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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 18:50:12
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Lore support for multiple eras is on the table.
Questions?
What can we do to help ensure it's an actuality?
This I can answer in part. Keep doing what your doing now, just do more.
Well, then.
Honouring Ed's Realms: A Plea for Plurality
I look forward to the 'new' Realms the team come up with; I expect to buy much of it, enjoy it and find it useful. I'm glad most of all for Ed's sake that the last little blip is over.
But the very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful.
I've been struck again and again, reading various blogs and forum threads, how consistently the Old Grey Box is respected by a great many people who are indifferent or hostile to the Realms' later publishing history. It's often expressed more plainly and forcefully than at Candlekeep, where we've stuck with the setting while many others have given up, we're used to extracting value from products that aren't ideally what we'd want, and where certain points are so obvious it seems churlish to keep making them.
How Elminster's Forgotten Realms sells may tell much. However, that book's highlighting of Elminster may repel its core audience, and that's a bad sign among the positive, heartening signs now appearing. Another is the release this year of yet one more Undermountain product conceived as if the appeal of Undermountain is the name and most basic concept, rather than Ed's (and Steven's) execution of it, so that we've got sublevels and variants down the years but none of Ed's actual levels, already designed thirty years ago, since the first boxed set.
For myself, I think the mid-fourteenth-century Realms is by far the richest, most fruitful and dynamic one we have; it deserves most of all to have its potential fulfilled, with all the lore, stories, and adventures that got left behind as managers and editors moved through what sometimes seemed their series of inventive ways of doing anything but publish the setting they bought.
I see the worth of moving forward but doing it right, finding new surprising things, not 'stagnating', which enthuses the team and to many of us. But I must say my heart fell, watching the Gen Con presentation, when I saw the n+1th RSE pushed with no mention of the multi-era approach I'd hoped for since Erik Scott de Bie mooted the idea. The Realms' appeal is plural; that appeal-of-the-newest is not its only part, just as RSEs aren't, Drizzt isn't, the Heartlands and Ed Greenwood's literary voice aren't, and just as Del Rey and Dark Horse don't publish nothing but the latest post-Episode VI Star Wars novel timeline. So this is why I'd like to see the compromise of Realms sourcebooks covering multiple eras, for those of us who most love the original Realms, and so new people can find it too.
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Edited by - Faraer on 19 Aug 2012 17:39:45
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 20:01:43
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| Well said. I throw my whole-hearted support behind this post. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 20:12:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I see the worth of moving forward but doing it right, finding new surprising things, not 'stagnating', which enthuses the team and to many of us. But I must say my heart fell, watching the Gen Con presentation, when I saw the n+1th RSE pushed with no mention of the multi-era approach I'd hoped for since Erik Scott de Bie mooted the idea. The Realms' appeal is plural; that appeal-of-the-newest is not its only part, just as RSEs aren't, Drizzt isn't, the Heartlands and Ed Greenwood's literary voice aren't, and just as Del Rey and Dark Horse don't publish nothing but the latest post-Episode VI Star Wars novel timeline. So this is why I'd like to see the compromise of Realms sourcebooks covering multiple eras, for those of us who most love the original Realms, and so new people can find it too.
Agreed, certainly. I think the move to reopen their catalog of PDFs is a good thing. It should have been reopened and made available for purchase long ago. But just opening up the old PDFs doesn't seem like enough to me.
If they're going to build on the 4E world and not an earlier version, I'm definitely going to be disappointed. Perhaps disappointed enough that I won't buy the 5E version. But if they're going to polish the least palatable version of the Realms because of some principle of "all-inclusiveness" then they'd better darn well realize that many people have a deep dislike for that world and put at least some of their energy and design focus on the past.
I'd like to see an adventure where it really is possible to stop the Time of Troubles from happening, and speculation FROM ED HIMSELF about how the world would develop.
I'd like to see an adventure where it's possible to stop Shar from becoming ascendant, another adventure on helping Elistraee win in her contest with Lolth, and yet another adventure on preventing Mystra's death on her own plane. I'd like to see sidebars written by Ed himself on the likely outcomes, and how those would affect the region and the world.
If they really do want to turn the Realms back over to "the people" rather than letting us passively sit through RSE after RSE, then we need to have OPTIONS rather than outcomes.
Wasn't that the point of adventure hooks in 1E and 2E? Seriously, most of the adventure hooks that were really good have been scooped up and stolen by authors. And instead of our players and DMs being in control, we just got served canon on a plate.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 20:37:32
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If it's not obvious (based on wotc's announced plan to release everything on PDF, particularly) tthat the multi-era approach is going on, I'm not sure what else I can do to make it clear.
WotC has not fully articulated their product line, because it's two years out. They've signaled they're open to our ideas. Now is the time to advocate the multi era approach. It's really not fair to ask them to be open while also demanding they fully detail exactly a plan immediately.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 21:07:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If it's not obvious (based on wotc's announced plan to release everything on PDF, particularly) tthat the multi-era approach is going on, I'm not sure what else I can do to make it clear.
WotC has not fully articulated their product line, because it's two years out. They've signaled they're open to our ideas. Now is the time to advocate the multi era approach. It's really not fair to ask them to be open while also demanding they fully detail exactly a plan immediately.
Cheers
In business, as in all of life, fairness goes both ways.
For example, it is unfair for a business to make promises to their customers, expect them to jump on board, and then not follow through. There were many promises made about DDI, and people got on board because of those promises. Did all of those promises come through, were they delivered?
WotC has made some great products. But they've also developed a well-earned reputation for making promises and not delivering on them.
WotC is again asking us to get on board with a whole new vision. Lots of good-feeling talk is being put out there, but few details. We're being asked to trust, have faith, etc.
I love that they're releasing old PDFs. At the same time, it's not going to help me a lot because I've lived the past 20+ years and obtained about 90% of those old products. They will be excellent and important for newer fans to see and get, so I'm all for that. But of the older material, I've used what I'm going to use (multiple times!). So if they're going to concentrate on updating and "repairing" the least-acceptable version of the Realms (4E), then I definitely want some NEW material from earlier ages. I want NEW earlier-age adventures, I want NEW earlier-age material, so I support the multi-era concept in that regard. I will not use a post-cataclysm world, it's not what I want; so the multi-era concept is the only way to crack open my wallet if no reboot is going to happen.
At the end of the day, though: show me. Do it, don't just say it and then a year out change the plan (again). That seems like more than a fair request to me.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 18 Aug 2012 21:13:00 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 21:30:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If it's not obvious (based on wotc's announced plan to release everything on PDF, particularly) tthat the multi-era approach is going on, I'm not sure what else I can do to make it clear.
WotC has not fully articulated their product line, because it's two years out. They've signaled they're open to our ideas. Now is the time to advocate the multi era approach. It's really not fair to ask them to be open while also demanding they fully detail exactly a plan immediately.
Cheers
In business, as in all of life, fairness goes both ways.
For example, it is unfair for a business to make promises to their customers, expect them to jump on board, and then not follow through. There were many promises made about DDI, and people got on board because of those promises. Did all of those promises come through, were they delivered?
WotC has made some great products. But they've also developed a well-earned reputation for making promises and not delivering on them.
WotC is again asking us to get on board with a whole new vision. Lots of good-feeling talk is being put out there, but few details. We're being asked to trust, have faith, etc.
I love that they're releasing old PDFs. At the same time, it's not going to help me a lot because I've lived the past 20+ years and obtained about 90% of those old products. They will be excellent and important for newer fans to see and get, so I'm all for that. But of the older material, I've used what I'm going to use (multiple times!). So if they're going to concentrate on updating and "repairing" the least-acceptable version of the Realms (4E), then I definitely want some NEW material from earlier ages. I want NEW earlier-age adventures, I want NEW earlier-age material, so I support the multi-era concept in that regard. I will not use a post-cataclysm world, it's not what I want; so the multi-era concept is the only way to crack open my wallet if no reboot is going to happen.
At the end of the day, though: show me. Do it, don't just say it and then a year out change the plan (again). That seems like more than a fair request to me.
Yeah, promises from WotC in the past decade have been very not spot on. They releases D&D online where we could "build characters just like the game", then as far as I know, they never put in prestige classes (they may have finally by now, but the DMG prestige classes should have been part of the original game). They introduced a player character sheet builder (e-tools) that sucked so bad that a 3rd party had to come in and take it over, and just as said 3rd party was making a really usable product... they ripped the licensing away from them.
Sadly, while I love the realms, I gotta say, I've finally started really looking at pathfinder, and I frankly like what I've seen so far. Now, did Pathfinder have a huge helping hand from WotC putting out a bunch of stuff that they've basically copied and/or improved upon... yes.... Also, is the realms perfectly usable with pathfinder.... yes... Might it be possible that wizards allocate certain eras of the realms out to third parties that they might design campaign material for that era of the realms. If there was some major RSE between these eras (or even some minor change), it could easily explain away rules changes between systems (i.e. Mystra changed how some spells worked, or some mysteries of learning were lost and thereby people started doing things differently <i.e. nowadays, how many people know how to work on their car by listening to it compared to 40 years ago>). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 21:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If it's not obvious (based on wotc's announced plan to release everything on PDF, particularly) tthat the multi-era approach is going on, I'm not sure what else I can do to make it clear.
WotC has not fully articulated their product line, because it's two years out. They've signaled they're open to our ideas. Now is the time to advocate the multi era approach. It's really not fair to ask them to be open while also demanding they fully detail exactly a plan immediately.
Cheers
In business, as in all of life, fairness goes both ways.
For example, it is unfair for a business to make promises to their customers, expect them to jump on board, and then not follow through. There were many promises made about DDI, and people got on board because of those promises. Did all of those promises come through, were they delivered?
WotC has made some great products. But they've also developed a well-earned reputation for making promises and not delivering on them.
WotC is again asking us to get on board with a whole new vision. Lots of good-feeling talk is being put out there, but few details. We're being asked to trust, have faith, etc.
I love that they're releasing old PDFs. At the same time, it's not going to help me a lot because I've lived the past 20+ years and obtained about 90% of those old products. They will be excellent and important for newer fans to see and get, so I'm all for that. But of the older material, I've used what I'm going to use (multiple times!). So if they're going to concentrate on updating and "repairing" the least-acceptable version of the Realms (4E), then I definitely want some NEW material from earlier ages. I want NEW earlier-age adventures, I want NEW earlier-age material, so I support the multi-era concept in that regard. I will not use a post-cataclysm world, it's not what I want; so the multi-era concept is the only way to crack open my wallet if no reboot is going to happen.
At the end of the day, though: show me. Do it, don't just say it and then a year out change the plan (again). That seems like more than a fair request to me.
Yeah, promises from WotC in the past decade have been very not spot on. They releases D&D online where we could "build characters just like the game", then as far as I know, they never put in prestige classes (they may have finally by now, but the DMG prestige classes should have been part of the original game). They introduced a player character sheet builder (e-tools) that sucked so bad that a 3rd party had to come in and take it over, and just as said 3rd party was making a really usable product... they ripped the licensing away from them.
Sadly, while I love the realms, I gotta say, I've finally started really looking at pathfinder, and I frankly like what I've seen so far. Now, did Pathfinder have a huge helping hand from WotC putting out a bunch of stuff that they've basically copied and/or improved upon... yes.... Also, is the realms perfectly usable with pathfinder.... yes... Might it be possible that wizards allocate certain eras of the realms out to third parties that they might design campaign material for that era of the realms. If there was some major RSE between these eras (or even some minor change), it could easily explain away rules changes between systems (i.e. Mystra changed how some spells worked, or some mysteries of learning were lost and thereby people started doing things differently <i.e. nowadays, how many people know how to work on their car by listening to it compared to 40 years ago>).
Just a general answer pointed at no scribe in particular, just piggybacking on the feelings expressed:
I can't arm wrestle anyone her into believing what wotc is saying now.
But I can say one thing in certainty.... The team that was steering the vessel through the last several years is gone....not involved...this is a brand new team. And not to sound like a broken record but we were told at least twice Realms design now goes through Ed
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I do not think the average fan can believe how much is crossing his desk every day unless you hear it from him, as I was lucky enough. I had this confirmed by others with wotc. Ed is no longer consulted after the fact or even worse, not at all.....but right at the beginning, of everything. If that's not good enough, I don't know what ever would be. The amount of work Ed now has to do for the realms is truly staggering, back-breaking loads. I honestly don't know how in faerun he manages, but I am as glad as hell he can.
Also, I know most of you were not there, but I saw the twinkle in Jim Lowder's eye when he discussed the changes. He gets it,he really does and he is few cited as well.
The decision makers who sat in on the seminar, not only listened ....they were engaged. 100% Asking what we wanted, why we wanted it and eve better.....how could they provide it to us. Us.....the people right there in front of them, they could not have had a more demanding, knowledgable group to interact with. I sat back and soaked it up, all the while my grin kept growing.
This new team does get it. All of it. They see what we dislike, but they also see what some like about the changes. And they are really trying to be true to the whole community. Not a job I envy. But I've been in sales over twenty years......I know when I'm being sold a bill of goods just to move me on. This is the real deal.
But this is life, in the real world and the only thing I'm sure of is everyone won't get everything they want, but I think almost all,of us can get more than enough to go with and enjoy. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 18 Aug 2012 21:49:04 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 21:51:51
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One of the books I've thought of is a campaign-building guide which breaks down the kinds of plots and events that happen in the Realms, giving general descriptions of types of power groups (mainly of the more common, local sort) and individual actors, their agents, their common short- and long-term aims, methods of achieving them directly and through manipulating others, the kinds of twists that happen, deceptions and bluffs and decoys, effective ways of combining multiple such threads with the PCs, interspersed with many examples. A book to help the DM create plot hooks and rumours, and bridge the often wide gap between the 'theoretical' sourcebooks on the one hand, and fully implemented scenarios or calendars of current clack on the other. This would of course be suitable for different eras by its nature.
(I don't think anyone here is asking for blood oaths, or details of plans that don't exist.) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 22:01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
One of the books I've thought of is a campaign-building guide which breaks down the kinds of plots and events that happen in the Realms, giving general descriptions of types of power groups (mainly of the more common, local sort) and individual actors, their agents, their common short- and long-term aims, methods of achieving them directly and through manipulating others, the kinds of twists that happen, deceptions and bluffs and decoys, effective ways of combining multiple such threads with the PCs, interspersed with many examples. A book to help the DM create plot hooks and rumours, and bridge the often wide gap between the 'theoretical' sourcebooks on the one hand, and fully implemented scenarios or calendars of current clack on the other. This would of course be suitable for different eras by its nature.
(I don't think anyone here is asking for blood oaths, or details of plans that don't exist.)
Maybe a new scroll in the appropriate shelf asking scribes to,share what kind of sourcebooks they would like to see.
And I am very heartend that the latest sourcebook which Our own Brian James was a huge part has already embraced the more fluff, less crunch as well as era neutrality. That's all second hand, but from sources who do know 
Sorry it may not have been obvious, but I was talking about MenZoberranzan city of intrigue |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 18 Aug 2012 22:02:40 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 22:03:53
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Releasing the old products is a symbolic gesture. Their book plans for the Sundering are also very significant. There's more.
But really you should wait for all the facts before jumping to judgment.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 22:14:46
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Erik, WotC is asking us to jump to judgement without any facts. That's one of things that bugged me the most about the keynote. I wasn't expecting it to turn out to be as Realms-centric as it was, but I was also hoping to hear at least a few specifics. What I got was a lot of platitudes, and a lot of cheerleading, mixed with a very few badly needed admissions, like how the Spellplague was a bad idea.
Don't get me wrong. I'm interested. And I'm watching. But WotC burned me so badly with 4e that the burden is on them to prove that any of this is any good. That they mean even the slightest bit of what they're saying. And until they prove that (and I'm fine if it takes them two years to get all the ducks in a row so they can), then I will remain deeply, deeply skeptical. Because we've heard all this before, and 4e was the result.
If they release a full Haunted Halls, if they release Ed's Dungeon of Death, if they release products in the fourteenth century (whether that's OGB era, 2e era, or even 3e era), I'll buy them. Joyfully. But I'll believe it only when I see them on store shelves. Until then, they haven't proved it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 22:20:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Releasing the old products is a symbolic gesture. Their book plans for the Sundering are also very significant. There's more.
But really you should wait for all the facts before jumping to judgment.
Cheers
OMG you don't bloody get it. I have made NO judgment other than expressing for a dislike that the reboot isn't happening.
I've made no judgment about the Sundering or whatever because I have no information on it.
I'm going to try to be as clear as possible on this: I'm tired of undelivered promises, and that's ALL that I have seen so far. Regardless of having a new team, this is incredibly similar to the "It's awesome! You'll love it! We GET IT people!" Public Relations hoopla that was spooned out prior to 4E. Fool me once, shame on WotC; fool me again, shame on me, no?
A little personal anecdote:
This weekend, I've been reading the final book in Salvatore's Neverwinter series. Every single baddie group in Neverwinter is getting the chop, one by one, by Drizzt and companions. Every. Single. One. Now, I'm only about halfway through, but if this book just came out, and they're still doing the same-old same-old of having Big Name NPCs do all the adventure hooks and mop everything up, what is the point of me buying a supplement like Neverwinter 4E?
I totally get that this Salvatore book was planned out long ago. But on the consumer side, right now, I haven't seen much change at all. What I do know of the Sundering is that it's yet another RSE with Big Name NPCs doing all the work, not my player group. And it's not even out yet, it probably won't wrap up until 2014.
Where's the change?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 18 Aug 2012 22:22:05 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4492 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 22:52:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Releasing the old products is a symbolic gesture. Their book plans for the Sundering are also very significant. There's more.
But really you should wait for all the facts before jumping to judgment.
Cheers
OMG you don't bloody get it. I have made NO judgment other than expressing for a dislike that the reboot isn't happening.
I've made no judgment about the Sundering or whatever because I have no information on it.
I'm going to try to be as clear as possible on this: I'm tired of undelivered promises, and that's ALL that I have seen so far. Regardless of having a new team, this is incredibly similar to the "It's awesome! You'll love it! We GET IT people!" Public Relations hoopla that was spooned out prior to 4E. Fool me once, shame on WotC; fool me again, shame on me, no?
Because it is awesome? Because a lot of people thought they did GET IT? Also, the only thing that I don't think they got out was the VTT, which I don't think I'd ever use anyways. I didn't buy DDI for that in the first place and have been happy with my purchase every year since.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
A little personal anecdote:
This weekend, I've been reading the final book in Salvatore's Neverwinter series. Every single baddie group in Neverwinter is getting the chop, one by one, by Drizzt and companions. Every. Single. One. Now, I'm only about halfway through, but if this book just came out, and they're still doing the same-old same-old of having Big Name NPCs do all the adventure hooks and mop everything up, what is the point of me buying a supplement like Neverwinter 4E?
I bought the Neverwinter book and I have no problems running the city as written in the book. Even as I plan to read the Drizzt trilogy, I'll still run it as I feel it should be run. I see no reason why the influence of a few novels SHOULD influence my campaign. IT doesn't work like that. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 22:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Erik, WotC is asking us to jump to judgement without any facts. That's one of things that bugged me the most about the keynote. I wasn't expecting it to turn out to be as Realms-centric as it was, but I was also hoping to hear at least a few specifics. What I got was a lot of platitudes, and a lot of cheerleading, mixed with a very few badly needed admissions, like how the Spellplague was a bad idea.
Don't get me wrong. I'm interested. And I'm watching. But WotC burned me so badly with 4e that the burden is on them to prove that any of this is any good. That they mean even the slightest bit of what they're saying. And until they prove that (and I'm fine if it takes them two years to get all the ducks in a row so they can), then I will remain deeply, deeply skeptical. Because we've heard all this before, and 4e was the result.
If they release a full Haunted Halls, if they release Ed's Dungeon of Death, if they release products in the fourteenth century (whether that's OGB era, 2e era, or even 3e era), I'll buy them. Joyfully. But I'll believe it only when I see them on store shelves. Until then, they haven't proved it.
Actually they are asking,for patience, as they are just starting this whole process. That was stressed several times. How early they are in to this and how many things are left to decide. But, I do it's hard not to dive right in! it's almost impossible. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 18 Aug 2012 23:00:43 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 22:57:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Releasing the old products is a symbolic gesture. Their book plans for the Sundering are also very significant. There's more.
But really you should wait for all the facts before jumping to judgment.
Cheers
OMG you don't bloody get it. I have made NO judgment other than expressing for a dislike that the reboot isn't happening.
I've made no judgment about the Sundering or whatever because I have no information on it.
I'm going to try to be as clear as possible on this: I'm tired of undelivered promises, and that's ALL that I have seen so far. Regardless of having a new team, this is incredibly similar to the "It's awesome! You'll love it! We GET IT people!" Public Relations hoopla that was spooned out prior to 4E. Fool me once, shame on WotC; fool me again, shame on me, no?
A little personal anecdote:
This weekend, I've been reading the final book in Salvatore's Neverwinter series. Every single baddie group in Neverwinter is getting the chop, one by one, by Drizzt and companions. Every. Single. One. Now, I'm only about halfway through, but if this book just came out, and they're still doing the same-old same-old of having Big Name NPCs do all the adventure hooks and mop everything up, what is the point of me buying a supplement like Neverwinter 4E?
I totally get that this Salvatore book was planned out long ago. But on the consumer side, right now, I haven't seen much change at all. What I do know of the Sundering is that it's yet another RSE with Big Name NPCs doing all the work, not my player group. And it's not even out yet, it probably won't wrap up until 2014.
Where's the change?
Ripping abeir and toil back apart sounds like a change to me.
AO, Mystra, Helm and most likely Mask returning is change.
Addressing the spell plague is a huge change
If anyone gets it, it is Erik.
Last time around I remember talk of Ed remaining on board trying to do what he could to nudge the boat a bit if he could.
This time Ed is not the captain, he's the fleet admiral.
That is huge. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 22:59:43
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Some thing else of massive import.
Everyone who has anything to to with the changes is wrapped up at GenCon, for a few days yet. They can't address any concerns, fears or questions.
Yet.
I don't expect you all to be patient for two full years, but we have to at least wait until the end of next week! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2012 : 23:27:55
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Menzo is era neutral. There are rules for running the city as far back as the height of House Do'Urden, or even farther back.
Confirmed today, Ed's Realms will be era neutral as well. It's meant to apply to all manner of timelines.
The realms is seeing multi-era support in the form of Brian's Cormyr article, Menzo, Ed's Realms, and now this whole release of the old stuff (with some extras--to be discussed when I write up the seminar).
Does it need to be etched in stone?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 18 Aug 2012 23:30:20 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 00:46:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Because it is awesome? Because a lot of people thought they did GET IT? Also, the only thing that I don't think they got out was the VTT, which I don't think I'd ever use anyways. I didn't buy DDI for that in the first place and have been happy with my purchase every year since.
I bought the Neverwinter book and I have no problems running the city as written in the book. Even as I plan to read the Drizzt trilogy, I'll still run it as I feel it should be run. I see no reason why the influence of a few novels SHOULD influence my campaign. IT doesn't work like that.
Your play group may think 4E was "awesome" but mine utterly rejected it as unplayable. Your group may be willing to "replay" things solved by novel events, mine won't.
I wasted money on the 3-hardback series "Tearing of the Weave" because "everything in it is made irrelevant" according to my group. I agreed with their assessment.
I'm not going to change my group because one person on the internet says something "should" work according to their beliefs. In any case, my group and I aren't the only ones who feel this way.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 00:52:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Menzo is era neutral. There are rules for running the city as far back as the height of House Do'Urden, or even farther back.
Confirmed today, Ed's Realms will be era neutral as well. It's meant to apply to all manner of timelines.
The realms is seeing multi-era support in the form of Brian's Cormyr article, Menzo, Ed's Realms, and now this whole release of the old stuff (with some extras--to be discussed when I write up the seminar).
Does it need to be etched in stone?
Cheers
My hope is that the older era material won't just be reprints with new covers, but will have a great deal of new lore and art. If you could speak to that issue as well, it would be appreciated. I'm not interested in new post-cataclysm material, but rather old era new lore, adventures, etc.
Also, WRT multi-era playability, does this mean (for example) there will be sidebars for 1E, 2E, 3E, 4E and 5E? Or is it more that it's just really generic, not mentioning NPC names and the like?
Because I'll say it right now, if books are super-heavy on post-Cataclysm material, I may not buy them at all. This isn't a rant or a QQ-style threat, it's just a fact based on its utility for my play group.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 19 Aug 2012 01:31:14 |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 01:40:37
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This may sound odd coming from a complete grognard reactionary like me, but I am interested in what can be done with the post-Sellplague Realms. Considering the sheer size and magnitude of the lore-wrecking damage that was inflicted for 4th Edition, I am immensely curious as to how they propose to address these issue.
Maybe I'm just a masochist. Who knows?
Regardless, the suggestion that we owe them at least the rest of the week before making a rush to judgment on these efforts is a sound one. It will likely take them at least as much time again after the convention ends to release their conclusions and summaries, meaning it would not be amiss to give them the rest of the month. I've waited this long for something concrete - a couple of weeks longer isn't a big deal.
And like it was stated - Ed is now the Honcho. This, more than anything, is what we've been demanding for any and all work on the Realms moving outward. Well...we got it. Whether WOTC agreed that the creator should have control, or whether they did it just to shut people like me up so they don't have to put up with our *REDACTED*, doesn't matter. One of the biggest demands we made has been given to us.
And because of that, I'm willing to wait and see.
- OMH
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 01:46:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If it's not obvious (based on wotc's announced plan to release everything on PDF, particularly) ...
Has the specific initiative to release the entire backlog of TSR/WotC products in PDF for D&D been officially confirmed by Wizards?
I only ask, because I've read some back and forth statements on EN World that would lead me to believe that the format of the electronic backlog still hasn't been decided. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 01:55:38
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| does that mean that they're not doing hard covers or soft covers anymore???? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 01:56:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
If it's not obvious (based on wotc's announced plan to release everything on PDF, particularly) ...
Has the specific initiative to release the entire backlog of TSR/WotC products in PDF for D&D been officially confirmed by Wizards?
I only ask, because I've read some back and forth statements on EN World that would lead me to believe that the format of the electronic backlog still hasn't been decided.
We were told that the website that will handle this was close to coming online. For obvious reasons, everything ever published won't be available on day one, but that is the plan. This is where any "director's cuts" or re-imagined products would also pop up. (if they are decided to be moved forward on) |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 01:57:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
does that mean that they're not doing hard covers or soft covers anymore????
No, if that's in the works it wasn't mentioned, we were told that all this pertains the back catalogue of previously published products. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 19 Aug 2012 01:59:54 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 02:23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
does that mean that they're not doing hard covers or soft covers anymore????
No, if that's in the works it wasn't mentioned, we were told that all this pertains the back catalogue of previously published products.
DDI? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 02:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
does that mean that they're not doing hard covers or soft covers anymore????
No, if that's in the works it wasn't mentioned, we were told that all this pertains the back catalogue of previously published products.
DDI?
Maybe ? Sorry, I just don't recall if that was mentioned. I about 9 hours of sleep in last 3 days.....only reason I'm still here is watching a movie with my four year old Tristan. "Daddy time" is so much more important to him than my sleep |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 03:01:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Menzo is era neutral. There are rules for running the city as far back as the height of House Do'Urden, or even farther back.
Confirmed today, Ed's Realms will be era neutral as well. It's meant to apply to all manner of timelines.
Neutrality is very good. Era neutrality makes druids very happy because druids get it. They typically only step in to deal with a problem whenever one ethos abuses its "outlooks" and ethos swings and greatly affect the balance. Perhaps Wizards of the Coast should be renamed for the new Realms to Druids of the Coast to better reflect their new Realms outlook (hopefully). Wizards are too fickle anyway. 
The 1e/2e Realms I know and currently host my game in were close enough regarding compatibility that the events and adventures that were made during those eras survived its own RSE without some kind of radical era purge or resulting multi-era fragmentating.
Menzo is an era neutral product, and I really hope products like it becomes the new Realms focus for new Realms products. I want to believe that people want Realmslore they can use anytime, in any era and without fragmentation clones of the same product for 3-4 different eras. 1e Realms had the unique distinction of not having predecessor edition fans that WotC felt obligated to live up to and support, which must be a nice reflection to look back on considering what they have to deal with now. In the end, I think it'll all work out in the wash one way or the other, either with history repeating itself or with a smashing success.
Perhaps WotC should get a Kickstarter going for the new Realms and how Realms content and lore will be written, with plenty of stretch goals.
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I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 03:27:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Menzo is era neutral. There are rules for running the city as far back as the height of House Do'Urden, or even farther back.
Confirmed today, Ed's Realms will be era neutral as well. It's meant to apply to all manner of timelines.
The realms is seeing multi-era support in the form of Brian's Cormyr article, Menzo, Ed's Realms, and now this whole release of the old stuff (with some extras--to be discussed when I write up the seminar).
Does it need to be etched in stone?
Cheers
In short? Yes.
Menzo's edition neutral? Huh. This is the first I've heard of it. I'll swing by a bookstore tomorrow and see if I can't track it down and see what it looks like.
Ed's Realms isn't exactly canon; it's what the Realms originally was, back in the single chef days. I'm really looking forward to it, but consider it more or less a fluke, and not representative of anything else (aside from a series I would love to see continued).
The back catalogue is a good thing as well, but much of it (though by no means all) was already in PDF form for free on the Wizards website, so that decision is only rolling back yet another of the bonehead 4e changes of yanking them in the first place.
In short, they've still got a long way to go before I'm convinced. But I will see if I can track down Menzo and take a look. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 04:15:58
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| No crunch in the Menzo book. Some rules on how to create a Drow House. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 04:23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Varl
The 1e/2e Realms I know and currently host my game in were close enough regarding compatibility that the events and adventures that were made during those eras survived its own RSE without some kind of radical era purge or resulting multi-era fragmentating.
Therein lies the problem of the combination of the Spellplague and 100 year jump. It's not impossible to adapt Plague-era and earlier era materials, but it does require a bit more work (for many places), where as previously everything was virtually plug and play. Even with an aim towards era neutrality, if some of the regions/areas remain as they are, the same situations simply do not apply across eras.
WotC will have to navigate that gap for the neutral products, unless they take steps to synchronize the situations across the two main eras even if they don't reboot or retcon. I suspect the Sundering will shift major portions of the setting back to their original layout, albeit with the difference of the Spellplague's aftermath and the century difference. Then it may work out. I just hope people don't call shenanigans. WotC giveth and WotC taketh back starts to seem very flip-floppy at best, chicken without a head running with scissors at the worst.
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
Perhaps WotC should get a Kickstarter going for the new Realms and how Realms content and lore will be written, with plenty of stretch goals.
Ugh, no, just no. WotC shouldn't need it and neither should we support them in such an endeavor. We know they have the uncanny ability to screw up products with otherwise decent premise and good intentions. I'll put in the money when I can flip through the product in my hand and read a variety of real reviews.
I've backed my share of Kickstarters, often supporting companies/groups/people with a proven record or gambling on newcomers with promise and potential. WotC fits into neither category and deserves neither my support or risk sight unseen. WotC has become that shifty salesman where I have to inspect the merchandise before handing money over. I have to check WotC didn't fill the inside with rocks and call it diamonds.
They have to put their work where their mouth is. When I see a history of products I like, then I might start a preorder list.
One thing that is an instant deal-breaker is if the electronic format back catalog is introduced in a proprietary format. Doubly so if there is some esoteric draconian DRM lockdown on the files I have to sacrifice small animals to in order to open. Triply so if there is an exclusive, subscription-based, pay-to-access viewer or account.
WotC hasn't shown they are a long-term entity when it comes to digital products or even policy (VTT, older PDFs, GSL, reduced RSEs, even loose plans like three books per setting, one setting a year). I need to be reasonably assured that WotC will not change their site access or drop support for some 'Wizards File Format' at the next board meeting with Hasbro executives. If I buy it, I own it, else I will not buy it. I need to be able to read the file for a reasonable number of years (read: a long, long time) down the road.
I have PDFs of gaming stuff from the 2E era (from WotC's own free archives). They have lasted through two editions and will carry on into their third in my possession. They will continue to be of use to me into D&D 6E or 7E or whatever it will be called. These are not lost sales for new products or reformatted materials. The setting, the franchise, gained a fan and kept one for years. It is the only reason I am still spending time on these forums instead of another setting/franchise or another hobby entirely. If I like what I see, I may even start buying new WotC and FR products again.
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Edited by - Dark Wizard on 19 Aug 2012 04:32:13 |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 05:11:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Menzo is era neutral. There are rules for running the city as far back as the height of House Do'Urden, or even farther back.
Confirmed today, Ed's Realms will be era neutral as well. It's meant to apply to all manner of timelines.
The realms is seeing multi-era support in the form of Brian's Cormyr article, Menzo, Ed's Realms, and now this whole release of the old stuff (with some extras--to be discussed when I write up the seminar).
Does it need to be etched in stone?
Cheers
I would like the multi-era support being etched in stone if possible, especially since I like long-travel style adventures.
I'd also like to have Ed's Realms before TSR got ahold of them. It would be awesome.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Forgotten Realms Next: to those concerned
