What if a war breaks out between these three religions, because all of them are deities of the Sun... and only one can be correct. Now, if they're actually alias' of the same deity, this causes a problem because his worshippers are killing one another over nothing. If however, these are indeed separate deities, then this behavior may to a degree be seen as "correct" by their deity. Without knowing the exact goings on up in the heavens, the DM doesn't know HOW they should respond... and unlike real world religions, these deities should/would stop this kind of thing in the bud. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 03:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
My favorite thing about FR is the way it looks when I pop open the OGB and peruse the Cyclopedia or view the maps: huge, varied, sketchily detailed, full of possibilities, much lore left as hints or rumors.
What needs to be fixed is the 25 year+ accretion of meta-plot, RSEs, and ‘uber’ NPCs. Prune and purge as necessary.
In many ways, 4E was a big step in the right direction.
Since Erik is asking for a fix that is not a reboot or a revision, here’s what I suggest:
1) Make the gods mysterious and move them towards the background (sounds like this is already the plan).
2) After the Sundering is complete, take a long break from RSEs (ditto). I’m not really sure they should even bother with the Sundering, but since it’s been decided, at least don’t make it just another ‘oh, they blew up the world again’ moment. Make it count by making it last.
3) Kill Elminster and all the other Chosen of Mystra. Kill Drizzt too, or just drop him off the face of the setting. Here’s the important part: don’t bring them back. Killing these NPCs was the greatest missed opportunity of 4E.
4) Use less definite, objective stuff and more rumors and unreliable narrators, AD&D 1E style. Not everything needs to be nailed down.
5) DM preserves. Do what the OGB promised but later designers overwrote—leave some places mostly ‘blank’ by design.
I'd prefer the stories to be less world-changing as well, and I don't mind the gods going to the background, and it seems these two points were already agreed upon by the powers that be.
I strongly disagree with the other points, though. Basically, if you're not going to give me actual facts about something, save the space and write something else (unless you're writing a novel and telling something from a character's PoV or something like that, which goes without saying). As a DM, I know I can alter the facts for my game as I wish.
So there's no need for the designers to say there's two "unknown" Runemasters of the Twisted Rune, for example. These two members are completely irrelevant as far as canon goes. They say these unknown members are powerful undead and give a few possible options as to their basic nature. Well, I could have come up with that on the fly if I needed two extra Runemasters, so it doesn't help me a bit - it's wasted space (just three lines, but anyway...).
Worse still, when you speak of whole regions, they're not only useless, they can damage the believability of the setting too. If you create DM preserves, as the rest of the setting gets detailed you'll end up with one of two scenarios:
1) The area ultimately gets detailed by people who develop its interactions with the rest of the world. Nothing much is lost, but you defeat the concept. Something like that happened in the Realms.
2) The developers stick to the plan and we get an unexplainable lore vacuum. That curious little place exists, but no one comes from there, it doesn't trade with its neighbours, no one speaks about it, if someone has to cross it the journey can't be detailed, etc. People start rolling their eyes.
You can say these places will not be completely blank, but that's not my point. Any time when someone cites the place in a sourcebook, novel, or whatever, beyond simply mentioning again something that's already written about it (which I suppose you'll agree would get old fast), that adds to the amount of lore about said place and makes it less of a DM preserve.
Lastly, concerning the powerful iconic NPCs. That's been beaten to death millions of times over, I suppose, but anyway... some people want them dead because they're powerful. Honestly I care more about the stories of ordinary or slightly extraordinary people than those of the big guns. But lots of people like stories about people with really exceptional power (and running and playing epic-level campaigns), and those have been present in the Realms pretty much since the beginning. Turning it to a "low-powered" setting would entail some severe subtractive design, which is usually counter productive. You don't just need to kill the Chosen of Mystra. You have to rule out or permanently relegate to the past any mortal-made powerful magic, such as flying cities, flying ships, mythals, weather control, portals, pocket planes, and so on.
Now, some people want the powerful iconic NPCs dead because they're iconic. I can see where those people come from, as I don't want to think (or want other people to think) the Realms is all about Elminster and Telamont and the Simbul and Szass Tam and Drizzt. But you don't need to kill these characters to solve that problem, just give them less screen time and you're good.
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Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 09 Sep 2012 03:48:58 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 04:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I want to layout one concern I have with the gods and not knowing which ones are exactly back. Let's take Amaunator / Lathander / Horus-Re. What if a war breaks out between these three religions, because all of them are deities of the Sun... and only one can be correct. Now, if they're actually alias' of the same deity, this causes a problem because his worshippers are killing one another over nothing. If however, these are indeed separate deities, then this behavior may to a degree be seen as "correct" by their deity. Without knowing the exact goings on up in the heavens, the DM doesn't know HOW they should respond... and unlike real world religions, these deities should/would stop this kind of thing in the bud.
I agree with this *nods* though Lathander did become Amanautaur in an event known as the Deliverence (something I was not too fond of), but I see and agree with the point. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 04:12:13
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I want to layout one concern I have with the gods and not knowing which ones are exactly back. Let's take Amaunator / Lathander / Horus-Re. What if a war breaks out between these three religions, because all of them are deities of the Sun... and only one can be correct. Now, if they're actually alias' of the same deity, this causes a problem because his worshippers are killing one another over nothing. If however, these are indeed separate deities, then this behavior may to a degree be seen as "correct" by their deity. Without knowing the exact goings on up in the heavens, the DM doesn't know HOW they should respond... and unlike real world religions, these deities should/would stop this kind of thing in the bud.
I agree with this *nods* though Lathander did become Amanautaur in an event known as the Deliverence (something I was not too fond of), but I see and agree with the point.
Well two of them could be right, since Lathander was revealed as just an aspect of Amaunator.....also accord to Faiths and Pantheons, Lathander liked Horus Re, so it's lmore likely they would ally than fight. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 09 Sep 2012 04:14:07 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 04:26:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I'd prefer the stories to be less world-changing as well, and I don't mind the gods going to the background, and it seems these two points were already agreed upon by the powers that be.
I strongly disagree with the other points, though. Basically, if you're not going to give me actual facts about something, save the space and write something else (unless you're writing a novel and telling something from a character's PoV or something like that, which goes without saying). As a DM, I know I can alter the facts for my game as I wish.
So there's no need for the designers to say there's two "unknown" Runemasters of the Twisted Rune, for example. These two members are completely irrelevant as far as canon goes. They say these unknown members are powerful undead and give a few possible options as to their basic nature. Well, I could have come up with that on the fly if I needed two extra Runemasters, so it doesn't help me a bit - it's wasted space (just three lines, but anyway...).
Worse still, when you speak of whole regions, they're not only useless, they can damage the believability of the setting too. If you create DM preserves, as the rest of the setting gets detailed you'll end up with one of two scenarios:
1) The area ultimately gets detailed by people who develop its interactions with the rest of the world. Nothing much is lost, but you defeat the concept. Something like that happened in the Realms.
2) The developers stick to the plan and we get an unexplainable lore vacuum. That curious little place exists, but no one comes from there, it doesn't trade with its neighbours, no one speaks about it, if someone has to cross it the journey can't be detailed, etc. People start rolling their eyes.
You can say these places will not be completely blank, but that's not my point. Any time when someone cites the place in a sourcebook, novel, or whatever, beyond simply mentioning again something that's already written about it (which I suppose you'll agree would get old fast), that adds to the amount of lore about said place and makes it less of a DM preserve.
Lastly, concerning the powerful iconic NPCs. That's been beaten to death millions of times over, I suppose, but anyway... some people want them dead because they're powerful. Honestly I care more about the stories of ordinary or slightly extraordinary people than those of the big guns. But lots of people like stories about people with really exceptional power (and running and playing epic-level campaigns), and those have been present in the Realms pretty much since the beginning. Turning it to a "low-powered" setting would entail some severe subtractive design, which is usually counter productive. You don't just need to kill the Chosen of Mystra. You have to rule out or permanently relegate to the past any mortal-made powerful magic, such as flying cities, flying ships, mythals, weather control, portals, pocket planes, and so on.
Now, some people want the powerful iconic NPCs dead because they're iconic. I can see where those people come from, as I don't want to think (or want other people to think) the Realms is all about Elminster and Telamont and the Simbul and Szass Tam and Drizzt. But you don't need to kill these characters to solve that problem, just give them less screen time and you're good.
A lot of people hate Elminster because they think he's a Mary Sue. The same is true with Drizzt and Alustriel. It's not just about power level or 'iconic' status.
I never suggested a 'low powered' setting. Nothing about getting rid of Szass Tam, earthmotes (I like the earthmotes), portals, or any of that. I suggested trimming a small number of hugely powerful NPCs who come with a lot of baggage.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 04:32:18
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
I'd prefer the stories to be less world-changing as well, and I don't mind the gods going to the background, and it seems these two points were already agreed upon by the powers that be.
I strongly disagree with the other points, though. Basically, if you're not going to give me actual facts about something, save the space and write something else (unless you're writing a novel and telling something from a character's PoV or something like that, which goes without saying). As a DM, I know I can alter the facts for my game as I wish.
So there's no need for the designers to say there's two "unknown" Runemasters of the Twisted Rune, for example. These two members are completely irrelevant as far as canon goes. They say these unknown members are powerful undead and give a few possible options as to their basic nature. Well, I could have come up with that on the fly if I needed two extra Runemasters, so it doesn't help me a bit - it's wasted space (just three lines, but anyway...).
Worse still, when you speak of whole regions, they're not only useless, they can damage the believability of the setting too. If you create DM preserves, as the rest of the setting gets detailed you'll end up with one of two scenarios:
1) The area ultimately gets detailed by people who develop its interactions with the rest of the world. Nothing much is lost, but you defeat the concept. Something like that happened in the Realms.
2) The developers stick to the plan and we get an unexplainable lore vacuum. That curious little place exists, but no one comes from there, it doesn't trade with its neighbours, no one speaks about it, if someone has to cross it the journey can't be detailed, etc. People start rolling their eyes.
You can say these places will not be completely blank, but that's not my point. Any time when someone cites the place in a sourcebook, novel, or whatever, beyond simply mentioning again something that's already written about it (which I suppose you'll agree would get old fast), that adds to the amount of lore about said place and makes it less of a DM preserve.
Lastly, concerning the powerful iconic NPCs. That's been beaten to death millions of times over, I suppose, but anyway... some people want them dead because they're powerful. Honestly I care more about the stories of ordinary or slightly extraordinary people than those of the big guns. But lots of people like stories about people with really exceptional power (and running and playing epic-level campaigns), and those have been present in the Realms pretty much since the beginning. Turning it to a "low-powered" setting would entail some severe subtractive design, which is usually counter productive. You don't just need to kill the Chosen of Mystra. You have to rule out or permanently relegate to the past any mortal-made powerful magic, such as flying cities, flying ships, mythals, weather control, portals, pocket planes, and so on.
Now, some people want the powerful iconic NPCs dead because they're iconic. I can see where those people come from, as I don't want to think (or want other people to think) the Realms is all about Elminster and Telamont and the Simbul and Szass Tam and Drizzt. But you don't need to kill these characters to solve that problem, just give them less screen time and you're good.
A lot of people hate Elminster because they think he's a Mary Sue. The same is true with Drizzt and Alustriel. It's not just about power level or 'iconic' status.
I never suggested a 'low powered' setting. Nothing about getting rid of Szass Tam, earthmotes (I like the earthmotes), portals, or any of that. I suggested trimming a small number of hugely powerful NPCs who come with a lot of baggage.
There is no need to "trim" them and punish the silent majority who le them.....just quite writing novels about hem and let them fade into the background like the gods are going to....then if you dont like them....you don't have to use them, if you do like them.
, they are still around
While their at it, bring bak all the portals as ways to acces new races and places and don't shoehorn in anymore kewl ones. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 05:18:36
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I don’t know that any such silent majority exists. How can we know that, if it is silent?
And what of the many gamers who cite Elminster and Company as a major reason why they do not like FR—and thus do not buy the books? If Hasbro wants to expand sales beyond the diminished, fractured FR fanbase, it may need to make some pretty bold moves.
Check my signature for the rest.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 05:24:43
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I also think that Habsro shoudl consider splitting the novels' continuity from the game products' presentation of the setting. This would reduce metaplot overload and continuity errors.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 05:37:20
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| I disagree. I think the fanbase is a major reason why they are still around. Not every fan knows about this site (I only just discovered it myself), so not everyone can express their feelings for them. I do think Salvatore is getting tired of writing about Drizzt (and some people only know about the Realms through those novels, which is kind of sad), but I also don't think he should just kill him off. Suddenly killing of all the major NPCs is cheap. You don't have to read the books about them or use them in your campaign if you don't like them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 06:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
There is no need to "trim" them and punish the silent majority who le them.....just quite writing novels about hem and let them fade into the background like the gods are going to....then if you dont like them....you don't have to use them, if you do like them.
, they are still around
[...]
Yes. That's what I meant by less screen time. I shouldn't have put Telamont there, since he's not iconic (just powerful), but anyhow...
The Elminster and Drizzt hating you mention seems to be more a matter of people disliking Ed and RAS's writing styles than the setting's design direction per se, to me. At least that's what I gathered from my (limited) experience around other sites. So if we want Ed and RAS to keep writing fiction for the Realms, I don't see how killing Elminster and Drizzt will make much of a difference. Get them writing about the Twisted Rune or the Emerald Enclave for enough time and you'll get a bunch of Rhaungaun and Shinthala haters instead. What is needed is to divorce the image of Elminster/Drizzt and that of the Realms, so that people who hate these characters don't feel like they should also hate the Realms. It's a matter of presentation, really. Don't put stats for Elminster and Drizzt in the campaign guide (the 4th edition FRCG got that right). Eventually people will realize Drizzt is virtually unknown almost everywhere in the Realms, and even though most have heard of Elminster, almost no one has the slightest idea of what he's doing, and for the majority of Faerûnians, it doesn't really matter. Alustriel, Khelben and the Simbul are much more visible, but that's due to the fact that they are (were) lords of important cities/realms.
Why is it that people complain that Elminster is too powerful, but they don't complain Shoon VII is too powerful? Because they don't even know who Shoon is. We don't get to see what he's doing, but I'd wager one has about the same chance to be caught in one of his machinations (and never realizing it) as in one of Elminster's. And as long as the possibility of attaining incredible magical power exists, there are going to be Elminsters and Shoons around by any other name, and it would make no sense for it to be any different.
I don't like the earthmotes and other crazy geography myself. I'd like the Realms to be similar to Earth at first glance... but that's just personal preference. I can't really form an argument against them besides "they're ugly!".  |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 09 Sep 2012 06:30:10 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 10:35:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
I think that the 2e/3e and even 4e cosmologies sync well, so maybe in 5e, that should continue.
everyone knows the great wheel, here's pic
http://blogofholding.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/GreatWheelMap.jpg
and then there's the great tree
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060512080759/forgottenrealms/images/e/e3/Cosmology.jpg
i drew a layout of the great wheel, with lots of planes excluded, in this pic
http://postimage.org/image/vxnxks5wv/
then i made my own great tree, with planes exlcuded
http://postimage.org/image/i59ip5f5b/
then I placed my great tree on my great wheel, and turned the labels up for easier viewing
http://postimage.org/image/t26906cj3/
So all the domains from 2e are in the planes where they were, and all the branches of the tree lead their, as originally
it's easy for the most planes, but where's the Dragon Eyrie? Blood Rift? Deep Caverns? Dwarfhome (Outlands or Celestia?) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 19:53:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have indeed read books on WWII. And none of them even implied it revolved around us, or that we won every battle.
I'm actually thinking about the ones I read in HS. I am sure regular novels on the subject were handled better.
Although I think the things being taught are a wee bit more realistic these days (thank god for the internet), I still have problems with some of what my kids come home with (like when my oldest was taught that the settlers 'pushed aside' the Native Americans as they spread west). Every country filters its media, trust me. We all have our own little 'perceptual bubbles' we live in.
Anyhow, the point was that the reality presented in past editions can be 're-interpreted' for 5e, to make it mesh better with 5e. 4e didn't bother to do that, which is why its considered a retcon. 5e has an opportunity to 'un-retcon' all of it by providing explanations.
I think you and I can at least agree on that point: not giving us reason for changes is just sloppy/lazy design. I'd rather get a convoluted reason for something, then a "It was always that way" approach. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Sep 2012 19:57:34 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 20:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
I don’t know that any such silent majority exists. How can we know that, if it is silent?
And what of the many gamers who cite Elminster and Company as a major reason why they do not like FR—and thus do not buy the books? If Hasbro wants to expand sales beyond the diminished, fractured FR fanbase, it may need to make some pretty bold moves.
Check my signature for the rest.
I'd say they are control freaks who if they don't approve of it, don't want anyone to have it......so great for them. They are also the group that was catered to with 4e and we see where that led. You can't be "more inclusive" running around nuking everything you don't like. Just don't use it yourself...it's really simple.
The more I think about it , the more I like WotC plan to just not talk about a lot of things, that way if you like them...they are still there to do with what you may....if you don't like it.....well, it's not been wrote up recently....it will be easy to ignore in my realms.
I gues my complaint is this...
I have tolerate many, many things in the realms over the years that aren't "my thing"
But I'm about tired of people holding the realms hostage.....god rid of x,y,z or I'm not buying it!.....that gets old. What happened to thinking about other people? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 09 Sep 2012 20:33:51 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 20:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
I also think that Habsro shoud consider splitting the novels' continuity from the game products' presentation of the setting. This would reduce metaplot overload and continuity errors.
I'm a huge fan of this, been advocating for it for years.....it's really the best of both worlds. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 09 Sep 2012 20:30:09 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 20:09:22
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Getting fed false information is a problem that historians have to deal with since they started. I am a historian and i do have to double or even tripple check my source to be sure that what is claimed is valid and i am not contributing to falsifying history.
I´d be happy if they took the time and gave an explanation to each "big bang" event and what kind of impact it may have on the multiverse. It would not only let people be aware that Toril is part of a bigger picture and that everything is connected, but also give Wizards an easier standing on product continuity and canon plus they give players who play in other settings potential plot hooks or even reason to travel to other places (settings) to find out what may have caused the effects that appeared on "their" homeworld.
Isn´t the Abyssal Plague series kind of aimed at giving a D&D universe wide plot? |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 20:11:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Getting fed false information is a problem that historians have to deal with since they started. I am a historian and i do have to double or even tripple check my source to be sure that what is claimed is valid and i am not contributing to falsifying history.
I´d be happy if they took the time and gave an explanation to each "big bang" event and what kind of impact it may have on the multiverse. It would not only let people be aware that Toril is part of a bigger picture and that everything is connected, but also give Wizards an easier standing on product continuity and canon plus they give players who play in other settings potential plot hooks or even reason to travel to other places (settings) to find out what may have caused the effects that appeared on "their" homeworld.
Isn´t the Abyssal Plague series kind of aimed at giving a D&D universe wide plot?
I wonder how well those did? I havent heard a peep about the abyssal plague since they were released. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 20:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
It's easy for the most planes, but where's the Dragon Eyrie? Blood Rift? Deep Caverns? Dwarfhome (Outlands or Celestia?)
Those are the ones they have to 'fix', or just say those planes are unknown outside of the regions they are know in. It doesn't mean they don't exist. Have you ever tried to look for something you didn't think existed? That would be silly, wouldn't it?
I think there are two layers of cosmology - there is the local cosmology (which I liken to a 'suburb' of the main planes), and then there is The Great Wheel cosmology, which applies to the meta-setting. I think the Great Wheel is also interpreted differently, over the millenia, by different groups. Some folks represent it as something fairly simple (like early 1e), while others turn it into something complex (like late 2e), while others turn it into some sort of barely understandable, super-complex cross-referenced flowchart (something we all discuss, but only exists as 'cosmological theory').
Look at THIS rather excellent Map of the planes. Notice that the Outer Planes don't actually touch - the 'Gate Towns' become precisely that - GATES. If a certain group didn't know about Acheron, for example, it wouldn't appear on their map; Baator and Mechanus would be next to each other. Its not a map at all, really - its a diagram, and a highly fallible one at that. The planes don't even need to be in the same order from group to group - they will find the Gate Towns precisely where they expect them to be (because when you travel toward something in the Outlands, 'direction' doesn't matter - you still get there in the same amount of time).
By the same token, those may only be the planes that folk of Greyhawk know of - there could be dozens more, with their own Gate Towns, that haven't appeared on any maps we've seen. It doesn't mean they don't exist - it just means we haven't been made aware of them yet. We could theoretically make up our own Realms-specific Great Wheel map, with 3e planes that the folk of Greyhawk aren't aware of (or consider them parts of something else).
The only thing that remains (fairly) constant is the Outlands - its always in the center (AFAWK). It could be people from a Nordic World picture the Outlands as Yggdrasil (or the folk of Faerûn as 'the Great Tree'). It doesn't really matter - you could even place the Outlands on top of some elephants on top of a giant turtle; it doesn't really change a thing. The nature of the Outlands allows people to travel to those places they know exist, in a manner to which their own perceptions accept as 'real'.
Hmph... I think I just combined the Outlands with the Astral.. In the same manner I combined several things into my Æthervale concept. In fact, if the Æthervale is the border Ethereal (The wood between the worlds), then it should be possible to travel to the Feywild, Shadowfel, AND Outlands all through there. I used to think (my own cosmology) you have to travel through the Feywild to reach the Upper Planes, and the Shadowfel to reach the lower, but I may have been over-complicating things. It would only work that way if folks thought it worked that way. Plus, all of this would be in 4 or 5 dimensional space, so normal (2D) maps just don't work.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Sep 2012 20:47:39 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 21:30:04
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| Psst, Markustay, did you just find that map while searching the web, or are you a member of deviant? I am, so I had to ask. Okay, totally off topic |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 21:30:54
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I'm a member of deviant, but that isn't mine.
You can find my Deviant site in my sig. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Sep 2012 21:31:29 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 21:33:47
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| Okay, thanks. Had to ask. I'm lathellen on deviantart |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 23:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
... Plus, all of this would be in 4 or 5 dimensional space, so normal (2D) maps just don't work.
I agree with most of what you've said, only want to add that in Planescape it does say that the Great Wheel is not complete, that there's an infinite number of planes between the known outer planes. I think the local cosmologies are more fallible. The Shadow plane (aka Shadowlie) reaches almost everywhere and distorts the views of the primes and planars. Not sure about Yggdrasil, it does not reach into all the outer planes, just where the Norse realms are, I'd say it's a part of a plane (demiplane?). Another thing that needs fixing is multiple astral planes, one for Zakhara, Maztica, Kara-Tur etc. Astral I guess is 0-dimensional, 5th dimension is from where are the diaboli. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 00:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I want to layout one concern I have with the gods and not knowing which ones are exactly back. Let's take Amaunator / Lathander / Horus-Re. What if a war breaks out between these three religions, because all of them are deities of the Sun... and only one can be correct. Now, if they're actually alias' of the same deity, this causes a problem because his worshippers are killing one another over nothing. If however, these are indeed separate deities, then this behavior may to a degree be seen as "correct" by their deity. Without knowing the exact goings on up in the heavens, the DM doesn't know HOW they should respond... and unlike real world religions, these deities should/would stop this kind of thing in the bud.
I agree with this *nods* though Lathander did become Amanautaur in an event known as the Deliverence (something I was not too fond of), but I see and agree with the point.
Well two of them could be right, since Lathander was revealed as just an aspect of Amaunator.....also accord to Faiths and Pantheons, Lathander liked Horus Re, so it's lmore likely they would ally than fight.
That's why I put out this specific example is the inter-twisting of things. We've got some lore saying they're the same. Other older lore saying they're different. Hints of lore saying that Amaunator is actually trapped in the far realm as a vestige. I'm not looking for an argument here about this one specific triad. I'm looking to show a specific example that could cause issues if they don't nail down what's going on. After all... the average realms person doesn't know what's going on in the heavens, but the gods do (at least what pertains to themselves). There would be some followers of Amaunator who see the religion of Lathander spring up and believe they're some kind of heretics. There will be others who might welcome their Lathanderites into their Amaunatori temple and give them a section to set up a shrine. Those mad Amaunatori might then consider their own brethren heretics. The church turns on itself.... the gods need to speak up to their followers.
Similar issues could be seen with Horus-Re returning. Some Amaunatori see another pantheon arriving in the world. They consider him a threat to not just their deity, but the pantheon itself. War breaks out. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 02:11:44
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| That's an interesting point, actually. I see what you're saying now. And it wouldn't be so hard to believe that there are followers of Lathander who don't accept him as Amaunator. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 04:04:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[quote]Originally posted by Quale
Look at THIS rather excellent Map of the planes. Notice that the Outer Planes don't actually touch - the 'Gate Towns' become precisely that - GATES. If a certain group didn't know about Acheron, for example, it wouldn't appear on their map; Baator and Mechanus would be next to each other. Its not a map at all, really - its a diagram, and a highly fallible one at that. The planes don't even need to be in the same order from group to group - they will find the Gate Towns precisely where they expect them to be (because when you travel toward something in the Outlands, 'direction' doesn't matter - you still get there in the same amount of time).
In Planesecape lore, it is said that one could walk the entire ring; it would just take you an infinite amount of time to do so. The planes on the ring *do* touch.
Regarding Dragon Eeyrie and Dwarfhome, the FRCS states that the deities maintain domains on other planes, but have portals to their pantheon seat. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 05:05:47
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I guess that's a great philosophical question that has no doubt plagued sages for time eternal: do the infinite planes actually touch, and does it make sense that someone could walk all of them if it took an infinite amount of time to do?
(Sounds like a great fantasy story, wherein the hero is on a quest to journey across all the planes.  )
It's like the question "how many angels fit on the head of a pin?" in the real world--a question that no one can really answer definitively.
That's how I feel about the planes. They are filled with infinite wonder and cannot be truly comprehended by mortal minds, no matter how sophisticated or experienced.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 05:10:24
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| That would make a good story...and I think Bruce Cordell's deva character Damascus would be the one for the job lol |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 05:26:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I guess that's a great philosophical question that has no doubt plagued sages for time eternal: do the infinite planes actually touch, and does it make sense that someone could walk all of them if it took an infinite amount of time to do?
(Sounds like a great fantasy story, wherein the hero is on a quest to journey across all the planes. )
It's like the question "how many angels fit on the head of a pin?" in the real world--a question that no one can really answer definitively.
That's how I feel about the planes. They are filled with infinite wonder and cannot be truly comprehended by mortal minds, no matter how sophisticated or experienced.
Cheers
I explored this theme in my campaign; the hero of this story set out to determine if the planes were indeed infinite.
He discovered an apparent paradox during his circumnavigation of the planes; he believes they are both infinite and finite. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 08:39:46
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Well, as I said, one person's truth may not be another person's. The very existence of the 4e lore demonstrates how little 'the facts' knew about how things really worked in the cosmology. It invalidates quite a bit we thought we knew about 2e Planescape.
If some sage wrote what you say, and a party of characters - armed with that knowledge - went forth and and traveled those paths as stated in the sourcebooks, that just means those truths held true for whoever wrote them and whoever believed them.
I've never run the 'ring of planes' as actually connected - it never made sense that way (because they are infinite). Logic dictates those were just very big gates where the planes supposedly touched. The sages were wrong. Most of Planescape lore was written in that 'uncertain 3rd person' - in fact, it was one of the major themes in the setting - no-one knows "the dark of it". Everyone is just taking their best guess on how it all works (which is the entire pretext of the factions).
And the lore itself supports this - if you leave one Gate town and head for another, with a belief that where you are headed is the next town in line, then thats where you will end up. you may even be able to see the edge of planer barrier as you travel from one to the next. but if someone else believes differently, then it will not work that way for them. Some one might think Elysium is right next to Acheron, and their corresponding Gate-Towns are next to each other along the ring. it doesn't really matter, because it will take them precisely the same amount of time to get from one to the other as it would anyone traveling to anywhere else, and thats canon (someone quoted the exact time frame earlier in the thread - what was it? 3-5 days or some such?) that means someone can cross the entire ring in the time it takes your party to get from one town to the next one - the lack of cohesive physics (distance) puts the truth to the lie. For all we know, the Outlands are a mile across, and to an outsider looking in everyone appears to be 'walking in place' most of the time. There simply is no real way of knowing - everything is just a theory, and maps are 2d representations of those theories. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Sep 2012 08:40:42 |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
