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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jul 2012 : 10:07:59
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Hi Everybody,
I know... again for the old big issue: Greenskins ;)
Today I want to discuss, if a kingdom of "evil" humanoids like Many Arrows is going to be accepted also in other regions.
Specifically:
Mixed Humanoids in the Giant'sPlains ( Goblin, Hobgoblin, Gnoll, Orc etc. )
My main issue here is, that the kingdom of many arrows though founded through conquest (well, which human kingdom hasn't? ) is now "accepted" or tolerated.
The silver League could probably smash them with ease, and yet they do not do so.
Why do you think so?
And please stay in the realms, and leave things like "wizards being nice to... or stopping discrimnination" out.
And more specific, would the relams aroung the giant's Plains tolerate something like mentioned above?
Would they eventually even trade?
This canbe enwidened to other regions and humanoids of course....
Looking forward to the discussion.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2012 : 12:39:34
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| What's the era under discussion? 2-3e? 4e? Can you give us a date range you're thinking of to give us a place to start? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2012 : 13:13:53
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| Well, what kingdom could possibly fall with invincible Drizzt Drow'urden vigilantly defending its borders? And what enemies would ever dare attack it? WotC and/or RAS wanted an "official" orc presence in the Realms and so they fabricated one, and it will likely remain indefinitely. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2012 : 15:06:51
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I'm not so convinced that it could be smashed with ease... Very large numbers of orcs have frequently proven hard to defeat.
It could be that the other nations decided it wasn't worth the effort, and waited for it to self-destruct, as logic would indicate should have happened after the death of Obould. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2012 : 16:01:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not so convinced that it could be smashed with ease... Very large numbers of orcs have frequently proven hard to defeat.
It could be that the other nations decided it wasn't worth the effort, and waited for it to self-destruct, as logic would indicate should have happened after the death of Obould.
While it is true that no one expected Many Arrows to last , the fact is that Obould legacy has proved surprisingly resilient.
Thus many of the surrounding kingdoms have come to realize that it is something they can no longer ignore, but the military strength required to destroy it would be enormous and possibly leave the Silver Marches fatally vulnerable to attacks by other, darker power groups such as the Shadovar.
Thus Alusair's Live and let Live policy is actually sensible and tactically astute and not just an idealistic dream. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2012 : 19:10:12
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@hoondatha:
thinking of western border of Giant's plain, early 1369.
numbers: approx 2300 Hobgoblins ( 65% ) Goblins ( 23%) Gnolls ( 5% ) and Bugbears (3%) Others 4%
totalling in a bit over 860 fighting adults, including some mid lev3el mages and clercis, as well as approx 30 low level cleric and 15 low level mage
Led by group of mid-level Hobgoblin / goblin avergae level 8-9.
Leader: Tithulka, Hobgoblin Fighter 8 Legenedary Leader 3 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2012 : 20:06:27
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Actually, I don't think it was so much a 'not worth the effort' thing, but rather, a very neutral 'give them half a chance' stance, which Drizzt was a proponent of.
Why annihilate a huge group of people (YES, they are PEOPLE) just because of differing ideologies? There are plenty of humans (and human Realms) I consider a much greater evil then simple Orcs. Orcs just do what they think they are supposed to do, and it has been proven time again (all over the Realms) that Orcs can live alongside humans (and demi-humans) in peace, and even to mutual benefit (see Thesk for an example).
King Azoun gave an Orc General a medal; I think that was a major turning point right there. Azoun was one of THE most influential FR political leaders of all time, and his decisions carried much weight throughout the Realms. Men fought and died alongside Orcs in the Tuigan war - many of them probably came home with a very different opinion of them.
Attitudes change.. in a hundred years a group that was once slaves could even have a prominent world leader amongst their ranks.  Its about time the folks of the Realms 'grew up' a bit. For a setting with very little in the way of sexual and even racial (demi-human) discrimination, I find it bizarre that some races are still "killed on sight". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jul 2012 20:07:01 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2012 : 20:21:23
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It seems to me that allowing the orcs to found a kingdom of sorts in the North was actually a very shrewd move for the Silver Marches. I would imagine that orc hordes issuing from the Spine of the World (and lets face it this is not an uncommon occurence) would throw themselves at the kingdom of Many Arrows in much the same way as happened with Obould's original fortress (now citadel Felbarr i think).
It looks to me that orcs suffer a serious case of the green eyed monster much more than other humanoids (couldnt resist) and so would target the kingdom of Many Arrows first.
What better way to defend against a horde of fast breeding highly aggressive enemy than to have a kingdom of them in the way.
The Covenant tried using the Uthgardt barbarians as a bulwark against the orc hordes to allow civilisation to flourish in the North, and even this did not last as the barbarian tribes simply ran out of numbers. If they hadnt canned all 3rd edition lore threads i would have said that this whole thing was part of the reformed Covenant's plan to keep the North safe from the orc hordes.
An orc kingdom would also help weed out those not totally dedicated to the Silver Marches (unfortunately it seems that for 4th edition all the dwarves would stick together and cede from the Marches when in 3rd edition lore im sure one of the dwarf leaders (emerus warcrown maybe was loyal to the Marches and Alustriel first, and persuaded his dwarven cousin to join to further that dream).
The orc kingdom would also give other enemies (not the orc hordes) within and without the Marches an enemy to focus on (i imagine The Arcane Brotherhood and the Shades would be tempted to eliminate the orc kingdom before dealing with the Silver Marches, and any traitors in the Marches ranks would have to worry about Many Arrows first before plotting against their fellows).
Just my two cents, although it does seem to me like Many Arrows was just plonked in there to give a bit of variety in the North rather than it being a well planned include which was then followed through thoroughly with lore to back it up.
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2012 : 08:43:38
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Ok, now the question is:
I have overcome the critical mass of jst being wiped out by some over-anxious adventurers, since 900 warriors is too much for even the craziest band, and also a dragon will eventually pick off some, but not the whole lot.
now, the question is: When mining in the mountain range near there, which factions couldbe trading with them?
- rundeen?, Iron rune ( not sure if correct ), Zhents?
Looking forward to replies.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6383 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2012 : 14:32:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
Ok, now the question is:
I have overcome the critical mass of jst being wiped out by some over-anxious adventurers, since 900 warriors is too much for even the craziest band, and also a dragon will eventually pick off some, but not the whole lot.
Actually, I don't see why a dragon couldn't take 900 orcs. It wouldn't be an instanteous thing, obviously, but so long as the dragon stayed airborne and made good use of its breath weapon and spells, those orcs wouldn't last long. Assuming, of course, that they weren't using terrain to their advantage. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2012 : 15:53:56
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ANYONE with 'mercantile mindset' would trade with them, including entire nations like Amn and Sembia. Folks trade with drow, who are far worse. In the North, there are several Uthgardt groups who are considered brutal barbarians (who raid and kill just like Orcs), and 'brave' (foolish?) merchants still make the journey to their camps to trade with therm. What's the difference?
According to the Stonelands and the Goblin Marches, Orcs mine metal ore, smelt it, and make decent (not quality) weapons from it. There is always a market for weapons, even low-grade ones, and if they picked-up some techniques along the way, they could produce better weapons which everyone would want. Or they could just sell the refined metal to others.
Also, to add to the original topic, 'monster' kingdoms would be ignored - and perhaps even encouraged - in regions where there is already a monster-infestation, to use as a 'buffer zone' by the more civilized areas. Better an enemy you could treat with, and even help keep the others in-check (which Obould has done TWICE now, against other Orcs). In our RW, we have learned the hard way how hard it is to fight isolated bands of enemies with no common territory - its so much easier to deal with some form of organization that can maintain control over their own populace. Why do you think organized crime still exists? Its TOLERATED, because unorganized crime is so much worse. Govt's have even learned to use these criminal groups to their advantage. I won't mention the first example (theory) that comes to mind, but look at the pirates - most nations hired them to attack their competitors (freebooters). Only the United States refused to parley with them, and pay their 'tax', and chased them all the way back to Africa (Tripoli - its where that line in our Marines song comes from).
Pirates, Organized Crime, orcs - no difference. You tolerate them because it is easier to use them against others of their ilk. Better that then anarchy. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2012 15:54:53 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2012 : 16:12:58
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ok, to clarify a few things,
- they have or will settle in the giantsd plain western border to the mountain range, the foothills of the troll mountains.
@dazzlerdal: they are not orcs, but mainly hobgoblins and Goblins, highly disciplined. the leaders or the leader, has fought as mercenary long time under the zhents, and they have several medium-level adventurers, from mages, to sorcerers and clerics , fighters and rogues. so not the average primitve orcs, but quite experienced adventurers and mercenaries, who know their share of information.
@wooly: they have two"strike teams" which have before killed six dragons in the last four years, alone. they are experienced dragon slayers, have ballistae and other mechanical and magic devices to fight dragons. of courye, against a wyrm or something - they still stand noch chance.
@markus: thx for input as usual very helpful. but, again, these are not orce, but hobgoblins who make the deals etc - which could make things eaiser since they have a better reputation than goblins or orcs. they have several outposts for mining in the stonelands and goblin marches, which produce ore and weapons, but more of standard quality. just the scale is quite small still, since the building of smelters etc. takes a lot of time and ressources.
I agree to your point of view - a visible enemy is easier to handle than an invisible one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2012 : 03:17:41
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Pg. 23, Elminster's Ecologies: The High Moor
quote:
Hobgoblins typically wear clothing made of sheepskin. They carry a variety of weapons, usually clubs and spears,though they sometimes send representatives to Soubar to trade for swords of various types. They tend to prefer scimitars. (I can understand this preference because that's what I use.) They aren't always well received in Soubar, though, because they have raided the town on occasion.
The hobgoblins dislike the High Moor goblins. While uneasy around humans, they are relatively tolerant, and as demonstrated by their trade with Soubar, they are sometimes even willing to talk to humans. They make decent guides if approached with respect, and they manufacture some items worth trading for, including some incredible sheepskin clothing that is resplendent embroidery and beadwork.
This is specific to the Hobgoblin tribes of the High moor; there are "numerous tirbes", and they DO NOT make war on each other. They do fight other tribes on the High Moor. This indicates two things - they have a level of culture and sophistication much higher then most other goblinoids, and have a form of solidarity when it comes to their own kind. It also shows that they are quite capable of interacting with humans amicably (and aren't 'shot on sight' like in The North, which is a point I've been trying to make for some time). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jul 2012 06:23:14 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2012 : 04:13:18
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I was watching a history channel show today about the Lombards.
Made me do a bit of refreshing in my head about the folks...and when I read on this thread a bit more about Hobgoblins I kinda tied the two together.
I think Hobgoblins are much akin to the Lombards during their invasion and occupation of Italy before the Franks moved in and took over: barbaric, but actually still rather highly advanced in certain areas despite their barbarity. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2012 : 06:28:39
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Now you have me thinking about Hobgoblins with cheesy German Accents. And here I thought they were Japanese. 
I got this weird picture in my head of a cross between an orc and Dr.Strangelove. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2012 : 06:54:33
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@Markus? anything wrong with Germans ;) ;)
I was trxying to find evidance of this as well, but there is no really printed info on their peaceful interaction with humans.
I also always thought their lawful nature and highly pronounced discipline makes them more trustworthy than other goblinoids from the start.
Also many entries state that they are highly reliable mercenaries and therefore preferred to other races.
so, despite THO and Ed's replies to the general behaviour of Hobgoblins, I can very well imagine them to form a stable settlement and produce some goods. Simply by forcing the other humanoids in line and follow a caste system.
btw the info ed and THO have given for Hobgoblins can make you shiver, especially when they stated, somewhere 2011, that the sythilisian empire, or main parts of their recuritment success was the result of a support of a SINGLE tribe of them...
In general they stated they prefer to stay undercover, as long as they can get what they need with ease why risk too much attention...
I am trying to make out what happens if some individuals decide NOT to stay secret, and do so quite successful. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2012 : 15:30:12
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I said 'cheesy', as in old Hollywood/TV style accents (in other words, bad American actors doing bad accents). Think Hogan's Heroes.
I didn't mean Germans (or their speech) was 'cheesy' (I had a feeling someone might misinterpret that).
As to the topic, I know a little bit about hobgoblins. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2012 : 16:14:05
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I was only kidding I hope you know:) I thought I could make the joke - for being a German myself but Ironic statements is something which is very hard for me in written langauage english
I ALSO remember, that similar to me you seem to have a "nack" for the greenskins ;) which by the way makes you very sympathic :)
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Tolerance for Humanoid Realms
