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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 01:30:53
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@Laeknir on my Mystra as AO concept: You seem to misunderstand some of my fundamental points. Mystra becoming AO would remove her from a position where she can abuse her power or alter mortal events. She becomes a fundamental law of Realmspace, and no longer an active goddess. This is a move that both restores her and also silences her as a NPC or novel character--she's no longer on that level. Also, it would be getting rid of AO. After this happened, we could blissfully go into our period of "no RSEs, no gods as PCs, no major damage to the setting" content in the knowledge that the Mystra situation was resolved and the designers wouldn't be tempted to kill her again for whatever reason. So as I see it, it answers all your concerns and avoids the problems that you suggest it brings up. But I guess we can just disagree.
I'm going to address Laeknir's points, and then post another piece refocusing us. This is a valuable discussion, and one that needs to be had, but after this, I hope we can move on from grousing about the mistakes of the past to discussing the correct path forward in the future, which is the point of this thread.
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Originally posted by Laeknir
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
That's a really simplistic way of looking at it, and I don't think those implications are correct at all. Ao *isn't* a "God the Father" figure--he cares nothing about mortals or what happens to the worlds. He isn't even a ruler of the other gods--he's just the balancing force of Realmspace. He is the check to keep the gods from breaking things, and this is what he's demonstrating by allowing the Era of Upheaval: that without the check, the gods WILL break everything. Fundamentally, the world is not sustainable without some measure of balance to fight off entropy--to keep things from sliding into chaos and (eventually) nothingness.
No offense, but I'm calling BS and shenanigans on this one. What is AO's purpose if not stability of the worlds? Sure, he doesn't get involved with individual mortals or care about them, but the Tablets of Fate ARE the rules for the gods - since he set the rules up, he's their ruler in a sense.
I agree, stability is his purpose. However, *ruling the gods* is not. What the Tablets provide aren't *rules* for the gods to live by--the Tablets are just a list of gods who exist in the divine reality that operates in Realmspace. Because they're transcribed there, the gods exist, end of story. With few exceptions, gods named on the Tablets of Fate can't be killed--it is up to AO to maintain the Tablets.
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More importantly, what about those of us who are tired of this ongoing meta-plot about the gods as NPCs? By featuring AO and the gods, again and again, it's really clear that designers have NOT been listening to those of us who have said "STOP WITH THE GODS DRAMA." It's not stopping at all. It's magnified and highlighted, and we have yet another MASSIVE RSE upcoming, in the form of the Sundering.
I apologize if I haven't been clearer about this. So let me rephrase:
Yes, the Sundering is a RSE--it represents a big push to put the setting back together and make things right. But after that, that's it. WotC has no plans to produce more RSEs--they have publicly announced that they plan to focus on small-scale, character-driven stories that don't shake or alter the world. They're through constantly breaking their setting.
This is the last time they plan to break it apart, but that's only to put it back together into what it should have been all this time.
That's the plan. And yes, clearly the designers HAVE been listening, because they've planned a break from the cycle of RSEs. It takes a RSE to do it, but that's the end. That's their plan, and while it isn't perfect, at least it's in place.
It is what it is.
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So I'm just not seeing it. Neither am I seeing (in my long history of reading, gaming, and working in the Realms) anything like a concerted *dislike* of AO as a concept.
No offense meant here, but if you're not seeing it then you're just choosing to ignore it.
Sorry, but I *do* take offense to the notion that I am being willfully ignorant and outright lying to you.
If there really is this large-scale dislike of AO, then put your linkage where your rhetoric is. Give me an example. Offer me some reading material. I promise I will read it.
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Are designers actually listening to us?
Yes, we are.
When I feel that this is true, I'll let you know. Sorry, but I see exactly the same bad things happening over and over again. Bigger RSEs, more gods as NPCs, and damage piled on top of damage.
Respect, but I don't think the way you feel dictates reality. I'm listening to you, as are many key designers, and those who don't make it to these boards hear it second hand from me.
Also, I will not sit here while you tell me I'm not listening, not after I've spent untold hours pouring over opinions and discussions on this site. You would do far better getting your voice heard by being respectful, positive, and knowing who your allies really are.
That said, yes, WotC definitely needs to earn your trust. And they've done a lot to push you away--not intentionally, but what happened, happened. They are making a HUGE effort to do right by the setting, pouring all their resources into it, and trying to get to a point where exactly what you're discussing (and exactly what I've specified) is the state of the Realms. It's a process, and if you're not willing to give them a chance, that's your decision.
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Unfortunately, I strongly believe at this point that the Realms are way too screwed up to use for gaming.
Well, it might not work for you, but I for one am having a great time using the Realms for gaming, just as I have for 20 years now.
It matches with your personal vision, so of course it's working for you.
A false assumption. My personal realms is similar to the published Realms but not the same. I am constantly pushing on the existing setting to bring my vision to it, because that's what a shared world is: a collection of visions from different creators, all developing a single world.
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Once it's canon, you cannot escape it as a DM or player.
Absolutely not true. I've dissected the idea of canon time and time again. If you choose to shackle yourself to canon you don't like, that's your decision, and making it does not mean you didn't also have the choice to change canon and make it your own.
The best part of all this is when people tell designers there's a problem, and designers launch back with "it's not us, it's you."
Now you're just being unrealistic and extremely bitter. It honestly makes me sad.
The entire purpose of designing in the setting is to produce a setting that will be pleasing to as many people as possible. The designers are constantly trying to do that. They messed up with 4e on a lot of levels, and they are course correcting. If you can't see that, I'm not sure what else I can say to convince you.
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Honestly, I hope sales work out for this "new" planned vision of the Realms. I won't be buying it, because it does indeed have significant problems that are not only being ignored by designers but actually are being magnified and becoming worse over time.
All right, well, if you're going to dismiss it sight-unseen and aren't interested in talking about how to make it right (which is the purpose of this thread), then we have nothing further to discuss.
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Are you going to like every vision? Not remotely. But the fact that YOU don't like it doesn't mean it's a "glaring problem."
It's not just me. I wish designers would break out of their own personal vision just for a second and see that. But oh well. I have other settings to play with, fortunately.
Whose "personal vision" are you talking about? Bill Slaviscek? Rich Baker? Both of them are gone. Bruce Cordell? Not working on the Realms. WotC is moving forward with a whole new design team and they are putting all their efforts into doing right by the Realms.
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I just really hope that this "Sundering" doesn't screw up the Realms so bad that it makes me stop reading the few novels I do get from time to time. But honestly, I'm not all that hopeful.
You already said you weren't going to pick it up and that you have other settings to play with, so I'm not sure why you care. But I can assure you that many of us who dearly love the Realms as much as you are trying everything we can to make it right. Your voice would be welcome in that process, but it is entirely your choice to stay or head for greener pastures.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 01:37:22
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A NOTE TO ALL: This thread is not about negativity or "what is WotC doing wrong?" We have lots of threads on that point. What we should be talking about here is exactly what I outlined on page 1: discussing ways to connect lore from all the different eras to produce a Realms that fits my vision of an all-inclusive vision of the setting that is open to all eras, and even all editions of the game.
The direction of 5e seems to be to produce a game that takes the best of every edition of D&D, and I think that's the way forward for the Realms as well.
As the originator and owner of this thread, I am going to ask that future posts be to this end. DO discuss the future of the Realms as a setting, not the past mistakes of previous editions. DO talk about how to reconcile lore, or raise questions about lore that seems contradictory.
DO NOT post rants, forecasts of doom and gloom, or laments of being screwed over. If something is an issue, raise it, but DO NOT fill up this thread with the never-ending flow of negativity. We are trying to build something here, not tear anything down.
I will ask the moderators to remove any post that undermines the goal of this thread. I fully support your right to have a negative opinion about the state of Realms design (and many times I actively agree with you), but this is not the place nor the time.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 02:01:24
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Hmm... well, I'm discussing the treatment of continuity here, and I think that's a very important subject if any attempt to structure Realmslore in 5e is to be made. But I guess that could very well be discussed on a thread of its own, so I'm perfectly willing to do so.
I've done a few suggestion in the original spirit of the thread (back on page 1), though it's been a bit difficult to make any follow-ups. Most of my "suggestions" tend to boil down to "make it (nearly) the same as before 4e (or 3e, or 2e)" and that's not very helpful, I guess. I'm sure everyone can think of that without my aid. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 02:21:45
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Oh-kay. Good luck, all.
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 02:36:01
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“How can you possibly know of it?” The golden haired elf’s normally perfectly tranquil face was drawn up into the paragon image of anxiety.
“Even we half orcs can read, and Old Knight, admits those that are unworthy of the precious store of knowledge under his care.” The half orc’s voice thrumbed with the unwavering balance of a being that held some deep seated truth that gave it predigous fortitude to handle trying circumstances. “Listen then to what I have to say”(conversation between the Moon elf Zettonya Ererlaend and the half orc Kel’kush Kr’kri, two miles south of Silvermoon, third day of the Ride of Mirtle).
"And the Ending shall come,
Brought about by the Seven
Raise the standard of War
Only the People to stand against Them
With Man to deliver the Verdict
The prophecy that the Elves know well, the prophecy that brought about the great Elven Retreat, has a prelude that would shock those to hear about it. They would be shocked to know of the monster of the outerworld, a weapon of the devils forged during the Dawn wars. They would be shocked to hear of the battle between this mighty things, to call it a being would be a blasphemy, and the over God Ao. In the end Ao was victorious, but a deadly song was written against him. He would have healed far more quickly if not for the events against Mystra, and the unbinding of the weave. For this Ao was given cause to remove the seals on magic, allowing it unfold, and the spellplague was begun.
Why?
Why to awaken the full nature of the weave and restore the patterns that once were; to unite the divided house. In the end, the weave shall join with Mystra as in the days of old, and she shall become the lieutenant of Ao. Before this, the to halves must be restored, the spider must strive for the web of life, and the gods that sleep in the deep must awake. These things must come to pass for all to be prepared for the day when the voices scream, the day the people speak of comes. On that day man shall decide the difference, they shall have been prepared by the messengers of the lieutenant of Ao.
You can all probably gather exactly where I'm coming from and where I'm going with this, although it was part of my very last rp session. I assentially handed my DM a rather large, and very much needed, plot hook. This was before I know anything about 4e besides that Mystra was possibly dead, I thought wounded, and the spellplague. So, I being one for such things took several ideas, boiled them together, and ran with it.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Joebing
Learned Scribe
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 02:39:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also, 5e has the potential to be era-neutral and embrace all different periods of Realms history. You should be able to (and I have) pick up a classic Realms adventure/sourcebook and use it without trouble. I've done DnD-Next playtesting with the old Ruins of Adventure module, and that's really getting back there in time.
That's good to know...lol Ruins of Adventure. I converted that to 3.5 just to mess with friends who hated the computer game. They killed the council.
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Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.
http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames
First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 06:17:08
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
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Originally posted by Irennan
^I understand that deities are a mystery, but what's the point of being so vague? If that's to give the illusion that many deities are back, it won't cut it since people who play d&d can easily use any god they wish in their campaign. If they used the lack of info ''trick'', it would be the same as saying ''X IS DEAD'', because the support would be null anyway and interesting stories would remain brutally interrupted. Also, too much vagueness is annoying.
As it has been said countless times (and as it is obvious), the Realms are yours to use and yada yada...
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It's interesting you say that, because YES, the Realms is meant to be altered and changed and what not, but at the same time, you and I both know that people get tied into knots over "BUT IT'S NOT CANON!" even though "THIS CANON DOESN'T WORK FOR ME ANYWAY!"
I would much rather see WotC leave it up to DMs. Rather than *definitively stating* that a deity is dead, just say that deity has vanished from popular worship, and let DMs pick them up if they want, or ignore them if they don't. That way, we can all say "my Realms follows the canon!" and be happy.
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The reason I -personally- absolutely want some deities back (I've already named them before) is that it opens up possibilities of development to their and their followers' stories which I wish to enjoy again (and because WotC chose to remove many of them from canon in a really weak way).
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What's stopping you from doing that, if the Realms are yours to shape as you wish?
Is it because some sourcebook says a particular god is gone?
See the canon pressure?
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Also, I'm wondering if people at WotC really read/care about what it is said here...
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They do. They absolutely do. Do you not see Eric Boyd, George Krashos, and myself commenting here? We may be freelancers, but we're all written Realms stuff in the past. And maybe in the future. Who knows?
Cheers
Sorry Erik if you’ve continued this. I just saw this post as I was scrolling down and I wanted to comment on it. As I’ve said before, as someone who has only played D&D a few times, my primary concern for the Realms is the future novels—the ones that focus on the Sundering and all those that follow. It’s true that I do RP with friends through writing, and we still have Vhaearun and Eilistraee around. But still, as an avid reader of the Realms (though there are plenty of novels I haven’t read), I would like to know which gods are back/still around. Why? Because IMO, it affects the novels. I can’t very well say “oh, this deity is back, and this one does this”, because I didn’t write the novel. Someone else did, and I have no control over it. Fan fiction doesn’t really help here. DMs, as far as I know, have always been able to choose which, if any, gods are involved in their campaign. But in the novels, I’d still like to know if X god is still vanished. Canon does matter here to me, because, as has been said, WotC and freelancers do not want to jip the authors that have written in 4e or any past edition. This being the case, in the past, at least in the novels I’ve read, it’s been clear which gods are around and which aren’t. Not every novel has focused on the gods, they’ve just been mentioned, but we’ve known which ones are there. Same with 4e: we know which gods were dead. Why change that method? I don’t want to be guessing or crossing my fingers. I want to know. Call me greedy, but I’ve always loved the gods in the Realms, but I’ll be okay with them taking a less active role if I know for certain which gods are around. But I don’t want to read one novel that says X god is alive and then read another that says X god is still dead or "vanished". DMs are free to be creative, but the novels matter too.
I am intrigued by the Mystra replacing Ao, though I don’t necessarily think he should die. Maybe he could step back and let her take over, and help if need be, like an advisor. Again, I’m sorry if you’ve touched on this more. Like I said, this post just caught my eye.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 11:20:22
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Why bring Mystra back just to hurry her over to the sideline and make her in the running for least active deity? I would expect that Mystra and magic will remain an important part of the Realms for a long time post the sundering. If someone were to list the top 5 most active deities in the realms (whatever counts as active with reference to the new standard in 5e) I would be surprised if Mystra wasn't include given magics large role in the setting.
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
She doesn't give the perception of abusing her power or "get in the way" of design (the stated reason for axing her in 4e).
The multiple eras being actually support would be my solution for the design issue. If designer X absolutely can't function in a setting with an important goddess of magic, Realms now has a 100+ year period starting in 1385 and ending with the sundering. Any design issue with something iconic to realms that was "fixed" by 4e continues to be "fixed" in that time period.
On AO's gender:
It doesn't matter to me, female AO hurray! Genderless AO hurray! AO really hasn't occupied much design space in the past and I kind of expect that trend to continue, so I don't really see it as important. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 12:58:24
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Biequote:
Once it's canon, you cannot escape it as a DM or player.
Absolutely not true. I've dissected the idea of canon time and time again. If you choose to shackle yourself to canon you don't like, that's your decision, and making it does not mean you didn't also have the choice to change canon and make it your own.
I realize most of this discussion is going to be based on the perspective of the D&D Player and/or GM, but to be fair, this forum isn't a D&D forum.
Those of us who are not currently playing in the Realms, but still love the Realms and read the Realms, absolutely cannot divorce ourselves from the canon. (That's essentially telling us to quit buying your books!  )
So as a player/GM, yes, I can do whatever I want with the realms.
However, as a reader, I'm stuck at the mercy of Hasbro/WotC. And, as you can tell from many posts on these boards over the years, sometimes the decisions made by game mechanics designers for our favorite story setting leave a bitter taste in the mouth that there really isn't anything we can do about.
(And that's willfully ignoring the tirade one could go on about how game mechanics designers have WAY too much influence in a story setting to begin with!) |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
Edited by - Neo2151 on 11 Oct 2012 13:10:20 |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 13:08:58
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As far as Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight taking over for Ao... Well, let's look at it this way:
If the readers/players/authors/etc get what it seems most of us want from the devs, and the gods continue to exist but go entirely "backstage" and stop hogging any of the limelight, then why does it matter at all how powerful Mystra is? She could be 100x more powerful than the next most powerful god and it wouldn't matter at all, because the stories would be about her followers, not her. |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 14:16:49
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| I actually like RSE events and the gods having an active role in the Realms... |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 15:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Hmm... well, I'm discussing the treatment of continuity here, and I think that's a very important subject if any attempt to structure Realmslore in 5e is to be made. But I guess that could very well be discussed on a thread of its own, so I'm perfectly willing to do so.
Discussing the treatment of continuity is very much relevant to what I'm after in this thread. The distinction would be between a post about "Here's how to tie these things together" vs. a post about "WotC screwed up continuity on these things in the 4e transition" or "WotC clearly isn't interested in maintaining/fixing continuity." See the difference?
WotC has sent clear signals that they are interested in reconciling and stitching together the lore, which does indeed have gaping holes. They've expressed as much privately (in planning meetings that are very promising) and publicly (at the GenCon 2012 Keynote address and in the Candlekeep Seminar at the Con). It is a waste of time to keep spinning our wheels decrying their indifference to lore.
@CorellonsDevout re deities coming back: It hasn't been fully revealed what WotC is going to do about deities after the Sundering. I have heard speculation that the canon FR will issue a blanket "all deities are back" statement, but that the deities won't be as active in the world as before (and certainly no novels where characters are gods). What isn't clear is how this will be done or how/whether deities will be announced.
Make no mistake, there will be clarity, if only because novels will talk about the deities. But I don't think you'll ever see a deity actually appear in a novel outside of sending signs, portents, and potentially servants to interfere with events indirectly. And I am very happy to see that process be gradual, wherein the divine reality is unfolded as its relevant. The last thing I want to see is a hard-and-fast list of "this deity is alive, this one isn't, etc."
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Originally posted by Tarlyn
Why bring Mystra back just to hurry her over to the sideline and make her in the running for least active deity? I would expect that Mystra and magic will remain an important part of the Realms for a long time post the sundering. If someone were to list the top 5 most active deities in the realms (whatever counts as active with reference to the new standard in 5e) I would be surprised if Mystra wasn't include given magics large role in the setting.
Well, as I said, this was pure conjecture--not even speculation--on my part. I just posed a "what if?" question.
And when I said "least active," I suspect I wasn't being clear. I don't mean that she has little or no impact on the Realms--far from it. In a sense, she is the binding force that holds all things together. She just is less active in the lives of mortals and doesn't do things like deny Cyric all magical power just because she doesn't like him. Etc.
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
She doesn't give the perception of abusing her power or "get in the way" of design (the stated reason for axing her in 4e).
The multiple eras being actually support would be my solution for the design issue. If designer X absolutely can't function in a setting with an important goddess of magic, Realms now has a 100+ year period starting in 1385 and ending with the sundering. Any design issue with something iconic to realms that was "fixed" by 4e continues to be "fixed" in that time period.
I don't buy the "Mystra was getting in the way of our design!" argument, just like I don't buy a lot of the design work that went into 4e. That said, I would like to see Mystra restored, and returned to a more balanced persona that doesn't interfere with deities and world events the overbearing way she sometimes did in the post ToT/pre-Spellplague world.
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On AO's gender:
It doesn't matter to me, female AO hurray! Genderless AO hurray! AO really hasn't occupied much design space in the past and I kind of expect that trend to continue, so I don't really see it as important.
It's more symbolic, I think. The world of the Realms is much less patriarchical than our world, and I'd like to see the highest arbiter of reality be something other than some stuffy old coot. 
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Originally posted by Neo2151
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Biequote:
Once it's canon, you cannot escape it as a DM or player.
Absolutely not true. I've dissected the idea of canon time and time again. If you choose to shackle yourself to canon you don't like, that's your decision, and making it does not mean you didn't also have the choice to change canon and make it your own.
I realize most of this discussion is going to be based on the perspective of the D&D Player and/or GM, but to be fair, this forum isn't a D&D forum.
Those of us who are not currently playing in the Realms, but still love the Realms and read the Realms, absolutely cannot divorce ourselves from the canon. (That's essentially telling us to quit buying your books! )
So as a player/GM, yes, I can do whatever I want with the realms.
However, as a reader, I'm stuck at the mercy of Hasbro/WotC. And, as you can tell from many posts on these boards over the years, sometimes the decisions made by game mechanics designers for our favorite story setting leave a bitter taste in the mouth that there really isn't anything we can do about.
That's an extremely valuable point, Neo. And yes, I can attest that as a FR novelist, you often have to bend to the will of design decisions that get in the way of the story you want to tell. I have been lucky in the past in being able to get around or incorporate a lot in a way that does not sabotage my story, but sometimes design decisions do indeed damage the credibility or enjoyment of particular novels.
To a degree, that's inevitable--the novels grow from the setting, and the setting itself grows from the novels. But it still falls to us--the designers, authors, and audience altogether--to make the canon as good as possible. If this weren't a concern, we could gladly throw our hands up in the air and say "Do whatever you want! Believe whatever you want!" But I think the presence of long threads like this shows our collective understanding that this is an issue that needs to be addressed.
It's our lot in life!
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(And that's willfully ignoring the tirade one could go on about how game mechanics designers have WAY too much influence in a story setting to begin with!)
Aye, I hear you there. Going forward in the Realms, I very much want to see the story of the setting become more significant than the mechanics. The mechanics are important, yes, but the story is what sells the setting. DnD-Next appears to be much more fluid, mechanically, than its predecessors, so maybe that's a good sign. We'll see.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 22:46:03
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quote:
@CorellonsDevout re deities coming back: It hasn't been fully revealed what WotC is going to do about deities after the Sundering. I have heard speculation that the canon FR will issue a blanket "all deities are back" statement, but that the deities won't be as active in the world as before (and certainly no novels where characters are gods). What isn't clear is how this will be done or how/whether deities will be announced.
Make no mistake, there will be clarity, if only because novels will talk about the deities. But I don't think you'll ever see a deity actually appear in a novel outside of sending signs, portents, and potentially servants to interfere with events indirectly. And I am very happy to see that process be gradual, wherein the divine reality is unfolded as its relevant. The last thing I want to see is a hard-and-fast list of "this deity is alive, this one isn't, etc."
Hmm, all right, well I have mixed feelings about it, but it will be the way it is, I suppose. I wasn’t expecting gods to be characters in novels (though I did enjoy the books where they were), I’m just asking for clarity. Nor do I expect a novel to have a paragraph listing the returned deities. I would like something along those lines, but it would ruin the flow of the novel, and if you’ve ever read Homer’s [i]Iliad[i/], you know how boring the listing of all the ships becomes. It would be nice though if, say a character found out about the return of a formerly “vanished” god some way or another. And since, from the sound of things, clerics will still be a class, they will need to have their deity grant them spells and such. After/during the Sundering, I’m sure the faithful will like to know what position their god is now in. I certainly would! This is why canon is important to me. It’s because (or mainly because) of the novels. Still, I will miss the days where the deities were more active, but I understand many people feel differently, and as you have said, you can’t please everyone.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 23:38:05
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The deities can be active without taking center stage. I feel like the Realms has seen enough deities taking center stage, a place more appropriate for mortal heroes.
There can and should be exceptions, of course, as there are to every rule. I thought Mask's appearance in Erevis Cale, for instance, was very appropriate. It just needs to be done correctly, which is "rare, meaningful, and memorable in a good way."
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 23:45:56
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Igree with Erik.
Deities must not take the starring role.
co-stars they should be and done right or not at all.
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2012 : 23:47:08
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Here's another point to consider, just something to think about, because it's one I've kicked round a time or two.
What if Ao takes over the weave and Mystra goes down to Azuth's?(not sure on spelling), shoes? What if Mystra becomes the Godess of mages, and Ao becomes the silent good of the weave. We'd still have the benafits of a neutral god not dependent on worship, we'd still have a god for more or less, is stable over the control of the weave, and Mystra remains an active participant in the world, as much as any God/Godess could be. The advantage of this last part, all good points on the nature of chosen aside, is that people wont automatically think that Mystra's select aren't more powerful than they were to begin with. What's more, we don't have to deal with the issues of trying to figure out what or where Ao goes to if he is forced to leave, as one previous post here made the suggestion for.
I'm not saying this as I find anything wrong with the other points addressed, only want to bring another suggestion to the table. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 00:53:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Here's another point to consider, just something to think about, because it's one I've kicked round a time or two.
What if Ao takes over the weave and Mystra goes down to Azuth's?(not sure on spelling), shoes? What if Mystra becomes the Godess of mages, and Ao becomes the silent good of the weave. We'd still have the benafits of a neutral god not dependent on worship, we'd still have a god for more or less, is stable over the control of the weave, and Mystra remains an active participant in the world, as much as any God/Godess could be. The advantage of this last part, all good points on the nature of chosen aside, is that people wont automatically think that Mystra's select aren't more powerful than they were to begin with. What's more, we don't have to deal with the issues of trying to figure out what or where Ao goes to if he is forced to leave, as one previous post here made the suggestion for.
I'm not saying this as I find anything wrong with the other points addressed, only want to bring another suggestion to the table.
The problem with that idea is that Mystra doesn't just control the Weave: Mystra is the Weave. It's not something she can just divorce herself from like that (not without some serious retconing anyway). |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
Edited by - Neo2151 on 12 Oct 2012 00:53:42 |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 01:31:12
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I don't dislike when the gods get in the middle of things in my Realms novels. But I don't want it all the time. It is like reading about the grecco-roman, egyptian, nordic, or celtic (anglo-saxon) gods. I love myths, and that is what novels with the gods being more up front are, myths of the Realms. :)
But I would agree that I would prefer the majority of my novels to be non-god character based (and hence why I love RAS's books). I enjoy the novels to be a mix of pure fantasy, as well as reads like a novelization of someone's gaming table (I had several moments of that while reading the Last Mythal recently). I prefer that for the most of the novels, but it does not have to to be the case 100% of the time.
I do like some "crunch" to go with my novels. I do not need mechanics laid out. Sometimes I will try to figure something mechanic wise, what class, level, feats/kit, etc. I have been known to pull out campaign material (or buy new crunch books!) while reading a novel. My husband laughs at me, but understands. What I read in novels inspires my own characters to come to life. I am one of those players that creates a personality before I even roll for stats, then go from there. The characters in the novels inspire me to make my sheets of paper as full fleshed out as I can.
For me, the novels inspire my game play (even if I am not playing in the Realms), and I think that is a wonderful thing. :D
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 04:20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The deities can be active without taking center stage. I feel like the Realms has seen enough deities taking center stage, a place more appropriate for mortal heroes.
There can and should be exceptions, of course, as there are to every rule. I thought Mask's appearance in Erevis Cale, for instance, was very appropriate. It just needs to be done correctly, which is "rare, meaningful, and memorable in a good way."
Cheers
Okay, that makes sense to me. And I didn’t mean to imply that I want every book to feature a god “in the flesh”. I understand it probably sounded that way, but I agree that it would get boring if every book had a god walking around. That would go against their purpose as gods. Some gods have always been more interactive with their followers than others throughout the history of the Realms than others. I guess I’m just trying to understand what their role will be post-Sundering, but some of that information may either not have been worked out, or we aren’t supposed to know yet. I just keep picking at this subject because it matters to me. But if they are going to be less active, very well, but clarity is important, IMO. But yes, they can be active without taking center stage. It just sounded like they would be inactive after the Sundering. If it will now be up to their followers, well that is okay with most gods ( some exceptions that come to mind), it’s been that way with the Realms for a long time. But I think the followers deserve to know about their god’s existence. The thing I’ve loved about the Realms isn’t just based on faith, but knowledge of the gods’ existence. People don’t have to guess. Do they know all the mysteries of the deities? Of course not, and they shouldn’t. But when the Spellplague happened, it became clear when certain gods died, so , IMO, it should be clear which ones are back and which ones never left.
Let’s use…Tempus as an example. Tempus survived the Spellplague, and his followers know he survived. It’s the knowledge that’s important to me, not necessarily whether or not a mortal, living warrior fights alongside Tempus (at least until they get to the afterlife). Let’s say I was an elf who lived in the Realms. I wouldn’t have to guess and cross my fingers that the Seldarine exist. I know. In the end, that’s really all I’m asking for: knowledge and clarity.
And I loved the way Mask was done in the Erevis Cale and Twilight Wars
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 05:39:10
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On Ao's gender: A true neutral deity is supposed to be either genderless or hermaphroditic.
On Mystra's ascension to Overgodhood: Rubbish. Plain rubbish. Making her active again is fine, as she should be, given how great the importance magic is treated with in the Realms. Boosting her powers so much more just so she would be virtually 'untouchable' wouldn't make sense. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 15:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
On Ao's gender: A true neutral deity is supposed to be either genderless or hermaphroditic.
Why? Where is it written that either gender can't be neutral?
Besides, deities are beyond gender. Just because a deity identifies as -- or is identified as, by their worshippers -- a particular gender, it doesn't mean it's anything beyond a point of reference to them.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
On Mystra's ascension to Overgodhood: Rubbish. Plain rubbish. Making her active again is fine, as she should be, given how great the importance magic is treated with in the Realms. Boosting her powers so much more just so she would be virtually 'untouchable' wouldn't make sense.
Why? Why does it not make sense to take the most powerful deity of a setting, kick them upstairs, and put them in a position where they don't pay attention to mortals?
I'm not saying I favor promoting Mystra, I just don't see an issue with tying magic to the overdeity. |
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Joebing
Learned Scribe
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2012 : 23:52:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The deities can be active without taking center stage. I feel like the Realms has seen enough deities taking center stage, a place more appropriate for mortal heroes.
There can and should be exceptions, of course, as there are to every rule. I thought Mask's appearance in Erevis Cale, for instance, was very appropriate. It just needs to be done correctly, which is "rare, meaningful, and memorable in a good way."
Cheers
I agree with this, however I feel a few deities that have been "forgotten" or killed should come back in some way. For example, Kiaranselee's followers made for great plot starters, aligning with other power groups or eventually becoming undead masters.
The best answer to all this lies in 3rd Editions Faiths & Pantheons Web Enhancement, Deity Do's & Don'ts. On the first page, it reads: "For most creatures in Faerûn, the deities are distant, immensely
powerful beings to be feared, respected, and worshipped, but never
seen or spoken to." My home campaign, now 10 years old in it's current incarnation, has had ONE encounter with a deity, and that was through a Ring of Three Wishes. The deities are there to give characters and NPC's a system of belief in a higher power, and to give good plot points by things followers of a particular deity will do in the name of said deity. Good example being when Lolth fell silent, which caused a major upheaval of drow society and enemies of the drow tried to wipe them from the face of Faerun. In the campaign I run, the drow of Menzoberranzan turned on the now powerless priestesses of Lolth after devoting themselves to another member of the Drow pantheon. Within a week, they also drove off the enemies that had Menzo under seige. This is why deities can come and go. The return of Mystra can only serve to fix the spellplague and repair the Weave. It shouldn't affect anyone's campaign worlds, unless deities are VERY common to run into. |
Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.
http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames
First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 00:42:28
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| I have been considering, that one way to convince old fans to come back to the setting would be via the release of a roleplaying computer game like the old baldurs gate 2 but set in the new age and with a huge map and a large degree of freedom in the storyline (I hate linear games) |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2012 : 00:49:41
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quote:
Plus, if Mystra is now Ao, she can't be worshipped any longer as a deity.
Oh no, my favoured characters has always been some kind of mystra worshiping wizards or wizard-clerics
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Baroth
Acolyte
Switzerland
14 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 08:00:39
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I will have to read through the thread after this, but concerning Mystra, it seems that the goddess of Magic is kind of a problem for some people. I never understood why it is so hard to solve this problem.
The problem: Mystra is a problem because she is and controls the biggest power source, i.e. the weave, in the realms (aside from AO). Controlling the weave would not be that much of a problem, but apparently Mystra nowadays has her own agenda besides promoting magic which embroils her in the game of the gods. However, killing her is not an option for the other gods because that would cause major problems for the world (apparently Cyric and Shar were too stupid to learn from the Karsus debacle). Therefore, she has a clear power advantage over the other gods and basically could impose her agenda.
The solution: Firstly, just disconnect Mystra from the weave. Make it so that the weave is an independent construct in this crystal sphere. Thus, if somebody kills Mystra, the weave still works. Secondly, change the job description of the holder of the portfolio of magic. Make it so that the holder has to maintain the weave, fix the weave, enforce the rules concerning the weave, and generally just promote the usage of magic and knowledge of magic. The first part of her job is basically being the person that comes to work every day and has to check the machine and fix the minor things that happen with normal usage. The second part of her job is that she has to really fix the weave if a cataclysm really damages the weave, i.e. she is the repair service for the machine. Naturally, make it so that if nobody is doing the first and second jobs, the weave continues to work for a couple of years (or so) until it stops working (just with a normal machine: it probably will work unattended for some time, but it will break down eventually). The third part of her job is to enforce the rules concerning the weave if there are any (I would rather make it so that the weave has inherent rules that cannot be circumvented). For example, if we assume that the rule that 10th level spells must not be cast is not 'hard-coded' into the weave, it would be up to her to stop casters from casting these spells. Finally, as the holder of the portfolio of Magic her primary concern is to spread the usage of magic and the knowledge about it. While she might have her own plans and agendas, they may not stop other people from using magic unless, of course, their use of magic would endanger the weave or break the rules concerning it. |
Edited by - Baroth on 14 Oct 2012 08:06:46 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 11:16:38
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| Why is why I believe that Mystra should become essentially the Goddess of wizards and that Ao should fill her post with ieither himself, or with an appointed individual independent from the games of devinity. The new "weave God" would not require worshipers, indeed not even be known by mortals, and their soul responsibility was to tend to the weave. I would be equally happy of the weave itself became self- aware on some level, given the years of imprinting by various imprintings by both Mystra and Char, to me this would be the most logical conclusion given what has happened to the weave, but I strongly doubt this will ever happen. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 17:27:55
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Interesting ideas!
Disconnecting Mystra from the Weave is tricky, if not impossible, since Mystra IS the Weave. They did disconnect her in 1385, and it caused all that devastation. The Weave then collapsed, so at this point (unless the Weave is reconstructed), we don't need a god to tend the Weave.
The question is whether we need a goddess of magic at all.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 18:17:42
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I think having Mystra back as normal god would be fine. All Wizards has to do is not place indestructible Chosen of Mystra all over the world. Since most the old Chosen are gone, all they really need to do is make them truly dead when they die now (or morphed into something else like Sylune, Vanderghast etc), with say the exception of Elminster and Storm etc.
The new Mystra might not even bother with the Chosen as we have known it. It just burns out people too fast and corrupts some (Sammaster). Maybe she will find a different way to do it, without imbuing folks with all that divine spellfire? I'd say this is the most likely scenario as El has mentioned at times how taking up Mystra's burden burns up even stalwart heroes like Khelben. Plus, his divine mandate with the War Wizards makes this seem like a potential avenue.
I want my Chosen of Mystra, I just don't want them in every kingdom and country of the Realms. Personally, I'd keep whatever is left of the "old guard" around and have Mystra take a new "path" for her servants like the above. I'd also keep the Chosen out of any sort of active rulership of any city or nation. They should be too busy putting out brushfires, blowing away Maulagrym, killing demons and closing rifts, and cleaning up Spellplague messes than actively ruling a place. More like free-agents.
Of course, with the player centric goal of the new Realms. It's entirely possible all the Chosen are going to retire and the PC's will have to take up their jobs. Now that is kind of a cool alternative. Instead of having Elminster save the world, he and the other old Chosen are teaching and training the PC's to do it instead. Much more epic and most likely satisfying for groups that way too. We could also have our old Mystra, goddess of Magic with this option too. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 14 Oct 2012 18:30:29 |
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Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 20:14:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
[
I realize most of this discussion is going to be based on the perspective of the D&D Player and/or GM, but to be fair, this forum isn't a D&D forum.
Those of us who are not currently playing in the Realms, but still love the Realms and read the Realms, absolutely cannot divorce ourselves from the canon. (That's essentially telling us to quit buying your books! )
This is a wonderful point. I am in the same position. The game I play in is in a world our DM created (which I love and he has been running for over 15 years) but I read the Realms, and the canon is part of the lure of the Realms for me. :D |
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Baroth
Acolyte
Switzerland
14 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 21:51:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Interesting ideas!
Disconnecting Mystra from the Weave is tricky, if not impossible, since Mystra IS the Weave. They did disconnect her in 1385, and it caused all that devastation. The Weave then collapsed, so at this point (unless the Weave is reconstructed), we don't need a god to tend the Weave.
The question is whether we need a goddess of magic at all.
Cheers
Naturally, Ao would be doing the disconnecting and that should not be very hard for him to do. Besides, think of it like extracting the personality of the goddess out of the weave into a body. You do not do anything with the weave, just extract the personality to get an automaton (i.e. a machine that needs to be looked after). I think even Mystra herself could do that and, as the good goddess she is, could probably provide a very good idea why she would do so, namely the disasters that happen if somebody else tries to take over her job.
A goddess or god of magic seems to be necessary as magic takes up a lot of time and space in the life of the Faerunians and normally every big aspect of human (or demi-human) life seems to have a goddess or god devoted to. |
Edited by - Baroth on 14 Oct 2012 21:55:15 |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
