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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 22:44:06
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Spelljammer is really not my specialty, but I'm enjoying the conversation thus far. I don't want anyone to feel as though the thread is all about that, however.
The cosmologies of Planescape and the Realms have never really lined up perfectly in the canon, but I think going forward WotC could indeed pursue a unified vision of the planes all lining up.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 22:45:48
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WotC mentioned that multiple paths might be correct, just for different reasons, or because of mortal misunderstandings. Realmspace could easily fall into this.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 22:59:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Some planes should still remain constant, though, like Limbo. There is no point in having separate limbos (and it should remain infinite, as well, which is kinda the definition of limbo). Limbo may be the only place two avatars of the same deity (from different worlds) could 'fight' (or just meet to exchange pleasantries). It would be like the [i]Dimension of Manifestations/i] in Marvel comics.
I'm not sure if I would say one worlds hell is connected to another - I think knowing there is another version of them would drive most fiends nuts.
Thinking on this further, and applying some of my own musings, I think that there should be a number of 'universal' planes, which are actually dimensions (dimensions can contain a number of planes within them). Thus, 'dimensions' takes the place of the old 'transitive plane' concept. Instead of those being separate planes between other planes, they become the 'container' for various planes (so they basically work the same - its like how the old astral and ethereal worked).
Ergo, we have one Shadowfel, one Feywild, one astral, one Ethereal (my Æthervale concept), maybe an Ordial plane, Limbo... each being a region in which other planes reside. Most of the rest should be separate, and crossing between them should be very limited (I can see 'heavens' going to war with each other as well as 'hells'). The Prime Material definitely needs to be one of these dimensions, rather then a plane (because each crystal sphere is its own plane, and the four elements and/or the maelstrom should be folded into that).
So there would be a default cosmology (much as it was in 2e), and then their would be locale variations (perturbations?) of the theme. One world may have ten hells, while another only have eight. It really all depends on what the mortals there believe in.
I could go for this idea (including limbo). I'd even include one additional plane.. the far realm. I totally agree on each prime (or crystal sphere) having its own separate elemental planes (or elemental chaos) and possibly positive and negative energy planes as well. Doing this gives the ability to have a Lord of Elemental Fire specific to said world, plus a Sultan of Efreeti with all his pashas, etc.... that the party can go to, mess with, and leave without it being a huge inter-world issue.
Oh, and on the ten hells.... So Gargauth was successful in one of these primes, aye?  |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 23:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
MT- How does this sort of cosmology theory relate crystal spheres to the phlogiston? If each sphere was its own plane, then one could not travel between them via Spelljamming. This also needs to be addressed. I'd suggest, instead, that while each plane is finite, it also connects to each other plane, and to the phlogiston as well, through shifting borders, much like the color veils we had in Planescape. A border that passed from the Abyss to the Nine Hells at one time, might shift to border with Celestia or the elemental fire plane the next time one crosses. These borders might not even need to be visible- it could be that travellers cross them without ever even knowing- one minute you're walking through the Feywild, and the next, you're in Sigil! Or Ravenloft, or the Astral,.... Point is, we really don't need portals at all, just say that the planes themselves are always moving and rearranging themselves in new configurations, which would even explain the different cosmologies. It might have resembled a tree at one time, simply because of how the planes had shifted and positioned themselves at that point. Or it could have been one vast wheel to someone who traveled through them at a different time. It would be completely random, of course, which would explain why no one can agree on what form it takes.
I like the idea of there being "core" deities that exist on all worlds, but with different names or aspects, and I also like the old PS idea of all crystal spheres existing within one Prime Material plane, but as different parts of it (in the phlogiston). Can we incorporate these into that shifting paradigm, so that each prime world manifests its own version of a deity concept, according to the beliefs of the world's inhabitants? And Spelljammers might encounter different version of the same deity by traveling from one world to another, which might also explain how even "dead" gods can still exist and/or grant spells. They could simply be pulling power from a different version somewhere else, or from the base deity itself.
Actually spelljamming and the phlogiston wouldn't be a problem at all. Just as we're saying that the astral, ethereal, feywild, shadow, and possibly limbo are all transitive planes that aren't finite... the same could be said of the phlogiston. In fact, it could be considered somewhat a mirror of the astral...but while the astral can be traveled by meer thought and distance doesn't mean as much... perhaps the phlogiston is all about distance and physical measurements. Entry into the phlogiston is also physically bound, as you have to go to the end of your crystal sphere to enter it (unlike going to the astral which can be done via thought/spell). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 23:31:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for Limbo, I don't even really think of it as plane anymore, nor even a dimension (an over-plane). Its more like 'that area outside of all other planes'. It could very well be the region the Far realms are in (they are just very, VERY far away, as the name implies). Its stuff outside of our universe, so it should be infinite. It's 'The Nothing'. Thus, the Far Realms are on the far side of Limbo (which I only just came up with just now - it kinda has a Lovecraftian vibe that way, which is fitting).
You want to get to the far realms you can't do it easily - you have to talk to a worm hole (which is an impossibly large, sentient creature in the D&D universe).
Dude, you just read my mind. When I was just talking about the far realms, I was thinking "maybe you can reach them through limbo.... if you can handle the insanity". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 00:11:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Spelljammer is really not my specialty, but I'm enjoying the conversation thus far. I don't want anyone to feel as though the thread is all about that, however.
The cosmologies of Planescape and the Realms have never really lined up perfectly in the canon, but I think going forward WotC could indeed pursue a unified vision of the planes all lining up.
SJ is certainly not my specialty. I had nearly all the supplements, but only read the main ones (the boxed sets). Most of the beasties were awful.
however, I am a fan of 'sailing between worlds'... just not in space.
My current musings (coupled with old musings between myself Gray Richardson, and several others) does not over-ride past SJ lore. Despite how I feel about something, I would rather re-work it then just get rid of it. I've incorporated the lore and passed it trough the filter of 3e and 4e, to come up with a workable solution for 5e (which means nothing was invalidated).
Some sourcebook from the 3e era even covered those fiendish variants of Spelljammers (Planesjammers would be better, moving forward), and one was even used in the WotSQ series.
We could even use the Sundering event to explain why there was no mention of Spelljamming in 3e - because it was an ongoing event since the time of the ToT. During the time of 'magical chaos', magical travel through space became very dangerous - moreso then usual. Helms in Realmspace could blow up, or just cease functioning. Even after the events of the avatar crisis passed, the instability remained for years, and unlike on Toril, in some place these unstable pockets were even growing. The Mercane (Arcane) began experimenting with other types of helms, that would allow travel through safer transitive planes. By the time the spellplague hit, many of these newer helms were in-service, and the old ones were all but abandoned for travel beyond crystal sphere (they were still okay for in-system travel in most Crystal Spheres).
So the ongoing Sundering - from the beginning of 2e to the end of 3e - was a time of unrest in Spelljamming tech, and most folks simply avoided Realmsapce, which seems to have been at the heart of the trouble. By the time 5e rolls around, this may have changed. Its now up to DMs how much of that they want to use.
I'd use Planesjammers, but not Spelljammers. Its all how you spin things. Its just one more way 5e can break down the 'canon fallacy' - that you really can use anything from any setting and its all good.
I also try to meld this into the cosmology, the planes, the gods & primordials, etc - it shouldn't be all separate lore - everything should synergize with everything else (whether we want to use all of it or not). As Erik pointed out, the old lore regarding PS and SJ didn't really sync-up well, and we have an opportunity to fix all that.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Dude, you just read my mind. When I was just talking about the far realms, I was thinking "maybe you can reach them through limbo.... if you can handle the insanity".
And I'm also not a fan of that vibe, and yet I am combining it with SJ - something else I dislike. Like I keep saying, you don't have to love everything to make it all work, and you don't have to love every era to be a Realms fan.
The new setting should be designed so that every aspect of it is still accessible. Choices should be made by individual groups, so they can run the Realms and version of D&D they want. I think we need a new motto, "No lore left behind". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Sep 2012 00:18:59 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 11:41:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The cosmologies of Planescape and the Realms have never really lined up perfectly in the canon, but I think going forward WotC could indeed pursue a unified vision of the planes all lining up.
Cheers
I dunno, they did for a while at least during 1e and 2e. And if you squinted your eyes a bit they mostly lined up during 3e. 4e was its own beast since it used a completely different cosmology and all of the assumptions from PoLand.
Lining things up at this stage might be either easy or nightmarish depending on what core 4e elements remained in effect with FR: entire planar races never existing like 1e/2e/3e guardinals in 4e, different races using the names of classic races like 1e/2e/3e archons versus 4e ones, drastic changes to eladrins in 4e, 1e/2e/3e yugoloths being quite different in many places in the 4e cosmos.
At this stage I'd advocate either completely going back to the Great Wheel or a slightly modified Great Wheel, or largely not defining the planes wrt FR and letting folks use what they like as the default option with regards to specific campaign settings since it would avoid the headache of reconciling 4e's very different planar history and assumptions with everything else that came before it.
- Says the resident planes junkie. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 15:30:27
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I think it's a bit overstating it to say that 4e is a "completely different" cosmology. Granted, there are differences, but many of them are superficial or expansive. E.g. the name "eladrin" you mention still refers to the same thing (extraplanar fey), it just also refers to lesser versions of the same thing (mortal fey who haven't yet "grown up"/"transcended"). Not enough of an expert on archons or yugoloths to comment there.
And as I was saying before (speaking as a planes junkie myself), it seems to me that if you visualize the planes as a great wheel, a great tree, a sea above and a pit below, you're still pretty much right. It's just a matter of perspective.
I do indeed agree with you that it's different, but to me it doesn't seem so different as to be headache inducing. A little bit of good work by someone who really knows/loves the planes, and I think we're sailing. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 16:14:41
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Yeah, depending on where you are in the big picture, and what direction your looking...your view of it would confer a different shape and scope.
Humans and short lived species have such a short life span, looking outward in all directions would seem infinite, hence a sphere.
Most long lived species have a different view of time and tend get more settled in a longer pattern, and head toward a well established "goal", they could easily visualize a tree.
etc, etc
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Sep 2012 16:18:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 20:38:31
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The story of the Blind men and an elephant comes to mind.
If reality passes through the filter of each world's perceptions (and is thereby changed for that particular world), that means no cosmology is invalidated by any other. The rules of a certain cosmology only apply to folks from that world. If their perceptions change - which should require them somehow getting 're-attuned' to another plane/sphere - then the rules concerning how the cosmology appears/affects them also changes (for them). If the perceptions of an entire world changes, then the consensus becomes the 'new reality'.
For instance, Spelljammers had their own cosmology. they truly believed they flew through 'outer space' (despite the fact that the phlogiston is very different then RW intersteller space). When someone became aware of Spelljamming, and did it themselves, this was almost like a 'cosmological template' laid on top of their current belief system (which didn't always sync-up with their other beliefs, but mortals can ignore a lot).
This means that the universe hasn't really changed (much) since 1e - it just means that some of the events of the Sundering (which affected the entire multiverse) either changed what people believed, or "brought new knowledge to light".
This is how I am viewing Spelljamming in the post-2e era - the magical chaos caused after the ToT began a cascading chain of events. The Maelstrom reformed from the Elemental Planes (and quasi/psuedo-elemental planes), and the energy planes were forced to combine with others by all the cosmic upheaval. The Maelstrom was 'reforming' in the deep Ethereal - that region formerly nown as the Phlogiston. This was an on-going event spread across 3rd edition and the Wailing Years (empty century). The Mercane (Arcane) saw that spelljamming was becoming two dangerous for most folks, and devised other means to 'sail between the worlds' (created Helms that used other transitive planes). Old Spelljamming vessels can still fly through the Maelstrom, but that is a very risky thing indeed (which, of course, means adventurers do it all the time). Thus, old-style spelljamming can still exist, if people prefer that, or that can just use newer rules (hopefully provided by 5e).
So the Phlogiston/Maelstrom did change, but its not really a retcon. Spelljammers just didn't really know what they were sailing through (the Mercane probably knew, but they weren't telling). This same logic can be applied to nearly ALL the 4e lore - primordials aren't something new; its just that most common folk didn't know about them (because most of them had been imprisoned after the God war). We had primordials on Toril - we just didn't know it.
I've yet to find one piece of lore that can't somehow be rectified (blended with older lore), no matter how good or bad. Yes, some explanations have to stretch a bit further then others, but explanations are possible. The one major caveat we should accept is that all canon sources are told 'in-story', making them all hearsay (which is precisely the premise the entire setting is based upon). We just have to take that one step further and apply it to D&D in general - that things change because we get new information (or simply because things actually change). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 06:30:33 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 00:26:11
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Um... So all of the Arcane in all of the spheres changed their centuries-old production methods because of local events in one sphere, that did not impact the other spheres in any way, shape, or form? 
There's no need to "fix" Spelljammer. A lot of talented game designers put a lot of effort into it. If we can accept 50-foot long, flying, fire-breathing reptiles or being able to have tea with a deity, a demon, and a leprechaun*, then why can't we assume that space works differently, too?
It's more work to fix it than it is to accept it as it is.
*Sounds like the beginnings of a joke, doesn't it? "So a goddess, a demon, and a leprechaun walk into a bar..."  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 00:40:02
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| While there are definitely cool things to do, let's not lose sight of the baseline: Spelljammer is D&D... In space! I say this with all affection, but let's not over think it. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 02:14:59
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Brian James has previously said that he very much likes to toss in passing references every now and then for the fans of spelljamming [of which he acknowledges also, that, like many of us, he is also one] for continuity's sake.
So long as that's a continuing trend in 5e Realms, that's good enough for me. I can't see an official version of the next edition of the FORGOTTEN REALMS that doesn't at least give the slightest nod to it's past traditions of drawing elements from other past settings like SPELLJAMMER, GREYHAWK, PLANESCAPE, and RAVENLOFT. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 02:33:46
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We'd better be careful, lest we put forth the idea that the Lantanese escaped the Spellplague by turning their entire island into a SPELLJAMMER.
See what I did there?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 02:41:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
We'd better be careful, lest we put forth the idea that the Lantanese escaped the Spellplague by turning their entire island into a SPELLJAMMER.
See what I did there?
Cheers
Yes. You gave me such a cool idea for my own working of 4e Lantan that my mind nearly collapsed under the weight of how I could incorporate it into my Myth Iiscar mythal-powered tinker-human and mad-gnome floating island concept.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 08 Sep 2012 02:43:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 06:38:26
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I never said to get rid of Spelljamming. In fact, I made a point of saying its still possible.
I just made it easier for those of us who do not like that lore to ignore it, and use something similar (but not nearly so silly).
When I left Greyhawk, I left the Coca-Cola golems behind.
As to why the events in Realmspace affected everything else... guess you haven't read any new canon lately. IT DID. Asmodeua is a god now because he ate Azuth - thats canon across the multiverse, AFAIK.
I don't like that FR seems to be the 'center of the D&D universe', but apparently it is. Everything starts and ends with the Realms. Its probably all Abeir's fault (all that primoridal energy bottled-up in a single crystal Sphere is like a balloon waiting to burst). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 06:39:01 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 07:03:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As to why the events in Realmspace affected everything else... guess you haven't read any new canon lately. IT DID. Asmodeua is a god now because he ate Azuth - thats canon across the multiverse, AFAIK.
Here's a problem though, is that Asmodeus was already more powerful in many ways than most true deities, and by embracing divinity he's opened himself up to the liabilities that such a status entails. He didn't need it, it only complicates his long-term goals, and why eat a minor divinity from Toril when he already had 9 layers worth of gods that he could have done so with eons earlier. Set, sekolah, etc would have made better meals. And by stepping into the politics of divinity, he just made himself a target since otherwise the gods have traditionally stayed out of the affairs of the fiends, and likewise.*
Planescape canon and general D&D planar canon through 3.x is hitting a wall pretty hard in some specific instances with very late 3.x FR and 4e FR. My desire for what takes a higher level of canon standing is very much grounded in the desire for a unified meta-setting ala Planescape. We'll see how it all washes out with 5e.
*Of course oddly I've got no problems whatsoever with Asmodeus as a god in Pathfinder, but the planar relationship between gods and outsiders has been handled differently from the start there. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 14:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As to why the events in Realmspace affected everything else... guess you haven't read any new canon lately. IT DID. Asmodeua is a god now because he ate Azuth - thats canon across the multiverse, AFAIK.
Ah, but here's the problem: 3E got rid of the idea that all settings were connected. So the FR Asmodeus is not the Asmodeus of elsewhere.
Even if you handwave that aside, it still doesn't explain why the events of one sphere necessitate an entirely new way of doing things across all spheres.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't like that FR seems to be the 'center of the D&D universe', but apparently it is. Everything starts and ends with the Realms. Its probably all Abeir's fault (all that primoridal energy bottled-up in a single crystal Sphere is like a balloon waiting to burst).
If you don't like that FR is the center of the universe, why are you trying so hard to make it that way? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 15:52:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
My desire for what takes a higher level of canon standing is very much grounded in the desire for a unified meta-setting ala Planescape. We'll see how it all washes out with 5e.
Hear, hear! Planescape did a wonderfull job at offering a "roof" for the multiverse and i´d like to see it returned. The Realms are a part of a bigger picture that the multiverse is.
Adding Spelljammer and Planescape into the mix surely should cater for all sorts of planar and crystalsphere adventures throughout the multiverse. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 15:53:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As to why the events in Realmspace affected everything else... guess you haven't read any new canon lately. IT DID. Asmodeua is a god now because he ate Azuth - thats canon across the multiverse, AFAIK.
Here's a problem though, is that Asmodeus was already more powerful in many ways than most true deities, and by embracing divinity he's opened himself up to the liabilities that such a status entails. He didn't need it, it only complicates his long-term goals, and why eat a minor divinity from Toril .
Because he was hungry?
And I like the idea that it may cause him issues he did not even dream of while chewing down.
Maybe a case of heartburn so severe because AO reinstalls azuth and he then rips his way out of Asmo's chest? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 08 Sep 2012 15:53:46 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 18:57:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Question for the week: If you could have ONE god back, who would it be and why?
Maybe it's a god who vanished into 4e FR, or maybe it's a god we haven't heard from in a while. Also, what form should this god take, if it's not a straight-up resurrection?
For example, Myrkul may have perished at the end of the Time of Troubles, but he lived on in the Crown of Horns, sowing his dark influence in the minds of many wearers. While not revived as a god per-se, he still exists and is working his will in his own way--perhaps he is content, or perhaps he merely bides his time to become a god once more?
Note: It goes without saying that a lot of us want MANY gods back. You won't lose any Realmslore cred by not saying so. What I want to know here is which god you MOST want back, and why.
Cheers
That's a hard one, because there are three that I really want back: Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and Mask. I can't pick just one lol |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 19:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I agree on the concept of having Mystra around as a deity, and that being an iconic thing about the Realms. The "demise" of Mystra basically touched off a huge event and colored an entire edition of the setting. I think she needs to be there, but shouldn't be as proactive (or necessarily as powerful) as before. A goddess of magic on a level playing field with the other deities is more interesting to me than a "goddess" who's really an overpower.
Though I will also suggest that filling the void Mystra left with someone else might work. For instance, elevating the Simbul to become the new Mystra (possibly with Elminster as Azuth) would work for me. Thoughts?
Cheers
Agreed. I'm making several comments, so I'm sure there is going to be a line that is my post at the end of this thread, but I only just joined this site, so I didn't see earlier posts, and am going back and reading the earlier ones, so forgive me ^^; But I like that concept. I didn't like how the death of Mystra affected the world at such a deep level. I mean, the Weave is "woven" in just about everything in this magical land, but Mystra is not AO. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 19:11:14
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| Ironically I think that if it was Ao to 'die', none would even notice/care (no mortal, at least) -- that is AFAIK, as I'm not aware of anything that ties Ao's existence with the integrity of Toril. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 19:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If you don't like that FR is the center of the universe, why are you trying so hard to make it that way?
Because the canon points to it being so. Drow started there. Giants started there. Nearly everything "happened on Toril first". Its a 'cosmic crossroads', of sorts (part of its most basic premise).
If you've been following some of my other musings, what I am trying to do is say that Toril was NOT the center of the Universe - Abeir-Toril was. The difference is, I have expanded the definition of Abeir-Toril to be the 'True World' - a singular Prime Material plane that was shattered during the Godswar.
Now - post-Sundering - the one major difference between the fragment (Crystal Sphere) that is Toril and all the others is that the 'cosmic prison' of the primordials seems to have been placed in Realmspace as well. For whatever reason, it became Ao's baby (which means if every Sphere has its own Over-god, then Ao is doing 'double duty'... which could explain why he has delegated so much of his power to Mystra).
Personally, I would prefer they take the Abeir concept and marry it to mine - just say that Abeir is a pocket plane within the multiveres - a sort 'prison plane' for the Primordials (and those unfortunate mortals who got stuck there). They could even combine Abeir with Athas (see my Abeir thread) and it would all make perfect sense. Abeir could also be shoe-horned into the lower planes somehow, but that would really scream 'Tarterus' too much.
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Planescape canon and general D&D planar canon through 3.x is hitting a wall pretty hard in some specific instances with very late 3.x FR and 4e FR. My desire for what takes a higher level of canon standing is very much grounded in the desire for a unified meta-setting ala Planescape. We'll see how it all washes out with 5e.
Couldn't agree more. I would much prefer they tweak the crap out of 4e lore to get it to fit better with older lore, preferably with your expert help. I am a big fan of the 'meta-setting' concept.
As for Asmodeus, I think D&D was just trying to borrow one of Pathfinder's cooler concepts, and it back-fired. I think it can be fixed though - if you use the 'reality is different in each sphere' concept, then Asmodeus needn't be a deity in every sphere, just ones he had a vested interest in (like Toril and Golarion). Greyhawk's Asmodeus is still an Archfiend. (THE Archfiend).
Divinity almost becomes like a 'suit' a cosmic being slips into when they enter certain spheres. If the worship (Faith) isn't present, there's no suit hanging on the clothesline to put on. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 20:23:48 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 19:45:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Oh, I don't know how much of the blame should be laid on the novels. Look at the 3.5 Faiths and Pantheons book, which was extremely heavy on giving ACTUAL STATBLOCKS to deities. All respect to the authors (because that's a great book and one of my favorites), but I think the implication there (that deities should be active combatants in your campaign) misses the mark.
This is not to say the novels aren't partly to blame. To an extent, that's the problem of having the Avatar series be one of the core stories that defines the Realms--it was heavy on the gods by design, so that makes one think that the Realms itself should be heavy on the gods, all the time. It democratized the deities, making them more touchable and "human," for lack of a better descriptor.
I think we have too many events (both in the novels and in the game material) where the plot revolves around some deity actively doing something, and the heroes have to stop it. The deities aren't meant to be punching bags for PCs--they're about moral guidance, and to play games against one another in the background. Sure, they should cross paths with the PCs from time to time, in mysterious manifestations and half-remembered dreams, but if a game revolves around fighting a deity, then you're either doing something wrong, or you're playing a seriously EPIC game that shouldn't be considered a standard Realms game.
I'd much rather see plots where a MORTAL servant of the deity is doing something, perhaps against other mortal servants of other deities, and has to be stopped from his/her mad zealotry before it harms the Realms. Dragonlance (don't hit me!) had Lord Verminaard obeying the orders of Takhisis--it didn't have the dragon queen come down to fight the PCs personally. Gods can and should hatch schemes and manipulate, but they shouldn't really be wandering around interacting with the mortals on a regular basis.
(I will say that this was one of the intentions of 4e, actually--to eliminate too many gods/god-like characters running around the Realms.)
I agree with Tarlyn about providing a list of active deities and some notes about how to run their worshipers, but I don't think that list necessarily needs to include *ALL* the deities that are around. I think it should be a short list: my ideal distribution is 7 popular adventuring deities (Helm, Torm, Tymora, Mask, Mystra, Sharess, Mielikki), 8 more "commonly worshiped mostly by NPCs" deities (my picks would be: Chauntea, Corellon, Ilmater, Kelemvor, Amaunator/Lathander, Sune, Talos, Waukeen), and 5 "evil and probably worshiped by villains" deities (Bane, Cyric, Loviatar, Shar, Beshaba) for a total listing of 20 deities that represents the "most common deities in a standard Realms game." And then (here's the key) include a phrase something like:
"The Realms has literally thousands of deities in all manner of form and power level, from local gods worshiped in a single isolated hamlet to secret greater powers that work behind the scenes, unknown to mortal man or immortal elf. Do not feel restricted to this list here, but feel free to borrow deities from any period of the Realms for your game, or create your own."
Then we follow it up with a couple-page-long list of about 80 more FR deities, listed only by name, alignment, portfolio, domains, term for worshipers (Tormtar, Tyrran, Sharran, Ilmatari, etc), favored weapon, and maybe a "date of ascendency" (which represents when they are most active in the Grand History of the Realms). Each of them gets one line on the page. Every deity that's been around in the Realms. If you're an old guard player, you can pick up your favorite deity from the past (Moander? Bhaal? Myrkul? Leira? Jergal? Shevarash?), and if you're a newbie, you can peruse the list and pick out some that interest you. The idea is that it pushes you to do more research on your own.
We're operating in a new world now, where not all the lore is contained in the books. It's also online, or in the heads of old guard players. That sort of info sharing should be made available and encouraged.
Cheers
Yay another post from me on the same thing. Do people even read this? Again, I read the later posts in this thread before going back and reading the earlier ones. I should have, but I only joined a few days ago, so I’m presenting my thoughts haphazardly. I’ve been thinking a lot about the Sundering and what you Erik, and other people, have said on that matter of the gods, and as I’VE said before, they have always made the Realms for me, but after reading more on this thread, I agree they shouldn’t “walk around” on Toril as much, but rather stay in their respective domains. Plus, leaving the fights up to their followers would not only focus more on the mortals, but it would be less likely that the gods would be killed off again, haha. I like the idea of the list of the active deities, and the ones you named (ex, Mystra (whoever she turns out to be), Corellon, Ilmater, Bane, Kelemvor, etc), and then having a list of the others and briefly listing the others. The 4e FRCG did something like this, naming the greater gods with a description of their history and dogmas, and then it simply listed the lesser gods and exarchs, their domains, and alliances (ex LN, CG).
What mostly concerns me is the novels. As far as I’m concerned, campaigners have always had creative license on which deities—if any—they want to include in their game. But IMO, there should be a list (for lack of a better term) of which deities are there and which aren’t in the novels. If Vhaeraun and Eilistraee come back, the drow should know. If Torm stops being the Threefold God and Tyr and Helm return, shouldn’t their followers know that? Even though the future novels, if I understand correctly, will focus more on mortal struggles than deific ones, it’d nice to know, if say there was a novel about a follower of a particular deity, whether that follower is still following a dead deity, or one that has returned (Shadowbane and Helm, for instance). I understand that a follower may be following a dead god for the morals he/she stood for, but that doesn’t solve the problem of where their soul is going to go when they die—unless it is picked up by a deity of similar morals. And as I’ve said before, I think a novel about the followers of lesser known deities, or, if not necessarily known, than ones who haven’t gotten the spotlight as much. For instance, Ilmater is a better known deity, but at least in what I’ve read, there haven’t been many novels featuring his followers. Mel Odom’s Threat from the Sea character Jherek prayed to him for a time, but there really hasn’t been much on him, as far as I’m concerned Or some of the elven deities, like Sheverash of Lebalas Enorath? I like the idea of there be novels about the followers of deities and maybe the struggles/triumphs of their church, with clerics using divine power and such, definitely, without the deities themselves walking around, but I just want to know which ones are indeed back and those who never left (ex Kelemvor, Corellon, Chauntea), and which ones aren’t, for the sake of the novels. Because such stories about their followers would make great novels, IMO, even without the direct influence of the deities. I’m also coming to grips with some deities being aspects of each other. Hanali, for example, had a portal in her part of Arvandor that led to Sune’s realm of Brightwater anyway, so I suppose her being the elven aspect of Sune isn’t too much of a stretch.
Congrats to anyone who read all this *claps* let me know your thoughts, though I’ve made similar statements already ^^; and others have already shared theirs, from what I've been reading. Hey, food for thought, right? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 19:59:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As to why the events in Realmspace affected everything else... guess you haven't read any new canon lately. IT DID. Asmodeua is a god now because he ate Azuth - thats canon across the multiverse, AFAIK.
Here's a problem though, is that Asmodeus was already more powerful in many ways than most true deities, and by embracing divinity he's opened himself up to the liabilities that such a status entails. He didn't need it, it only complicates his long-term goals, and why eat a minor divinity from Toril .
Because he was hungry?
And I like the idea that it may cause him issues he did not even dream of while chewing down.
Maybe a case of heartburn so severe because AO reinstalls azuth and he then rips his way out of Asmo's chest?
All joking aside, you made me think of a few things.
First, Azuth didn't just eat any minor deity, he ate one with a bit of Mystra's power. Mystra, as we know, is not your normal deity (nor is she a primordial - she is more of a sentient artifact). I have been thinking that in Realmspace, Ao did something (for whatever reason) that most Overpowers do not do - he gave away a bit of his own power (control over a portion of the sphere's phsyics). Mystra held a teeny, tiny portion of the 'gaurdianship' an Overpower has over a sphere, and perhaps THAT is what Asmodeus wanted?
Second, maybe Asmodeus was not 'in his right mind' (as in, he acted without thinking at that moment). Why would that be? CANONICALLY, Asmodeus was hit with a piece of Mystra's power with Halaster 'insanity' captured within it. To me, that seemed like a very desperate (and dangerous) move on Mystra's part. What if that had a lingering effect? It could be one of those "There needs to be balance" type of things the universe insists upon (so that at some point in the future, Mystra's act of desperation would come back and 'bite her in the ass'). Or it could be Halster's insanity lingered, and when he saw that juicy morsel of Mystra's power (something Halaster was probably painfully aware of), some part of him couldn't help but absorb it. Lastly... Halaster had some piece of that power himself (or that of Mystryl, which was a bit different). It could have been like a magnet - if Asmodeus had the piece of Halaster that contained that 'divine spark' (given to him by whomever), it may have attracted that other piece - azmuth was rawn into the Hells and into Asmodeus. It could very well be something none of them wanted.
Or it could have been some combination of all of that ('the law of cosmic symmetry'). What if Halaster held a piece of Shar's power? And Azuth we know had a piece of Mystra. We know from RotAW that each is one half of a whole power (Raw magic, that of Mystryl). What if these pieces were being drawn back together? that what Asmodeus now posses is a tiny bit of 'whole magic' - two little bits of both Shar and Mystra, pasted back together.
That could make him uber-powerful (even moreso then before - that could be the overgod energy I talked about above). And now we have lolth trying to build a demonweb. Me thinks there may be something to this - much of Mystryl's energy is now unleashed upon an unsuspecting multiverse, and someone could change reality - or build their own - if they were to collect it all.
And Asmodeus could do something very unexpected come 5e - he may just hand that unwanted power to someone else (I think divine power is related to Radiance, and that is probably giving him ulcers ATM). He is lawful evil, and he may have just wanted to keep that energy from falling into someone else's hands (I rather like the idea of Asmodeus being a 'Guardian' for a time).
Imagine at the end of a 5eToT, Asmodeus hands that energy to his boss? It would almost seem like everything has come 'full circle' at that point. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 20:02:23 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 20:48:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If you don't like that FR is the center of the universe, why are you trying so hard to make it that way?
Because the canon points to it being so. Drow started there. Giants started there. Nearly everything "happened on Toril first". Its a 'cosmic crossroads', of sorts (part of its most basic premise).
If you've been following some of my other musings, what I am trying to do is say that Toril was NOT the center of the Universe - Abeir-Toril was. The difference is, I have expanded the definition of Abeir-Toril to be the 'True World' - a singular Prime Material plane that was shattered during the Godswar.
Where does it say that the giants of Greyhawk are the giants of Toril? Where does it say that the drow on Random D&D Setting #16 originated in the Realms? Where does it say that anything, anywhere else in the D&D multiverse, originated in the Realms? (Other than specific individuals, like Khelben Ravenscloak Arunson or lands in Ravenloft)
Just because two (or more) worlds have apparently identical races, that doesn't mean that they all had common roots. There could be common roots, but there could as easily be other explanations, like concurrent evolution or the gods of one world copying the gods of another world. It could also be that the FR-specific creation myths are just that: myths.
If everything on started on Toril and then went elsewhere, how come Toril has breeds of elves that are not found anywhere else? Where are the Krynnish drow? Where are the song dragons on Oerth? Why does Tempus not exist anywhere else?
And the Realms has never been painted as a cosmic crossroads -- there's a major difference between a place that has connections to other places, and a place where all paths coincide. I can go straight from Orlando to Dublin; I've done it before. That doesn't mean that all -- or even some -- of the roads to Dublin (rocky or otherwise! ) pass thru Orlando. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Sep 2012 20:50:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 21:34:43
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Here's the problem. We have canon regarding The Forgotten Realms. We have canon regarding the Planescape setting. Not all of it works well together (especially with all the 4e 'adds'). We now have several (on-going) cosmological RSE's, and over a hundred years to explain-away all of this.
The best way to 'fudge' (I am starting to really hate that word) things so it all syncs-up is to say that the stuff that happened in Realmspace was part of an even greater, cross-planer event(s). I do tend to put most of that on Toril (because this is an FR site, and I am an FR fan first), but I have put-forth other theories, like the one where the stuff Vecna did in Ravenloft (and then GH) was also part of the theoretical 'greater planer event'.
Under normal circumstance, the multiverse is a very stable thing, and 'minor perturbations' in various Spheres do not effect 'the big picture'. however, every so often, things 'align' (like the Grand Conjunction) in such a way that MANY RSE's happen across multiple spheres simultaneously. This then grows from localized events, to a destabilizing 'cosmic event'.
So my attitude that it 'all happened' on Toril is from the perspective of someone creating Realmslore. I think events just as important - maybe moreso - are happening all over the multiverse all the time. The Great goblin exodus of Migthrandos, the fact that halflings evolved from ladybugs on Seti-Alpha seven, the sphere-implosion in the Remulak sector that caused massive sphere-quakes on dozen of worlds. The god-eater Galactithel, who enters spheres and consumes every last bit of divine energy, or the rogue-planet Mongo, which invades crystal spheres and brings war and ruin to everywhere it touches.
But none of that matters, or should be talked-about in an FR forum. We have to view the multiverse from a Realmsio-centric point of view. "Its all about us" - is what the folks of Toril would think, so thats how I think. What I picturing happening with the Sundering and the cosmology is a cascading series of events, which started in one sphere - maybe not Toril - and has dominoed out of control, until even the 'over-cosmology' (The Great Wheel) has been effected and changed.
look at it this way - have you ever read an American History book about WWII? Apparently, it all revolved around us, and we were there to win every battle. You'd think almost no-one else was even involved. Now read a British WWII history book - quite a different version (I've read one - they are more accurate). History is written from the perspective of the writer, and made to cater to the tastes of the intended audience. Most of what we know about the ancient world gets filtered through the writings of the Romans and others (which may be far from the truth). There is very little difference between 'perception' and 'truth', even in our RW.
So now multiply that problem with different worlds in a Multiverse - everyone is going to have their own version of what the universe is really like, and as far as they are concerned, their version IS the accurate one. To every world, their world is 'the center of the universe'. Thus, on an FR forum, Toril is the center of the universe. I am sure folks on a DL forum would feel differently (although DL and GH combined with FR do make the only 'stable' trinity of Spheres in Spelljammer, so there might be something to that). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 21:38:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 00:20:43
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I have indeed read books on WWII. And none of them even implied it revolved around us, or that we won every battle.
I am on this FR forum, and I'm a huge fan of the Realms. And I still see absolutely no reason to assume that any RSE has an impact on anyone else. It wasn't that way in 2E, when all of the settings were connected, so I see no reason to assume anything different for post-2E -- especially since the settings are no longer connected.
We have canon that says major events in one setting don't spill over to other settings, and we have later canon that says the settings aren't connected. That's two reasons, right there, to not assume that one setting impacts others. The lack of documented effects on other settings is another reason to assume it doesn't happen.
And even when the settings were connected, characters that knew about the other settings never said anything about "oh, no, this event happening in this corner of the Realms could impact Oerth and Krynn!" |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 01:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have indeed read books on WWII. And none of them even implied it revolved around us, or that we won every battle.
I am on this FR forum, and I'm a huge fan of the Realms. And I still see absolutely no reason to assume that any RSE has an impact on anyone else. It wasn't that way in 2E, when all of the settings were connected, so I see no reason to assume anything different for post-2E -- especially since the settings are no longer connected.
We have canon that says major events in one setting don't spill over to other settings, and we have later canon that says the settings aren't connected. That's two reasons, right there, to not assume that one setting impacts others. The lack of documented effects on other settings is another reason to assume it doesn't happen.
And even when the settings were connected, characters that knew about the other settings never said anything about "oh, no, this event happening in this corner of the Realms could impact Oerth and Krynn!"
I've never read such a history of WWII either....everyone one I've read made it seem a meat grinder that punished each and every participant.
I do miss the time when the realms was filled with portals to most everyplace imaginable...what happened to that? |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
