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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2012 : 23:34:53
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Its a fairly simple solution - give the Weave back to Lurue (simply 'The Lurue', methinks they were one and the same in primordial times).
Then Mystra can become the goddess of Arcane Magic and spells. One power source, one specific (and still very broad) category. then she can have Chosen Exarch/Seraphs/Saints/etc for each school (including a few 'secret' ones that aren't common knowledge, like illusion).
Mages should be broken into three main casting types - Vancian (methodology), Power (drawn from within), and Channeling (usually divine, but can come from other sources, like nature). This is a purely mechanical thing (as part of the D&D system). Then we should keep schools - they've been around awhile and are considered a basic part of the game now. Although some schools could affect and be affecting by casting styles, in most cases that shouldn't matter. lastly, the first three main casting types should be further broken down.
Methodology - learning by rote and patterns - is mostly Vancian, but other forms, like runes and Bardic Magic, fall into this category. Anytime a pattern is needed to establish a 'spell matrix' (something that is able to warp reality) then that is a Methodologist.
'Power' comes from within. Dragons and other creatures use this method, but humans can learn it as well. The most common form (amongst PCs) is a mystic (psion), but other forms exist as well, like Spellfire users or Incarnum wielders (and maybe Warlocks).
Channelers can be druidic (nature magic), Divine, or even direct draw like defilers (this works best for necromancers - the channel from living sources present).
So when you combine the three basic casting styles with the eight spell schools (and specializations), you get 24 different types of magic users right off the bat. When you add further customization like sub-types and Divine speciality priests, the list grows exponentially.
I almost lost my point... the idea is that there opportunities for lots and lots of deities to have to be 'gods of magic' in very specific sets of circumstances. Suppose we bring back spells for assassins - that would mean Baal could possibly be the god of magic in that particular area (and the lines get blurred - is it divine magic, or a type 'regular magic' specialized in covert murder)?
Even in FR lore, when someone cast a spell that reveals 'the truth', both Mystra and Oghma should receive power for their portfolio, but if someone casts a spell that obfuscates the truth, then Mystra and Shar should receive power from that. The problem comes in in that Mystra is like the 'magical mafia' - she gets a kick-back from every transaction. Thats what needs to be limited in 5e. She shouldn't be getting her 'piece of the action' every time. It should go by intent - magic for magic sake falls under her purview, but not magic with an intent that falls into some other god's portfolio. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Oct 2012 23:35:31 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 07:27:21
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| This is interesting, Markustay! I hadn't thought of that. And also, to blur the line further, aren't those who follow Mystra using both divine and arcane magic? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 10:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Even in FR lore, when someone cast a spell that reveals 'the truth', both Mystra and Oghma should receive power for their portfolio, but if someone casts a spell that obfuscates the truth, then Mystra and Shar should receive power from that. The problem comes in in that Mystra is like the 'magical mafia' - she gets a kick-back from every transaction. Thats what needs to be limited in 5e. She shouldn't be getting her 'piece of the action' every time. It should go by intent - magic for magic sake falls under her purview, but not magic with an intent that falls into some other god's portfolio.
Could not disagree more. Using this logic, someone that wants sunshine just to be able to travel would be worshipping a god of travel, while someone who wants it to be able to plant his crops would be worshipping yet another deity -- even though neither Shaundakul nor Chauntea have any influence at all over sunlight.
Why should intent of use have any bearing at all? No matter the intent, you're still drawing on the same thing.
Here's another way of looking at it: the power company doesn't care if I'm using electricity to watch TV in the dark, or if I'm using the same amount to light every room in my house from dusk until dawn. The intent doesn't matter, I'm still using the same electricity, and it costs the same amount. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 10:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
This is interesting, Markustay! I hadn't thought of that. And also, to blur the line further, aren't those who follow Mystra using both divine and arcane magic?
In the Realms, there is no arcane magic or divine magic -- all magic comes from the Weave. Deities just filter it when granting magic to their followers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 12:11:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
This is interesting, Markustay! I hadn't thought of that. And also, to blur the line further, aren't those who follow Mystra using both divine and arcane magic?
In the Realms, there is no arcane magic or divine magic -- all magic comes from the Weave. Deities just filter it when granting magic to their followers.
Completely untrue.
Magic of Faerun page 8:
"Any magic that doesn’t have its origin in the power of a
deity is arcane magic. (While all magic is accessed through
the Weave, which is maintained by a deity, this does not
make all magic divine magic.)"
And regarding this:
quote:
Why should intent of use have any bearing at all? No matter the intent, you're still drawing on the same thing.
Intention is EVERYTHING when it comes to the Powers. |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 14:49:28
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I believe, it will not be liked with the upset old fans if AO behaves in this way
Many of the old fans are now old enough that they have been raising their own kids. AO's behaviour is very different from the parent-philosophies there will be using / have been using in the families they have been raising.
Kind of a problem, if you have an overgod using a parenthood philosophy there is very different from the parenthood-philosophy you believe in and is trying to follow.
Seems to me it will create mental disconnect to the campaign world
quote:
Originally posted by Laeknir
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
No vacation, no incompetence, nothing. AO left the coffee grinder running without a filter for a century ON PURPOSE. The gods made their bed--he's just letting them sleep in it for a while. They thought they could do things their own way, free of him and his authority, so he left for a century so they could try it out, and what happened?
Chaos.
A world on the brink.
We see the devastation in the Realms in very human terms and wonder why AO would possibly leave the Realms running the way they did between 1385 and 1485. We can call AO cruel or unfeeling or senseless, but the truth is that he is showing the gods what happens without him. It may have been painful for him to watch, or he may look at it completely without feeling. He's thinking long-term, and a long-term Realms without AO is unsustainable--this was just him proving it.
In all possibility and likelihood, question AO's method as we might, he had to do something to maintain the survival of Abeir and Toril. That is his job, and he will do whatever it takes to do it.
Unfortunately, this line of thinking just reinforces the "there is only one true god, a 'God the Father' that must be obeyed in all things" that a LOT of people didn't and don't like.
Most people didn't like the AO concept when it was introduced in the ToT, so it was rightfully minimized for a long time. People disliked the idea that AO returned for a cameo "guess what, I made Abeir, and I'll let you suffer with this Spellplague thing."
AO is disliked - as a game concept - for many reasons. Yet here comes AO once again as the KEY reason for having this new Sundering, mucking up the backstory and history, with new "reveals" and the like.
This version of AO furthermore becomes the ultimate awful "parent" figure, allowing a child's loved pets to suffer horribly and die painfully over a long period of time simply in order to teach the child a lesson. It's the perfect picture of patriarchal authoritarian bad-father imagery that's being allowed to happen here. This, we are supposed to want for the Realms?
Even worse, it puts the gods into the role of abused-bullied children. Can't fight anything AO says or does, since he's the ultimate power, regardless of how dumb and stupid he becomes.
Are designers actually listening to us? Unfortunately, I strongly believe at this point that the Realms are way too screwed up to use for gaming. I still follow a few novels, but that's it really.
This isn't just a bad idea. It's bad design. Once it's canon, you cannot escape it as a DM or player. The only option is to stop buying it and move to some other game setting that doesn't have these glaring problems.
Frankly, it would've been 100% better to have revealed that AO died, and had been slowly dying because of the original theft of the Tablets of Fate. With AO's death, it could explain why Mystra was so weakened, why the Celestial planes were in disorder, and even why the Spellplague happened. Then, Tyr could have been forced to ascend into AO's former position - taking on a fatherly role of trying to clean up the mess. Tyr might also have been unable to prevent this Sundering, as too many variables had occurred before he took on his new position. But no, instead we have AO the jerk father going around being a total jerk.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 15:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its a fairly simple solution - give the Weave back to Lurue (simply 'The Lurue', methinks they were one and the same in primordial times).
Then Mystra can become the goddess of Arcane Magic and spells. One power source, one specific (and still very broad) category. then she can have Chosen Exarch/Seraphs/Saints/etc for each school (including a few 'secret' ones that aren't common knowledge, like illusion).
LOL, I just had to do a double take to see which of us posted first (I created the other thread wondering whether this new Mystra is in reality Lurue). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 15:37:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren
I believe, it will not be liked with the upset old fans if AO behaves in this way
Many of the old fans are now old enough that they have been raising their own kids. AO's behaviour is very different from the parent-philosophies there will be using / have been using in the families they have been raising.
Kind of a problem, if you have an overgod using a parenthood philosophy there is very different from the parenthood-philosophy you believe in and is trying to follow.
Seems to me it will create mental disconnect to the campaign world.
I've already argued against that being a "God the Father" or "AO the chiding parent" behavior. That isn't the point. All AO is doing is letting the gods act without limits, and then he ultimately has to step in to restore the Realms as try are supposed to be.
I'd be interested in discussing this further with you, Gust, but you just posted a thread about how you are completely uninterested in 4e FR or DnD-Next, so I worry our discussion will turn into another of those fonts of negativity I discussed earlier. I'd rather keep this thread about "finding solutions" rather than "pointing out problems." We know there are problems--it's time to find solutions and move on.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 16:05:30
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I did write that post in another thread since I remembered you wanted to focus this thread on potential solutions
I do not think that 5e FR can be saved for me since It is mostly nostalgia for old times with friends and old campaigns there sustain my interest for the realms and that is hard to reconcile with a timejump, but it does not prevent me for giving a hand to help find solutions to some of the problems in FR |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 15 Oct 2012 16:17:22 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 16:39:37
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Seems Sleyvas and I are on the same page here: This from another thread -
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
My view at this time is that Mystra should be there as a goddess of magic. However, she should not have total and complete control of the weave. She should be the "lady of mysteries" as she was before, and she should represent magic in all of its varied majesties (whether wizard, priest, binder, incarnum wielder, etc...). There then should be OTHER gods of magic, but those gods should be representing aspects of "magic". For instance, Auppenser as a god of the psionic arts, Azuth as a god of transmutation and defensive magics, Leira as a goddess of illusions and nefarious enchantments, Savras as a god of research and divination magic, Malyk (Talos alias) as a god of wild and destructive magics, Shar as a goddess of darkness/shadow magic. These shouldn't be separate weaves, nor should any of these deities have ultimate control over their field of magic. However, perhaps they can bestow their favor upon those who call upon them when performing works in their name, etc....
And this from above.....
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its a fairly simple solution - give the Weave back to Lurue (simply 'The Lurue', methinks they were one and the same in primordial times).
Then Mystra can become the goddess of Arcane Magic and spells. One power source, one specific (and still very broad) category. then she can have Chosen Exarch/Seraphs/Saints/etc for each school (including a few 'secret' ones that aren't common knowledge, like illusion).
LOL, I just had to do a double take to see which of us posted first (I created the other thread wondering whether this new Mystra is in reality Lurue).
The above quote (from the other thread) didn't say anything about Lurue - still looking for that. However, you seem to have gone into more detail about the same exact thing I was saying, so I figure it was worth porting-over to this thread. I have been saying all along that Mystra was never THE goddess of magic. She is the goddess of Arcane Vancian magic, which is just one specific type which became very popular, and thanks to the propaganda spread by her church for over a millenia, most folks don't even realize they have a choice.
Now Mystryl is another story. We have information in the RotAW series that she was the deity of the 'complete' Weave, which may not have been 'all magic', but was a helluva lot more substantial then what either Mystra was in control of. I think this just might be a simple case of Mystra 1.0 having less power then her predecessor, but better PR people. Rather then try to control all magic (as Mystryl probably did), she focused on one aspect of it and sold it to the public as the 'bestest magic eva'.
None of this is new - we've not only had Azuth, Sevras, and Velsharoon but we've also had Corellon (Elven magic) and Thoth (Southern magic), and IIRC wasn't Liira in charge of illusion? Now add-in all the Chosen, who are technically the equivalent of saints/demipowers. And then there's Lurue. In what edition was Mystra EVER the goddess of 'all magic'? I am not sure if that was a purposeful misconception within the setting, or another case of (non-)fans misunderstanding the lore (those preconceptions that actually lead to all the changes made in 4e). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Oct 2012 16:41:36 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 16:49:55
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well, one of my problems with the old realms was actually, that it seemed, magic was basically the same in the different parts of the world even though there was different gods of magic and that ought in my mind to have created a greater difference in magic
I did realise, there were mechanisms in the form of regional feats there could create some variations, but those would also function in other parts of the world under control of other gods of magic and that created explanation problems for me.
One possibility
The weave was unstable do to one regional god controlling it but it being affected by the actions and decisions of other gods
If they did not coordinate good enough would it become more unstable. In some cases was it outright sabotage (shar's actions) and in some cases just conflicts over what magic the weave should support (mystra, thoth)
AO realised this was a flaw there had to be corrected, but in order to do that, would he first have to allow the weave to crash (via a spellplague event) in order to be able to reconstruct a weave without this designflaw
The explanation above does not really solve my primary problems with the new realms (spellplague, timejump) but it might prevent a new problem from occuring (having AO seem to have a parenthood philosophy different from the one many old fans will have due to their experience in raising their kids) |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 15 Oct 2012 16:55:19 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 18:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now Mystryl is another story. We have information in the RotAW series that she was the deity of the 'complete' Weave, which may not have been 'all magic', but was a helluva lot more substantial then what either Mystra was in control of.
Do you have something, like a citation, to back this up? It's a little difficult to read your posts, especially when the scroll is supposed to be about canon and instead you write a bunch of speculation/attempt to fuse the fantasy setting with your world-view. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 18:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
This is interesting, Markustay! I hadn't thought of that. And also, to blur the line further, aren't those who follow Mystra using both divine and arcane magic?
In the Realms, there is no arcane magic or divine magic -- all magic comes from the Weave. Deities just filter it when granting magic to their followers.
Completely untrue.
Magic of Faerun page 8:
"Any magic that doesn’t have its origin in the power of a
deity is arcane magic. (While all magic is accessed through
the Weave, which is maintained by a deity, this does not
make all magic divine magic.)"
You are misreading me. ALL magic comes from the Weave. There can be no god of arcane magic and no god of divine magic, because it all comes from the same source. Mystra can cut off a deity's access to the Weave, to the point where that deity can't grant spells.
So arcane and divine only refer to the immediate origin, not to the type itself. It's similar to how I can plug a device into a wall outlet or I can put batteries in the device, but either way, it is operating on electricity.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
And regarding this:
quote:
Why should intent of use have any bearing at all? No matter the intent, you're still drawing on the same thing.
Intention is EVERYTHING when it comes to the Powers.
Not at all. Again, saying intent matters would mean that if someone waited for daylight to commit a crime, then Mask would benefit from the crime and from the daylight. Unless you can give me a canon reference that says that's the case, I am correct. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 19:04:38
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No, you are incorrect; and unless you can give me a canon reference to the contrary, you will remain incorrect.
(Oh, and there is some misreading going on... on your part, of the sourcebooks.)
I will give you an example of 'intent' and worship.
A Faerunian farmer prays to Chauntea: "Oh, Chauntea, please help my crops to grow. This rainy weather has been terrible!"
The crops need more sunlight to grow.
Chauntea sends an avatar to Wooly Wild Realms: "Sorry, faithful parishioner. I would love to help your crops flourish, but unfortunately, *Lathander* is the current god of sunshine. You are out of luck."
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
This is interesting, Markustay! I hadn't thought of that. And also, to blur the line further, aren't those who follow Mystra using both divine and arcane magic?
In the Realms, there is no arcane magic or divine magic -- all magic comes from the Weave. Deities just filter it when granting magic to their followers.
Completely untrue.
Magic of Faerun page 8:
"Any magic that doesn’t have its origin in the power of a
deity is arcane magic. (While all magic is accessed through
the Weave, which is maintained by a deity, this does not
make all magic divine magic.)"
You are misreading me. ALL magic comes from the Weave. There can be no god of arcane magic and no god of divine magic, because it all comes from the same source. Mystra can cut off a deity's access to the Weave, to the point where that deity can't grant spells.
So arcane and divine only refer to the immediate origin, not to the type itself. It's similar to how I can plug a device into a wall outlet or I can put batteries in the device, but either way, it is operating on electricity.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
And regarding this:
quote:
Why should intent of use have any bearing at all? No matter the intent, you're still drawing on the same thing.
Intention is EVERYTHING when it comes to the Powers.
Not at all. Again, saying intent matters would mean that if someone waited for daylight to commit a crime, then Mask would benefit from the crime and from the daylight. Unless you can give me a canon reference that says that's the case, I am correct.
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 19:51:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now Mystryl is another story. We have information in the RotAW series that she was the deity of the 'complete' Weave, which may not have been 'all magic', but was a helluva lot more substantial then what either Mystra was in control of.
Do you have something, like a citation, to back this up? It's a little difficult to read your posts, especially when the scroll is supposed to be about canon and instead you write a bunch of speculation/attempt to fuse the fantasy setting with your world-view.
There was something in the netheril boxed set, that the weave at that time also supported heavy magic prior to karsus folly and did not do so after since the new mystra removed access to some magic stuff. I think, there was some other books there later mentioned it had consequences in order to make the shadow weave possible for shar |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 20:08:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Interesting ideas!
Disconnecting Mystra from the Weave is tricky, if not impossible, since Mystra IS the Weave. They did disconnect her in 1385, and it caused all that devastation. The Weave then collapsed, so at this point (unless the Weave is reconstructed), we don't need a god to tend the Weave.
The question is whether we need a goddess of magic at all.
Cheers
In the neitherese box set, there was a book, entitled "how the might has fallen" It delt specificly with the last days of the Netherese empire. They discuss Mystral's death in that book and specificly state near the end of the book that Mystra tends to the weave, but isn't the weave, that Mystral and the weave are one, but that after the death of Mystral it is no longer the case. It does on to state that Char obtained the Shadow weave during this time. That might have said developed, not sure on that point. I am sure on the other points though, I'd give you page numbers, but my PDFs don't seem to show that. There probably there, but just aren't being said by my screen-reader. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 21:22:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Baroth
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Interesting ideas!
Disconnecting Mystra from the Weave is tricky, if not impossible, since Mystra IS the Weave. They did disconnect her in 1385, and it caused all that devastation. The Weave then collapsed, so at this point (unless the Weave is reconstructed), we don't need a god to tend the Weave.
The question is whether we need a goddess of magic at all.
Cheers
A goddess or god of magic seems to be necessary as magic takes up a lot of time and space in the life of the Faerunians and normally every big aspect of human (or demi-human) life seems to have a goddess or god devoted to.
I disagree. Magic is just a tool people use. There isn't a god of swords. There's a god of warfare(several, in fact). But wizards can be as involved in warfare as fighters can.
Point being, I believe spell casters shouldn't choose their deity based on the tools and skill set they employ(magic), but rather on their personal philosophies and world views.
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"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 22:34:05
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Tempus is a lord of battles, aka martial prowess
The reknight is th goddess of battles by strategy
whats is name is the god of war by its mindless slaughter side of war.
the red knight might support arcane casters, whats his name doesnt seem to likely and Tempus is not too likely.
and then there are various otherdeities that could be considered a war god such as Talos/Gruumsh......the talso aspect might but Gruumsh values only the strong..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 22:42:41
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You're thinking too narrowly, from the gods down. I'm thinking from the worshipers up.
A warmage can worship Tempus, believing that the Lord of Battles understands the place of arcane magic in war- as artillery, as vital support. A wizard who is also tyrannical and unyielding in nature might turn to Bane. A sorcerer who throws about wild and chaotic magic could easily turn to Gruumsh.
It's not about what the gods themselves support. It's about the mortals interpreting them as they will. And gods only turn away worshipers when they go far afield from their tenets; all of this is still easily within their purview. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 22:43:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Seems Sleyvas and I are on the same page here: This from another thread -
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
My view at this time is that Mystra should be there as a goddess of magic. However, she should not have total and complete control of the weave. She should be the "lady of mysteries" as she was before, and she should represent magic in all of its varied majesties (whether wizard, priest, binder, incarnum wielder, etc...). There then should be OTHER gods of magic, but those gods should be representing aspects of "magic". For instance, Auppenser as a god of the psionic arts, Azuth as a god of transmutation and defensive magics, Leira as a goddess of illusions and nefarious enchantments, Savras as a god of research and divination magic, Malyk (Talos alias) as a god of wild and destructive magics, Shar as a goddess of darkness/shadow magic. These shouldn't be separate weaves, nor should any of these deities have ultimate control over their field of magic. However, perhaps they can bestow their favor upon those who call upon them when performing works in their name, etc....
And this from above.....
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its a fairly simple solution - give the Weave back to Lurue (simply 'The Lurue', methinks they were one and the same in primordial times).
Then Mystra can become the goddess of Arcane Magic and spells. One power source, one specific (and still very broad) category. then she can have Chosen Exarch/Seraphs/Saints/etc for each school (including a few 'secret' ones that aren't common knowledge, like illusion).
LOL, I just had to do a double take to see which of us posted first (I created the other thread wondering whether this new Mystra is in reality Lurue).
The above quote (from the other thread) didn't say anything about Lurue - still looking for that. However, you seem to have gone into more detail about the same exact thing I was saying, so I figure it was worth porting-over to this thread. I have been saying all along that Mystra was never THE goddess of magic. She is the goddess of Arcane Vancian magic, which is just one specific type which became very popular, and thanks to the propaganda spread by her church for over a millenia, most folks don't even realize they have a choice.
Now Mystryl is another story. We have information in the RotAW series that she was the deity of the 'complete' Weave, which may not have been 'all magic', but was a helluva lot more substantial then what either Mystra was in control of. I think this just might be a simple case of Mystra 1.0 having less power then her predecessor, but better PR people. Rather then try to control all magic (as Mystryl probably did), she focused on one aspect of it and sold it to the public as the 'bestest magic eva'.
None of this is new - we've not only had Azuth, Sevras, and Velsharoon but we've also had Corellon (Elven magic) and Thoth (Southern magic), and IIRC wasn't Liira in charge of illusion? Now add-in all the Chosen, who are technically the equivalent of saints/demipowers. And then there's Lurue. In what edition was Mystra EVER the goddess of 'all magic'? I am not sure if that was a purposeful misconception within the setting, or another case of (non-)fans misunderstanding the lore (those preconceptions that actually lead to all the changes made in 4e).
Yeah, in this "scenario" where Mystra ends up being a goddess of the "mysteries of magic" in general, she might not be the goddess that the average wizard calls upon. The necromancers may call upon Velsharoon, and the illusionists on Leira, and maybe enchanters call upon Sune. However, for those people who have sought to explore multiple types of magic because they love the sheer mystery that is magic itself.... they may call on Mystra. For example, someone that becomes a meta-mind (psionicist/arcanist), or an anima mage (binder/arcanist), or an ultimate magi (learning two arcane disciplines), or an eldritch theurge (warlock / arcanist) are all individuals who are combining multiple magical disciplines... they might be more inclined towards Mystra. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 22:49:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Tempus is a lord of battles, aka martial prowess
The reknight is th goddess of battles by strategy
whats is name is the god of war by its mindless slaughter side of war.
the red knight might support arcane casters, whats his name doesnt seem to likely and Tempus is not too likely.
and then there are various otherdeities that could be considered a war god such as Talos/Gruumsh......the talso aspect might but Gruumsh values only the strong.....
Garagos is the 3rd deity you were looking for... and yes, I can definitely see the red knight being a goddess for some wizards. In particular, I can see the red knight being a goddess for "battlemages" like eldritch knights, spellswords, warmages, and Raumathari Battlemages. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 23:03:58
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My understanding is that the Red knight is the Goddess of Stratagy, a mage is a mage is a mage, he might pray to the red knight regarding some stratagical point, like trying to engage in a decaption action to rout a greater enemy, but if he wants to have a greater fireball then he'd pray to Mystra.
Think of it like this,
"Oh Red Knight, lady of stratagy and marshal planning, grant me Keenness of wit to devine the best leaders to defeat. Enhance my perception that I find them quickly, descernment to comprehend what my eyes behold, and sureness of though to not waver in my action." To Mystra he quickly prays, "Lady of Mysteries, majestic lady, grant me strength in this casting, let my evocation destroy my fows..."
You get the idea. either one could be his/her patrin God, but that by no means limits the number of prayers engaged in to obtain devine favor. Ed once said that a backer might pray to several Gods/Godesses over a good year for their shop, including agriculture, weather, and merchantalism. Given this I don't see giving the Red Knight any say in magic, even battle magic seems like a logical action. Since Stratagy and magic are not aquivilent. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 23:21:07
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| I'm not saying they are. I'm saying that a wizard/sorcerer/warlock/whatever that is focused on warfare could pray to Tempus, Red Knight, Garagos, Bane, or Gruumsh for guidance in matters of warfare. Magic is no different than a sword; it's just another weapon. A tool. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2012 : 23:57:52
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I understand the tool aspect, mages don't pray to mystra for their spells, but I don't see the logic in praying for the red knight for anything but stratagy, since that's the part of warfar she deals with. Those engaging in stratagy should, or might pray to her for guideance and/or success, whether mage or not, otherwise, what's the point?
Not to be contrary, I just don't see the logic in what you are saying. Just because a mage makes warfar their central profession doesn't ensure that his/her paitren has to be realited to that area. In making of a mage, Mystra comments that she is the Godess of magic, but many wizards do not pray to her, meaning that either have other beings that they pray to, or don't pray to anyone at all; as was the case of many of the powerful Netherese wizards. I bring up this last point to demonstrate that just because one does something, like magic, doesn't mean that they necesarly are particularly faithful to the being that represents that action.
It's possible that I'm missing something here. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
Edited by - Sightless on 15 Oct 2012 23:59:16 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 00:16:09
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I'm using war gods as an example; I'm not saying they'd be praying to them exclusively.
What I'm saying is that a a god/dess of magic is as unnecessary as a god of swords. A wizard will chose their patron based on their personality, their goals, their life style philosophy, and they'll pray to many gods for many reasons. There's a time to pray to Tempus and a time to pray to Waukeem, but Mystra's only purpose is that of magic. No one who isn't a magic uses has any reason to ever pray to her, other than perhaps praying that the mage who's about to burn them to death fail in his casting, which wouldn't work, anyway. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 00:17:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm using war gods as an example; I'm not saying they'd be praying to them exclusively.
What I'm saying is that a a god/dess of magic is as unnecessary as a god of swords. A wizard will chose their patron based on their personality, their goals, their life style philosophy, and they'll pray to many gods for many reasons. There's a time to pray to Tempus and a time to pray to Waukeem, but Mystra's only purpose is that of magic. No one who isn't a magic uses has any reason to ever pray to her, other than perhaps praying that the mage who's about to burn them to death fail in his casting, which wouldn't work, anyway.
Now, that makes perfect sense. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 04:31:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm using war gods as an example; I'm not saying they'd be praying to them exclusively.
What I'm saying is that a a god/dess of magic is as unnecessary as a god of swords. A wizard will chose their patron based on their personality, their goals, their life style philosophy, and they'll pray to many gods for many reasons. There's a time to pray to Tempus and a time to pray to Waukeem, but Mystra's only purpose is that of magic. No one who isn't a magic uses has any reason to ever pray to her, other than perhaps praying that the mage who's about to burn them to death fail in his casting, which wouldn't work, anyway.
I'm sure you will appreciate someone playing Devil's Advocate, so here goes: You many not have a god of swords, but people that don't just use swords, but appreciate their creation and the craft that go into them often worship gods of the forge and craftsmanship.
The same is true of magic. If you are just using magic as a tool, and learn exactly what you need to get the job done, they you are likely worshiping Oghma or Tempus or whomever is most likely to watch over your profession, which you augment with magic.
If you love the actual craft and skill of working magic, you learn new spells for the joy of working new magic, and you seek to craft your own spells and items in order to perfect your mastery of the Art, you likely worship a god of magic. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 04:42:14
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And my rebuttle to this is that if we follow your logic, they'd more likely to worship the weave directly, and Mystra is not, the weave, hasn't been since Mystral's death. They have been seperate, and therefore, following this logic, were back to the conclusion that we don't need a goddess of magic, but, Mystra's church could go this route, someone must tend to the weave, and Ao has been doing it all along. the problem here is that most folks, don't know who Ao is, so they've going to have to explain who Ao is, and then explain that Mystra is needed to tend the weave, and those the war begins... a war of ideas, where the battleground is belief. Mystras enemies can simply work to discount this and thus increase the likelyhood that she doesn't come back.
We could make a story out of it,
possibly even some campaign supplements,
Fans might like it,
they could still not bring back Mystra,
they could make the whole thing based on how many groups succeed working for what group,
and I should stop this train of thought now.
Oh, even if all this takes place, Mystra might not be entirely neccesary for magic to exist, Ao might have actually been doing nothing, just letting the weave sort itself out on it's own. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 05:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I'm using war gods as an example; I'm not saying they'd be praying to them exclusively.
What I'm saying is that a a god/dess of magic is as unnecessary as a god of swords. A wizard will chose their patron based on their personality, their goals, their life style philosophy, and they'll pray to many gods for many reasons. There's a time to pray to Tempus and a time to pray to Waukeem, but Mystra's only purpose is that of magic. No one who isn't a magic uses has any reason to ever pray to her, other than perhaps praying that the mage who's about to burn them to death fail in his casting, which wouldn't work, anyway.
I'm sure you will appreciate someone playing Devil's Advocate, so here goes: You many not have a god of swords, but people that don't just use swords, but appreciate their creation and the craft that go into them often worship gods of the forge and craftsmanship.
The same is true of magic. If you are just using magic as a tool, and learn exactly what you need to get the job done, they you are likely worshiping Oghma or Tempus or whomever is most likely to watch over your profession, which you augment with magic.
If you love the actual craft and skill of working magic, you learn new spells for the joy of working new magic, and you seek to craft your own spells and items in order to perfect your mastery of the Art, you likely worship a god of magic.
Or you could worship, say, Sune or Gond, or (loathe as I am to say it), Corellon. Because even then, magic simply becomes a tool, not of warfare or knowledge, but one of art and beauty. As a wizard who worships Tempus would use magic instead of a sword for battle, a wizard who worships one of these deities uses magic instead of a canvas as a form of expression.
And, assuming we did have a deity dedicated to the use of magic for magic's sake, I believe that would represent a comparatively small portion of the magic using population, rendering said hypothetical deity, be it Mystra or a new comer, considerably below the rank of Greater Deity.
Which I'm ok with, actually. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2012 : 05:09:55
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| I will let that Corellon comment slide, CoA...for now lol |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
