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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 18:22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shar is the better villain, because she is covert. Cyric is too overt.
Its like the difference between Dr.Doom (or Loki) and The Abomination (or The Lizard). Despite his much-acclaimed chaotic behavior, you can pretty-much figure out what he'd do in any given situation. His insanity makes him predictable.
Shar is subtle. The 'wheels within wheels' Machivellian style of manipulations is better in-keeping to how the Realms in-general works. Nothing is ever as it seems. Cyric is just too "in your face" evil - not the best fit for FR.
EDIT: I just had an odd thought; I don't really like Cyric (thats putting it mildly), but I think I would like him as an archfiend - a demon prince or some-such. We've had cases of deities being 'down-graded' to demon Lords before - I think I might like him in that role - almost like a demonic version of Asmodeus.
Shar may be a better villain than Cyric, but what about Moander? He was around during the same timeframe. I think Talos was, as well. There could have been mortal factions influencing Karsus, as well, and not necessarily just among the humans of Netheril.
And for the 3.x and 4E eras, there are other factions then, as well, like the Twisted Rune, the Rundeen, Zhents, Thayans, fey'ri, any number of evil spellcasters/fiends/powers, and so many more. The Realms is crawling with forces for good, but it's also crawling with forces for evil. It has more than just Chosen of Mystra and Shades, and I should really like to see more of those other groups. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Oct 2012 18:27:48 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 21:00:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There's enough misleading evidence in either direction (if there is an "either" direction and not about 15 different directions) as to what Mystra/Mystryl's role was regarding "magic" and her stewardship. I think the best thing to do is to define "her" role going forward, which is what Ao will be re-writing with the new tablets of fate. Let's take some of the other gods as examples (noting on the examples I'm giving, I'm only focusing on their aspect to magic). Azuth is undoubtedly the "god of wizards" and some would say he would accept sorcerors and warmages too.... but I'd prefer it if he were the god of "magic through research" and therefore he could also be a god to artificers. Savras is undoubtedly the "god of divinations" no matter which class is performing the divination. Velsharoon is undoubtedly the "the god of necromantic magic" no matter which class is wielding it (wizard, sorceror, cleric, dread necromancer, necrocarnate, etc..) . Milil and Oghma would be the gods of "bard magic". Leira would be the "goddess of illusion magic" no matter which class is wielding it (wizard, sorceror, beguiler, cleric, etc..). Deneir could be a god of "magic symbology and interpretation" and thereby attract wizards and artificers and those bards who focus on things like poetry/acting rather than music. Mystra should become the goddes of "the mysteries that are magic" and thereby for those individuals not wanting to focus on an aspect of their love of magic, but rather the magic itself, no matter what the source. She shouldn't be controlling the weave and denying access to the weave.... at least not in its entirety. She may be there to act as a control though to prevent the other gods from raiding the cupboard overmuch however. (i.e. she gives them a warning privately, then perhaps she sends out a notice to the other gods of improper use of the weave that needs to be policed <which may result in those gods issuing kill orders through their clergy>, then if none of that works she informs Ao).
On the above, I would stress here... the worst thing we could try to do is to try and map out exactly HOW the weave works as pertains to the gods (now how it works to mortals... that's worth looking at). In fact, I'd stress, even the gods (beyond Mystra... and even she may have difficulties) may only understand their means of linking and pulling from "the weave".
As pertains to her making magic easier to wield by wizards, this could be a combined thing to all these various gods. Maybe Leira makes a "spell construct/paradigm" that makes accessing "improved invisibility" an easier thing to form from raw magic. This "spell construct/paradigm" is then made a portion of the weave and available to certain "types" of casters... perhaps after Mystra reviews the "spell construct/paradigm" for inconsistencies and flaws. Afterward, Leira and/or Mystra could offer to make changes to the "spell construct/paradigm". Maybe initially they only make it available wizards. However, later, Mystra or another deity wants to start offering this access to psionicists, shadowmages or binders (maybe with modifications that are class specific). Note binders and warlocks make for another interesting piece of all this, as the vestiges and/or patrons are not deities, but perhaps these beings have learned how to "unlock" certain of these "spell constructs/paradigms" to allow them to be used by those who call upon them for power.
You know what... just because my mind is now stuck in this mode... need to flesh this out more.
So, the various "deities of aspects of magic" are responsible for making these "spell constructs/paradigms" and getting them "ok"'d by Mystra. However, one thing that Mystra may also be responsible for is making appropriate modifications to these "spell constructs/paradigms" so that they will work with the magical setups in other crystal spheres. So, let's play with an idea here.... some god of magic changes a "spell construct/paradigm" for say improved invisibility in another crystal sphere and sends it our for review by other deities of magic. They all agree "yes, lets change how the improved invisibility spell construct works in all our spheres to this new version". Thus, this could be why a wizard leaves FR and goes to Greyhawk and his spells work the same. However, to take another example, a god of magic changes the same "spell construct/paradigm" for the same spell and sends it out for review (maybe to put it on a new class's spell list)... and Mystra doesn't accept it. Now that spell continues to work the same for all the other classes, but its not available to the "new class" that it was added for in the other crystal sphere. Similiarly, the other crystal sphere may change the mechanics of the spell instead of just a class list thing(duration, range, etc...), and if Mystra doesn't modify her version, then if someone from this world goes to the other crystal sphere and tries their version there.... it doesn't work at all.
This could explain how wizards who don't have access to "the weave" can still cast when they leave our world. Similarly, a person with a certain class may go to another crystal sphere where that god of magic hasn't modified its spell constructs to include any members of said class, and suddenly they find themselves powerless.
This could also easily explain away how magic changes between editions without some RSE. Maybe there's some kind of multi-spheric council where gods of magic go to discuss how they want magic to work. Maybe in this council there's even something akin to political factions (i.e. there's the low-magic party, the high-magic party, the "spells above 9th lvl" party, the epic magic party, the elves need a special epic magic party, the psionics&magic interact party, the psionics&magic are separate party, the allow-all-these-alternate classes party, the magic has an alignment party, the healing should be necromancy party, the magic should be controlled by cosmic occurrences party) who spin up their own ideas, share them, and Mystra takes bits and pieces from each to figure out what she wants the magic of Toril to be like. Thus, in each crystal sphere, magic will MOSTLY work the same.
Finally, whenever say someone in Greyhawk does "research" to create a new spell... lets call it Bigby's groin massaging hand... its in essence creating a spell construct/paradigm for review by the gods. If they give it their blessing, it becomes available in Greyhawk. They then "show" this spell construct to Mystra, who agrees, great idea and copies the work over to Toril. However, the construct is there, but noone knows it. So, she instills the idea into a scroll which she gives to her chosen to hide... or presents it as a gift in return for an offering at her temple.
Please guys, read through this and shoot it with holes for the things I'm not thinking about.... because at this moment, I'm kind of thinking I've come up with a pretty good idea and there's this part of me that says its way too simple. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 21:05:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Our view of the Realms is indeed based on hearsay obtained from Elminster. He was the original source of lore about the realms, when he visited Ed for the first time. He isn't the muse for all of us, but the realms wouldn't exist in our imagination if he hasn't shown up that day and opened Ed's eyes to a vibrant other world. As such, we don't have objective truth but instead unreliable narration.
It's kinda like saying English theatre is based on Shakespeare.
My work is based on hearsay as well, though not from Elminster. Mine comes from a certain elf shadowdancer who often wakes me up in the middle of the night to tell me fantastic stories of a world far from our own. Do I trust everything she says 100%? Not remotely, but they make for awesome stories.
Cheers
Its got to be better than the one that wakes me up. I don't even own a gun, and the man's made me start ordering guns and ammo magazine just so he can see the ideas. Luckily, so far it seems nothing from our universe has worked quite right when he brought it back. However, his fascination with some old Colt pistol he picked up is nothing short of amazing. I swear, the man shows up, treats me like I'm nothing but an encyclopedia for him. Then, he swears at me to "get the naed out of ma ears and use the googles and the yahoos witchery for him". Lord help me, the last time he was hear, he discovered that you could look up porn on the web. I didn't think he was ever leaving...... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 21:28:30
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@Wooly - I am not saying Shar is the best villain of all the deities, I was just stating how she is better then Cyric, IMHO.
I do, however, think Shar has the most potential. I don't think she has really been used all that well since the outset of 3e and the introduction of the Shadoweave. I liked her in 1e/2e, but really grew to hate her over 3e (and not in a good way). Hopefully Ed & Co. will be able to tone it down and present it all as something that 'got away from her'. I get the idea that her faithful began to operate too overtly, which wasn't her intention. She should be the 'big bad', but everyone shouldn't know about it.
In fact, a lot of what she gets blamed for may have just been stupid followers 'bragging' about stuff she did and didn't do, and whether she was responsible or not, they should have just kept their mouths shut (because a plan your enemies know about is a plan they can thwart). I think she is in need of some major 'house cleaning' going into 5e (if they haven't done that already in 4e... I wouldn't know).
LOL - I guess her downfall will be 'monologing villains' (amongst her worshipers).
For us to see her true potential again, she needs to be placed back into the shadows. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2012 21:29:41 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 11:37:11
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| The "big bad" is not Shar Markus, heed Ed Greenwoods words, it is Bane! |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 14:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - I am not saying Shar is the best villain of all the deities, I was just stating how she is better then Cyric, IMHO.
I do, however, think Shar has the most potential. I don't think she has really been used all that well since the outset of 3e and the introduction of the Shadoweave. I liked her in 1e/2e, but really grew to hate her over 3e (and not in a good way). Hopefully Ed & Co. will be able to tone it down and present it all as something that 'got away from her'. I get the idea that her faithful began to operate too overtly, which wasn't her intention. She should be the 'big bad', but everyone shouldn't know about it.
In fact, a lot of what she gets blamed for may have just been stupid followers 'bragging' about stuff she did and didn't do, and whether she was responsible or not, they should have just kept their mouths shut (because a plan your enemies know about is a plan they can thwart). I think she is in need of some major 'house cleaning' going into 5e (if they haven't done that already in 4e... I wouldn't know).
LOL - I guess her downfall will be 'monologing villains' (amongst her worshipers).
For us to see her true potential again, she needs to be placed back into the shadows.
Well, just about anyone is better than Cyric... I just want to see some other bad guys. Ed created many, many power groups, and a lot of them have goals that benefit no one other than themselves. I want to see that again, in the Realms, as opposed to the current model where all evil flows from Shar. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 14:43:08
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Well, yeah, but I was speaking specifically about gods. No one group (or deity) should ever be focused on - there are just way too many. Ed could probably fill a dozen sourcebooks with ones we've never heard of, including some as powerful (but far more secretive) then the ones we DO know about.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
The "big bad" is not Shar Markus, heed Ed Greenwoods words, it is Bane!
For me, Bane is just a Gruumsh wanna-be. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 15:06:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For me, Bane is just a Gruumsh wanna-be.
*poke of death!* |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 03:58:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - I am not saying Shar is the best villain of all the deities, I was just stating how she is better then Cyric, IMHO.
I do, however, think Shar has the most potential. I don't think she has really been used all that well since the outset of 3e and the introduction of the Shadoweave. I liked her in 1e/2e, but really grew to hate her over 3e (and not in a good way). Hopefully Ed & Co. will be able to tone it down and present it all as something that 'got away from her'. I get the idea that her faithful began to operate too overtly, which wasn't her intention. She should be the 'big bad', but everyone shouldn't know about it.
In fact, a lot of what she gets blamed for may have just been stupid followers 'bragging' about stuff she did and didn't do, and whether she was responsible or not, they should have just kept their mouths shut (because a plan your enemies know about is a plan they can thwart). I think she is in need of some major 'house cleaning' going into 5e (if they haven't done that already in 4e... I wouldn't know).
LOL - I guess her downfall will be 'monologing villains' (amongst her worshipers).
For us to see her true potential again, she needs to be placed back into the shadows.
Well, just about anyone is better than Cyric... I just want to see some other bad guys. Ed created many, many power groups, and a lot of them have goals that benefit no one other than themselves. I want to see that again, in the Realms, as opposed to the current model where all evil flows from Shar.
Haha, I wouldn't mind seeing that! But Ed has enough work to do already, I'm sure. I think Shar is better than Cyric too, though I don't like either of them--I love to hate them lol. But Shar should be working in the shadows, since that it her forte! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 06:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Haha, I wouldn't mind seeing that! But Ed has enough work to do already, I'm sure. I think Shar is better than Cyric too, though I don't like either of them--I love to hate them lol. But Shar should be working in the shadows, since that it her forte!
Ed doesn't have to do more work -- we've already got a lot of these groups detailed in extant Realmslore. Flip thru Cloak & Dagger for some good examples.
Many of these groups have never had any time in the sun. And despite this, 3E introduced a new evil group, pulled a deity out of the shadows to be the focus of everything, and then forgot that any prior groups existed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 04:01:14
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| That's what I said: he has enough work. I wasn't implying he should do more. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 04:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, yeah, but I was speaking specifically about gods. No one group (or deity) should ever be focused on - there are just way too many. Ed could probably fill a dozen sourcebooks with ones we've never heard of, including some as powerful (but far more secretive) then the ones we DO know about.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
The "big bad" is not Shar Markus, heed Ed Greenwoods words, it is Bane!
For me, Bane is just a Gruumsh wanna-be.
As a Gruumsh fan, I take exception to that. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 07:24:18
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| Gruumsh is weak |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 07:50:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
Gruumsh is weak
Tell that to Re. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 18:07:57
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Gruumsh has battled and killed other deities, leads his own pantheon, has many aliases - some worshiped by humans and others - and if that article in Dragon wasn't just 'legend', he is also Corellon's brother (and equal) making him extremely powerful and one of THE most ancient D&D gods.
Gruumsh isn't weak - he is just under-utilized. We are talking about a power that has very large populations of worshipers on nearly every D&D world - he is iconic, multi-spheric, and an archtype.
I also have strong suspicions that Bane is his offspring (because Bane looks lie a half-orc). At least one other of the 'Dark Three' came out of Murghom, which happens to be very close to where all the battles of the Orcgate wars were fought. Perhaps he stopped somewhere for a little 'R&R'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Oct 2012 18:10:42 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 20:59:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Gruumsh has battled and killed other deities, leads his own pantheon, has many aliases - some worshiped by humans and others - and if that article in Dragon wasn't just 'legend', he is also Corellon's brother (and equal) making him extremely powerful and one of THE most ancient D&D gods.
Gruumsh isn't weak - he is just under-utilized. We are talking about a power that has very large populations of worshipers on nearly every D&D world - he is iconic, multi-spheric, and an archtype.
I also have strong suspicions that Bane is his offspring (because Bane looks lie a half-orc). At least one other of the 'Dark Three' came out of Murghom, which happens to be very close to where all the battles of the Orcgate wars were fought. Perhaps he stopped somewhere for a little 'R&R'.
Yeah, whoever came up with that idea that Gruumsh is a brother of Corellon is a wearer of a mirror mask (if you catch my drift). That just smells like cheese. I'd prefer my orc pantheon and my fey/elf/seldarine pantheon to have nothing in common but hate. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 22:38:13
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Actually, I came up with that a long time ago (but I certainly didn't write that article).
In folklore, 'goblins' (which includes all the goblinoids, orcs, and even some of the smaller giantish species) are the Unseelie version of Elves. Neither is 'good' as humans define it, but rather Seelie fey (the creatures D&D normally refers to as 'fey') are simply not as mean and destructive. Both groups live their lives as hedonists, but the Unseelie (our goblins) don't care who they hurt in the process.
So its not so much 'cheese', as D&D returning to its folklore roots. Its also not the same thing that Tolkien did - his Orcs & goblins were devolved, specially-bred off-shoots of elves. The true (folklore versions) were both branches of a single race - one in which one's outward appearance reflected one's inner spirit. It was more a matter of choice then birth. For instance, the only difference between gnomes and redcaps is that redcaps were nasty little bast... buggers.
In the myths, normally 'solitary' fairies were thought of as the bad (Unseelie) ones, and trooping (social) fairies as 'Seelie', or 'good', but exceptions exist in both courts. Seelie =/= good, nor does Unseelie = bad, although it usually does work out that way (from a mortal PoV) because of their predispositions. Both groups are really neutral in regards to good and evil - for them its more of a law vs chaos thing.
Just like you can have evil elves and good drow, their should be examples of both on the other side of the fence - I cite the Ondonti (fey) Orcs as an example. You step into Orc lands and you get filled full of arrows. You step into wild (wood) elf lands and you get filled full of arrows. Whats the difference, Elves are 'cute'? Is it Hubris? Obould could have given any Gold elf a run for its money in that dept.
Nope, same critters as far as I'm concerned... the Elves just have everyone fooled (ask the Jhaamdathans, or the the folks of Chondath, or Miyeritar, etc, etc). You want to know what to call an honest elf? A drow. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Oct 2012 23:45:47 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 22:59:12
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quote:
Yeah, whoever came up with that idea that Gruumsh is a brother of Corellon is a wearer of a mirror mask (if you catch my drift). That just smells like cheese. I'd prefer my orc pantheon and my fey/elf/seldarine pantheon to have nothing in common but hate.
Aye, couldn't have said it better myself (but I missed your drift-- whats a mirror mask?). I don't think fey are that broad a category to allow goblinoid or orcoid races to be included.
____
I like Cyric. His clergy is so fun to roleplay because of the heated reactions of players have them instantly immersed. As his worshippers and clergy are mostly composed of the young, I see his religion as a divine rebelious movement. The many 'gangs' (as most travelling clerics to Cyric organize themselves rarely above the local scale) are a multifaceted source for 'innovative methods of worship', and constant surprizes for both their targets and allies. Cyric has taken over a lot of temples and even remote shrines to other Gods he subsumed, so his temples hold ancient holy sites to former dieties and some might hoard artifects of Bhaal, Myrkul or Leira. So, invading a temple of an assassins brotherhood of Cyric can be seriously scary and awesome to run but with awesome rewards for both DM and the players.
Shar too is a totally insidious diety I love in the Realms. Her portfolios alone are scary enough to carry her weight, but she holds extra gravitas because of the creation tales of Toril. But having her being a tad more engaged in a struggle with Selune would be preferred. We hardly get to see her clergies strategies against Shars darkness.
EDIT: needed a quote because of MT post |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 22 Oct 2012 23:09:41 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 23:42:46
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hehehe
any of my elven characters would tell you that its all one sided propaganda and that over the years most of it became true.....
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 23:44:48
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Elf-lovers would feel that way. Don't worry - the orcs feel the same way. 
The simple fact is, in old folklore, the words 'elf' and 'goblin' were synonymous. So was gnome and kobold.
The various names grew out of specific behavior patterns, not appearances. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Oct 2012 23:46:21 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 23:51:25
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an my drow ones would just give you the evil eye and tell you its nothing but buiness and then ask you if you wanted to buy something and charge you double for bringing up ancient history with them......
hehe what would one expect from a merchant..... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 00:02:46
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I didn't mean to start a whole thing with my "Did Shar inspire Karsus?" concept. Indeed, my version of "inspiration" in this case would be presented by something like this: "Some sages speculate that, working in the shadows as is her wont, Shar has had a hand in all of the great cataclysms of Toril. In his hubris to research a spell doomed to failure and ruin, Karsus indulged in a thanatos-like urge (which is the province of the Goddess of Darkness), and by bringing down the Empire of Netheril, he honored the power of entropy. Only in recent centuries have Shar's schemes begun to leave a more visible shadow, as her followers have at last grown numerous and powerful enough to attempt an ascension to power in the world."
The corollary of this is that perhaps Shar will recede once more after the Sundering (or at some point in the future), her schemes thwarted, her most powerful servitors thrown down from power. The last century was just the new moon phase of the lunar cycle between Selune and Shar, and they are destined to come back into something like balance again. I'd like to see that, actually. 
Also, re: Gruumsh: Ah, if only some day I write that novel about the Kingdom of Many-Arrows, you'll see how much of a poof Gruumsh isn't. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 00:29:53
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On the Gruumsh/Corellon thing, it's actually one of the ideas 4e presented that I wasn't completely sold on at first. Felt like they were trying to hard to evoke that Bahamut/Tiamat vibe, not to mention too many of the sidebars and articles that pushed it were playing obvious favorites towards Corellon, but like Mark said, elve's have everyone fooled.
I used to think that Corellon was just another in a long line of deities that Gruumsh has crossed, but ultimately the Cain and Abel story won me over. There is no greater hatred than that between brothers divided.
Of course, I was coming at this from the opposite end; I prefer to think of Gruumsh and Corellon as just two members of a universal pantheon(I am not a fan of racial pantheons at all).
quote:
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I like Cyric. His clergy is so fun to roleplay because of the heated reactions of players have them instantly immersed. As his worshippers and clergy are mostly composed of the young, I see his religion as a divine rebelious movement. The many 'gangs' (as most travelling clerics to Cyric organize themselves rarely above the local scale) are a multifaceted source for 'innovative methods of worship', and constant surprizes for both their targets and allies. Cyric has taken over a lot of temples and even remote shrines to other Gods he subsumed, so his temples hold ancient holy sites to former dieties and some might hoard artifects of Bhaal, Myrkul or Leira. So, invading a temple of an assassins brotherhood of Cyric can be seriously scary and awesome to run but with awesome rewards for both DM and the players.
Shar too is a totally insidious diety I love in the Realms. Her portfolios alone are scary enough to carry her weight, but she holds extra gravitas because of the creation tales of Toril. But having her being a tad more engaged in a struggle with Selune would be preferred. We hardly get to see her clergies strategies against Shars darkness.
EDIT: needed a quote because of MT post
You know, as much as I dislike Cyric as a character, and I do(though not nearly as much as I dislike Midnight or Kelemvor), I do think he has a place in the realms and enjoy using his faithful as villains.
I recall one game I was running, something completely unrelated to my usual fair, where the party stopped at an inn for the night. While they enjoyed their meal, a group of cyricist came in to buy a room- one of the members of the party- which at this moment consisted of a drow sorceress in disguise, a human bard, and a talking rock(who, granted, was a Netheril mage trapped in the form of a rock)- decided it would be a good idea to start a fight with them.
So she "attacks", throwing the rock at the leader- one of his men catches it- and casting a cantrip on the lot them to turn their skin into blue fur while the rock cast a minor shock spell to take out the cyricist who caught it.
Before the other four cyricists could attack and slaughter the group- and I made it clear in no uncertain terms that they could do just that- the head cyricist calls for them to hold, calls the innkeep over, and explains that he and his men were attacked without provocation, and demanded for the party to be thrown out of the inn, of course with the full intention of tracking them down and murdering them in a back ally later that night.
Sadly that was the last session with that group; one player had to quit because of a new kid and another had to move cross country, so it all just fell apart.
Anyway, where was I? Oh, right, cyricist. They can certainly provoke a reaction |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 00:37:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Anyway, where was I? Oh, right, cyricist. They can certainly provoke a reaction
You think that provoked a reaction? You should see how a party reacts to a naked Cyricist standing in a fountain of blood, waving his longsword at the adventurers. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 03:47:18
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As interesting as the article on Corellon and Gruumsh being brothers was, I think it was a 4e move, and I don't think it applied to the Realms as much as it did core D&D or some other branch. If it it DOES apply to the Realms, then that is a big chunk of lore we were never aware of until 4e.
I'm sure I'm going to get disagreements on this, but that's my stance. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 04:22:25
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While the article in question was written from a 4e core perspective, I think it's easily enough applied to the Realms, just substitute Ioun with Oghma and you're golden.
It shouldn't be surprising, really, because neither Gruumsh or Corellon are realms exclusive deities, and with Gruumsh especially, the bulk of information about him has always been core setting instead of Realms specific. With the 4e design philosophy I can see why they wouldn't want to rewrite the article to apply to the Realms just to change a couple names.
Gruumsh and Corellon extend beyond Toril, so what's written about them doesn't necessarily need to be written in a realms article unless it deals directly with their worshipers or an otherwise realms specific aspect. For instance, an article dealing with Corellon's influence over Myth Drannor or his relationship with Eilistraee would need to be realms specific, but an article dealing with Corellon's philosphies, personality, or dogma, or an article dealing with his relationship with other setting spanning deities such as Gruumsh, Moradin, or Bahamut, doesn't need to be such because you can take that information and apply it to any setting.
And it is one of those things where it makes sense we wouldn't have heard about it as the article mentions several times that both the races from which myths regarding these two come from, elves and orcs, regard it as insulting heresy. It's certainly not a common knowledge sort of thing. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 04:35:42
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| Mmmm...that's true I suppose... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 11:18:05
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The key thing about applying core lore to a setting is that it is an individual gaming groups choice, not a mandate from WotC.
One of the major criticism of 4e FR is the fact that it often blindly ports core lore into the setting without dressing it up at all. If that is indeed non-realms specific lore, then it should be an option not an assumption that it works that way in Realms. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 11:40:53
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| Its a criticism I'm aware of just not one I agree with, at least not completely. I think that for the most part planar material should be similar enough that DMs can do the dressing up as they will. In this case specifically I feel that even including a side bar for the Corellon and Gruumsh article regarding applying the information to the Realms would have been so basic and obvious as to be insulting to our intelligence. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 15:31:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
The key thing about applying core lore to a setting is that it is an individual gaming groups choice, not a mandate from WotC.
One of the major criticism of 4e FR is the fact that it often blindly ports core lore into the setting without dressing it up at all. If that is indeed non-realms specific lore, then it should be an option not an assumption that it works that way in Realms.
AFAIK, the Corellon/Gruumsh connection is intended to be core lore, not FR, but at your individual table, you can certainly apply it.
I consider it to be a apocryphal story (i.e. something that "could be the case but doesn't have wide acceptance) and a piece of speculation from sages. Until we see it confirmed as true in a Realms sourcebook or novel (and that would be a big deal, probably in a novel specifically dealing with elves and orcs), we should take the concept of Corellon and Gruumsh being brothers with a considerably large grain of salt.
I myself prefer the Corellon and Gruumsh as rivals for Araushnee's affections story myself.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
