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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 10:51:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
That makes sense. It is canon that the Shadow Weave was created by Shar upon the birth of Mystra.
I am not aware of any canon references that put an exact date on the creation of the Shadow Weave. Where is this stated? |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 12:09:32
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| I do not think there are any canon references claiming that the shadow weave is as old as that, but the oldest product I remember mentioning different kinds of shadow magic was 2 of the harper novels were it was unique magic to manipulate shadows and the old "the shadow stone book" there originally seem to have been written for Birthright but was then converted to be released as a realms novel. That book, did operate with a stone there could corrupt a persons soul and use of magic to a darker form |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 13:32:20
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| There's enough misleading evidence in either direction (if there is an "either" direction and not about 15 different directions) as to what Mystra/Mystryl's role was regarding "magic" and her stewardship. I think the best thing to do is to define "her" role going forward, which is what Ao will be re-writing with the new tablets of fate. Let's take some of the other gods as examples (noting on the examples I'm giving, I'm only focusing on their aspect to magic). Azuth is undoubtedly the "god of wizards" and some would say he would accept sorcerors and warmages too.... but I'd prefer it if he were the god of "magic through research" and therefore he could also be a god to artificers. Savras is undoubtedly the "god of divinations" no matter which class is performing the divination. Velsharoon is undoubtedly the "the god of necromantic magic" no matter which class is wielding it (wizard, sorceror, cleric, dread necromancer, necrocarnate, etc..) . Milil and Oghma would be the gods of "bard magic". Leira would be the "goddess of illusion magic" no matter which class is wielding it (wizard, sorceror, beguiler, cleric, etc..). Deneir could be a god of "magic symbology and interpretation" and thereby attract wizards and artificers and those bards who focus on things like poetry/acting rather than music. Mystra should become the goddes of "the mysteries that are magic" and thereby for those individuals not wanting to focus on an aspect of their love of magic, but rather the magic itself, no matter what the source. She shouldn't be controlling the weave and denying access to the weave.... at least not in its entirety. She may be there to act as a control though to prevent the other gods from raiding the cupboard overmuch however. (i.e. she gives them a warning privately, then perhaps she sends out a notice to the other gods of improper use of the weave that needs to be policed <which may result in those gods issuing kill orders through their clergy>, then if none of that works she informs Ao). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 13:49:04
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There's enough misleading evidence in either direction (if there is an "either" direction and not about 15 different directions) as to what Mystra/Mystryl's role was regarding "magic" and her stewardship. I think the best thing to do is to define "her" role going forward, which is what Ao will be re-writing with the new tablets of fate. Let's take some of the other gods as examples (noting on the examples I'm giving, I'm only focusing on their aspect to magic). Azuth is undoubtedly the "god of wizards" and some would say he would accept sorcerors and warmages too.... but I'd prefer it if he were the god of "magic through research" and therefore he could also be a god to artificers. Savras is undoubtedly the "god of divinations" no matter which class is performing the divination. Velsharoon is undoubtedly the "the god of necromantic magic" no matter which class is wielding it (wizard, sorceror, cleric, dread necromancer, necrocarnate, etc..) . Milil and Oghma would be the gods of "bard magic". Leira would be the "goddess of illusion magic" no matter which class is wielding it (wizard, sorceror, beguiler, cleric, etc..). Deneir could be a god of "magic symbology and interpretation" and thereby attract wizards and artificers and those bards who focus on things like poetry/acting rather than music. Mystra should become the goddes of "the mysteries that are magic" and thereby for those individuals not wanting to focus on an aspect of their love of magic, but rather the magic itself, no matter what the source. She shouldn't be controlling the weave and denying access to the weave.... at least not in its entirety. She may be there to act as a control though to prevent the other gods from raiding the cupboard overmuch however. (i.e. she gives them a warning privately, then perhaps she sends out a notice to the other gods of improper use of the weave that needs to be policed <which may result in those gods issuing kill orders through their clergy>, then if none of that works she informs Ao).
On the above, I would stress here... the worst thing we could try to do is to try and map out exactly HOW the weave works as pertains to the gods (now how it works to mortals... that's worth looking at). In fact, I'd stress, even the gods (beyond Mystra... and even she may have difficulties) may only understand their means of linking and pulling from "the weave".
As pertains to her making magic easier to wield by wizards, this could be a combined thing to all these various gods. Maybe Leira makes a "spell construct/paradigm" that makes accessing "improved invisibility" an easier thing to form from raw magic. This "spell construct/paradigm" is then made a portion of the weave and available to certain "types" of casters... perhaps after Mystra reviews the "spell construct/paradigm" for inconsistencies and flaws. Afterward, Leira and/or Mystra could offer to make changes to the "spell construct/paradigm". Maybe initially they only make it available wizards. However, later, Mystra or another deity wants to start offering this access to psionicists, shadowmages or binders (maybe with modifications that are class specific). Note binders and warlocks make for another interesting piece of all this, as the vestiges and/or patrons are not deities, but perhaps these beings have learned how to "unlock" certain of these "spell constructs/paradigms" to allow them to be used by those who call upon them for power. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 13:59:26
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Finally, on the above, it might be that OTHER deities come along later and state that X spell construct is overpowered. They bring this up to Mystra. Said deity, Mystra, and the originator of said spell construct then agree upon what changes need to be made and suddenly.... "poof" spellcasters everywhere discover their spell has changed.
The one thing to note here is that spellcasters who have totally bypassed the weave and aren't going to another source for their magic.... their spell wouldn't be changed. However, I'd recommend that rules be made that such casting is like epic spellcasting (its expensive, takes way too long, etc.....) and that even during the time of the spellplague people weren't "directly" accessing magic (yet, that would be a retcon... it wouldn't affect gameplay, but it would be a retcon.... but an easy one to cover that noone truly understands magic). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 15:25:07
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Our view of the Realms is indeed based on hearsay obtained from Elminster. He was the original source of lore about the realms, when he visited Ed for the first time. He isn't the muse for all of us, but the realms wouldn't exist in our imagination if he hasn't shown up that day and opened Ed's eyes to a vibrant other world. As such, we don't have objective truth but instead unreliable narration.
It's kinda like saying English theatre is based on Shakespeare.
My work is based on hearsay as well, though not from Elminster. Mine comes from a certain elf shadowdancer who often wakes me up in the middle of the night to tell me fantastic stories of a world far from our own. Do I trust everything she says 100%? Not remotely, but they make for awesome stories.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 16:23:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
That makes sense. It is canon that the Shadow Weave was created by Shar upon the birth of Mystra.
I am not aware of any canon references that put an exact date on the creation of the Shadow Weave. Where is this stated?
Nor do I. However, the quote from me above is canon, from the reference I cite, above |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 18:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
That makes sense. It is canon that the Shadow Weave was created by Shar upon the birth of Mystra.
I am not aware of any canon references that put an exact date on the creation of the Shadow Weave. Where is this stated?
Nor do I. However, the quote from me above is canon, from the reference I cite, above
I really want to know exactly where that info came from. I've just looked at the FRCS and Magic of Faerūn, and neither says that the Shadow Weave was created upon Mystra's birth. The FRCS, in fact, says Shar created it in response to Selūne's creation of Mystra and the Weave. This obviously should be referring to Mystryl, not Mystra, but that aside, nothing connects the creation of the Shadow Weave to any specific date. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Oct 2012 18:15:20 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 19:01:35
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First off, I want to thank The Hidden Lord for addressing all my points in a completely non-confrontational tone (I am being sincere here). Thats not an easy thing to pull-off when you do one of those line-by-line quote things. Kudos.
Second, you made all excellent points, and I can't argue with any of them. I think once again, its all a matter of how we are interpreting what we are reading, or even how we are putting those thoughts into words here.
The Weave has two halves (whether split or not) because it is a combination of Selune's power and Shar's power. I concur that we don't know if the energies involved were the same, or of the Arcane/Umbral variety (one assumes they are, but it is not necessarily so - I addressed that in another thread, and it was a valid point). So Mystryl (if indeed she is the embodiment of the Weave itself) was composed of HALF Selune-power, and HALF Shar-power, making one, whole Mystryl. Troy Denning's explanation says that the 'goddess of magic' somehow lost control of that portion of her power that was once Shar's, and its a damn good explanation for where the Shadoweave came from.
Conjecture:
The Shadoweave isn't really its own thing - its just the that half of Shar that belonged to Shar all along (so it is both half, and whole at the same time - its own thing, and part of something more). In that respect, it can be both, since Mystryl herself was actually a composite being. I think that maybe thats where the confusion comes in (on the parts of characters in the RotAW series) - Mystryl was never 'one thing' herself. She was a binary entity. You can mix water and oil if you beat the two together long enough, but if left to sit it eventually separates again and the oil rises to the top. Maybe something like that happened - the two 'halves' I am talking about are actually 'whole' things unto themselves, which combined to make something composed of two things. This is more akin to what they did with Yondalla (and Dallah Thaun) in Races of the Wild, or one of those tri-patriate deities (because she also required a human/mortal component).
So Mystryl was like Chocolate Milk. You could say that Milk was one half of her, and chocolate the other*, but in reality both were separate things that were combined to make something new. I think Shar just wanted her chocolate back (and was somehow still magaing to subtley control it).
See, that's where it all breaks down - why hasn't Selune become as involved in all of this as Shar? Why is it Mystra vs Shar, instead of Selune vs Shar? Thats a major point of contention for me. If the Shadoweave is one half of The Weave, then shouldn't Selune have a name for her half, or be trying to exert some control over it, as Shar is doing? Is Selune just a lazy god?
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
I don't understand why it would be idiotic to reclaim a "symbol of" Shars "control over the Shadow Weave", (The Sorceror pg 126) but you are free to believe it so.
Also, there is no indication that it was Shar who seized the Karsestone, although Khelben, Laeral, Malik and others believed it so.
(I think it was actually Mystra, but the whole thing is left ambiguous.)
That last part is something we definitely agree on - the 'wink' was WAY out of character for Shar. Still, whatever that was, it seemed rather important to everyone involved.
*I realize chocolate isn't "one half" of chocolate milk, but for the sake of argument - and this analogy - lets assume it is. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Oct 2012 19:07:36 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 19:02:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
That makes sense. It is canon that the Shadow Weave was created by Shar upon the birth of Mystra.
I am not aware of any canon references that put an exact date on the creation of the Shadow Weave. Where is this stated?
Nor do I. However, the quote from me above is canon, from the reference I cite, above
I really want to know exactly where that info came from. I've just looked at the FRCS and Magic of Faerūn, and neither says that the Shadow Weave was created upon Mystra's birth. The FRCS, in fact, says Shar created it in response to Selūne's creation of Mystra and the Weave. This obviously should be referring to Mystryl, not Mystra, but that aside, nothing connects the creation of the Shadow Weave to any specific date.
You've got it. However, (in fact) FRCS actually says, "Shar created the Shadow Weave in response to Selune's creation of Mystra and the birth of the Weave."
I offer my most humble apologies for having conflated the canon reference... unless you think Mystra and the Weave are 'one'?
If the text is written in English, and I believe strongly that it is, then Shar's creation is in response to these two things.
Also, FRCS goes on to say, in the following paragraph, that the creation of the Shadow Weave predates Karsus' Folly.
You are correct that no date is given, but I most respectfully assert that it is clear that the creation of the Shadow Weave predates Karsus' Folly. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 19:10:27
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Not if you read it verbatim.
Mystra was created when Karsus fell. If anything, that supports what I was saying (based on what Troy Denning wrote).
You and Wooly are both assuming that is a typo.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Oct 2012 19:11:02 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 19:20:34
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I agree that just because it's "in response" to Selune's actions doesn't mean it's coterminous. The response could certainly have been delayed.
Also, to answer MT, it sort of *is* Selune against Shar--it's just Selune acting through her (dare I say "their") daughter, Mystryl/Mystra.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 19:38:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not if you read it verbatim.
Mystra was created when Karsus fell. If anything, that supports what I was saying (based on what Troy Denning wrote).
You and Wooly are both assuming that is a typo.
I most respectfully offer that you are assuming the multi-millennial life of the Shadow Weave is a typo? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 19:47:20
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"God is mad at humanity because of Eve's shenanigans and the death of his son."
Now just about everyone here reading that will know what I am talking about, but someone from another world might interpret that as a singular event. The simple fact remains that the they are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS, which could be separated by thousands (tens of thousands?) of years of time.
I see nothing to indicate there was no time span between the two events. I read that and I see Shar getting mad at one, and considering the second "the last straw". It was her sister after all, and she let things slide for a 50+ thousand years, but everyone has their breaking point. Poor Shar - she just couldn't take that last insult. She thought Mystryls death (at Karsus' hands, and engineered by Shar BTW) would be the end of it, and she'd finally get her power back. I would have reacted the same way.
I am reading the canon as written. No typo there as far as I am concerned. You may interpret it any way you wish.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 20:56:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not if you read it verbatim.
Mystra was created when Karsus fell. If anything, that supports what I was saying (based on what Troy Denning wrote).
You and Wooly are both assuming that is a typo.
I assume it was a typo because the Weave was not created when Karsus cast his spell and Mystryl reacted, and also because Selūne did not create Mystra. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 20:57:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
That makes sense. It is canon that the Shadow Weave was created by Shar upon the birth of Mystra.
I am not aware of any canon references that put an exact date on the creation of the Shadow Weave. Where is this stated?
Nor do I. However, the quote from me above is canon, from the reference I cite, above
I really want to know exactly where that info came from. I've just looked at the FRCS and Magic of Faerūn, and neither says that the Shadow Weave was created upon Mystra's birth. The FRCS, in fact, says Shar created it in response to Selūne's creation of Mystra and the Weave. This obviously should be referring to Mystryl, not Mystra, but that aside, nothing connects the creation of the Shadow Weave to any specific date.
You've got it. However, (in fact) FRCS actually says, "Shar created the Shadow Weave in response to Selune's creation of Mystra and the birth of the Weave."
I offer my most humble apologies for having conflated the canon reference... unless you think Mystra and the Weave are 'one'?
If the text is written in English, and I believe strongly that it is, then Shar's creation is in response to these two things.
Also, FRCS goes on to say, in the following paragraph, that the creation of the Shadow Weave predates Karsus' Folly.
You are correct that no date is given, but I most respectfully assert that it is clear that the creation of the Shadow Weave predates Karsus' Folly.
I wasn't arguing that. I was arguing the point that -- as I was reading your post -- Mystra and the Shadow Weave popped into existence at the same time.
Apologies if I was misinterpreting your post. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 21:45:16
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I wonder if Shar played a role in influencing Karsus to cast his spell. I don't think we've ever read it spelled out, but Shar could have had a hand in inspiring Karsus to move against Mystryl and kept it quiet.
Thoughts?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 22:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if Shar played a role in influencing Karsus to cast his spell. I don't think we've ever read it spelled out, but Shar could have had a hand in inspiring Karsus to move against Mystryl and kept it quiet.
Thoughts?
Cheers
I don't like it. I prefer Karsus to be a random wacko, as opposed to yet again putting Shar behind an evil plot.
Besides which, he could have targeted Shar or any other deity, just as easily. He was going for power, and Mystryl wasn't the only one with power to offer. He likely would have succeeded had he targeted someone else, too. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Oct 2012 22:34:23 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 22:56:39
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Well, it make sense that shars netheril enclave survived since shar would have known there were a need for the enclave to evacuate to another plane if she was behing karsus folly
Selunes enclave might then have survived since she might have obtained a slight warning through her mother connection to the weave / mystra that it was about to be temporarily sacrificed |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4253 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 22:59:42
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| It was my thought these enclaves were simply absent from Faerun at the time and so survived... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 00:02:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if Shar played a role in influencing Karsus to cast his spell. I don't think we've ever read it spelled out, but Shar could have had a hand in inspiring Karsus to move against Mystryl and kept it quiet.
Thoughts?
Cheers
I don't like it. I prefer Karsus to be a random wacko, as opposed to yet again putting Shar behind an evil plot.
Besides which, he could have targeted Shar or any other deity, just as easily. He was going for power, and Mystryl wasn't the only one with power to offer. He likely would have succeeded had he targeted someone else, too.
I'd like to think that he would have failed regardless of his choice of deity- except, maybe, with demipowers. I think the potential fallout of his failure would have been far less than it would have been with Mystryl, but I like to interpret the story as man's reach exceeding his grasp in his hubris, rather than another demonstration of how powerful and important Mystryl/a is. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 09:26:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if Shar played a role in influencing Karsus to cast his spell. I don't think we've ever read it spelled out, but Shar could have had a hand in inspiring Karsus to move against Mystryl and kept it quiet.
Thoughts?
Cheers
I've always assumed that the Mad Power Grab of Karsus took Shar by surprise just as much as it did Mystryl. Though, this does bring up the kinds of question Dennis and I debated some time ago about what both the other deities and Ao him/her/itself really knew about the ambition of Karsus.
If Shar did in fact have a hand in prompting Karsus, then I suspect Ao would've known as well. Which then raises questions about why Ao didn't do anything to prevent Shar from causing such a catastrophic failure of the Weave. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 11:00:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
It was my thought these enclaves were simply absent from Faerun at the time and so survived...
Shade was, though the timing of when it left is in question -- we've had descriptions of the enclave leaving the day before, earlier in the day of Karsus's oops, and coincidently leaving at the same time. I prefer them having left the day before, myself.
Selūne grabbed Opus on the way down. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 14:58:16
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| A would NOT have cared long as she was acting within her portfolio at the time |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 16:33:33
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If I had Shar prompting Karsus, it'd be pretty subtle. There's a certain amount of jealousy in Karsus's actions, and that I definitely associate with Shar. She might have played a role in inspiring him on that level. Or it could be entirely his own hubris. Either way, it's more or less impossible to prove.
It just stands to reason if Shar has been waging a war against Mystryl/Mystra for a long time. I like the idea of Shar incepting a dark spark of jealousy and corruption in Netheril.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 17:12:02
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This was discussed at length on the WotC boards awhile back, not long after the triple 'mega-module' thing came out. It was either firmly stated, or at least strongly hinted at that Shar manipulated Karsus in his decision-making.
I have no way of checking that now - I don't have those modules anymore.
That factoid (or psuedo-factoid if only hinted at), coupled with where the Black Chronology starts (the ascendance of Cyric) indicates to me that Shar orchestrated both of the Goddess of Magic's falls (and perhaps more we are still unaware of). It would appear to me (as in, my own assumption) that Shar has been using prophesy for a very long time to steer events down paths agreeable to her own plans.
When Shar lost half her power in the battle with Selune, she did not just 'roll over and play dead'. That isn't her style. She has been trying to regain control of her half of the Weave since the very beginning. That much is clear. I doubt what facts we know about her plans are even the tip of the iceberg - if so much is overt, can you imagine how much a deity of secrets keeps hidden? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2012 17:14:31 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 17:29:39
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| Who is more evil: Cyric or Shar, and who makes a better villian? This may be a topic for a different thread, but whatever lol |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 17:36:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If I had Shar prompting Karsus, it'd be pretty subtle. There's a certain amount of jealousy in Karsus's actions, and that I definitely associate with Shar. She might have played a role in inspiring him on that level. Or it could be entirely his own hubris. Either way, it's more or less impossible to prove.
It just stands to reason if Shar has been waging a war against Mystryl/Mystra for a long time. I like the idea of Shar incepting a dark spark of jealousy and corruption in Netheril.
Cheers
I don't like the idea of Shar influencing Karsus. At least, not with the end-goal of affecting Mystra. Before 3E, Shar wasn't even paying attention to Mystra -- she was focused on her battles with Selūne. Faiths & Avatars doesn't even mention Mystra in Shar's write-up. She's certainly not listed as a foe.
With Shar's ultimate goal being the destruction of everything, I can see her opposing Mystra, but only as a means to an end. It certainly wouldn't be an end-goal in and of itself.
That's a lot of why I have issues with the whole Shar-Mystra conflict that was so central to 3E. It was a retcon, and it began to feel like all evil in the Realms was connected to Shar, either directly or indirectly. And the 4E version of the setting wasn't much better, in that particular regard...
We've gone from having Mystra and her servants being the ubiquitous paragons of Good to Shar and her servants being the ubiquitous paragons of Evil.* This isn't an edition-rant -- it's a complaint about the fact that the Realms is not a setting for ubiquitous paragons of anything, but that's what we keep getting.
So I don't like the idea of Shar influencing Karsus. Maybe stirring up general issues in Netheril, but for something on the scale of Karsus and his Ultimate Folly, I should prefer not to have yet another place where Shar is behind the badness. Let him just be a random madman... If you have to put deific influence into it, for the love of Lurue, pick someone other than Shar. 
Apologies, I'm just really sick of the amount of airtime given to Shar and her servants. 
*Note: that's not how I see Mystra and her Chosen, but that's an oft-cited complaint. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Oct 2012 17:39:11 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 17:40:21
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Shar is the better villain, because she is covert. Cyric is too overt.
Its like the difference between Dr.Doom (or Loki) and The Abomination (or The Lizard). Despite his much-acclaimed chaotic behavior, you can pretty-much figure out what he'd do in any given situation. His insanity makes him predictable.
Shar is subtle. The 'wheels within wheels' Machivellian style of manipulations is better in-keeping to how the Realms in-general works. Nothing is ever as it seems. Cyric is just too "in your face" evil - not the best fit for FR.
EDIT: I just had an odd thought; I don't really like Cyric (thats putting it mildly), but I think I would like him as an archfiend - a demon prince or some-such. We've had cases of deities being 'down-graded' to demon Lords before - I think I might like him in that role - almost like a demonic version of Asmodeus. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2012 17:42:03 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 17:52:12
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Shar makes a better villain than Cyric, but hey that isn“t hard since he will always be the insane failure and i can“t take him serious, sorry.
Nevertheless i rather see Shar lose some of her power she gained, the shades and her machinations are quite opposite. She is subtle and tries to manipulate much like Bane while the Shade are openly expansionist somewhat similar to the Zhentarim before 4e screwed them over, yet the Zhentarim were fitting for they were in the "Bane Camp" while the Shades follow a goddess who rather stays in the shadows and open expasionistic moves are not her style. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
