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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 04:43:21
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With all this talk about WotC trying to bring the Realms back to the way it was when people were excited over it and loving each new product (aka pre-3E days) coupled with the fact that WotC will be releasing all their back catalogs of all editions of D&D, I began to dream a little.
That dream entails MORE PANTHEON books being written.
Personally, I really hope in the future we can see a product like the FR Deity books again. A "Monstrous Pantheons" is sorely needed and I'd love to see detailed write-ups for the Orc, Goblinoid, Draconic, and Giant Pantheons of the Realms. With a final chapter dedicated to a miscellaneous set of monster deities (Aboleth, Beholder, Lycanthrope, Archfey, Gnolls, etc.)
Or, heck, even a monthly article or something. I long to see a cohesive writeup of the draconic deities (was surprised only Null received this kind of write up in the 2E Draconomicon, why didn't the entire pantheon get that kind of write-up?) and giants in particular.
What would really be fun is after a Monstrous Pantheon book, a "Lost Gods" book would be great! Think of a book on write-ups on Murdane, Auppenser, the Untheric Pantheon, etc.
And, of course, after that a "Gods Beyond Faerun" book would be awesome; Maztican, Kara-Tur, Zhakara and even the unknown lands of deities would be nice to read about (Katashaka, Anchrome, Osse).
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 06:12:41
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I would really rather have a very generic outline of the pantheons in the FRCS, and then see the lore piled on in regional books. Lore should focus on regional nuances and interpretations of otherwise continent wide divine entities.
The art director at GenCon seemed to want that sort of regional divine diversity. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 06:29:53
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I think orcs, goblin, giants, etc. should just worship the main deities. Why do we need racial deities?
They hardly released anything for 4th edition so I'm not holding my breath |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 07:05:52
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| I'd prefer a DL style approach to that, personally. Have a core set of deities, but have different regions and races know them by different names and worship them with different customs. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 07:18:10
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| Is Kord worshiped in the realms or is he strictly Greyhawk? If not, I would mind them bringing him over... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 07:25:10
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having seen those books written for 2nd edition and 3rd edition, I'm not sure I'd need such for 5th edition unless it were to get down to nitty, gritty details, like where the individual main temples are now, what militant arms there are to the church, etc...
However, your interest in deities for other races, yeah... basically an update to the 2nd edition monster mythology book would be very welcome, especially if it came with more realms specific information. However, it should be also noted that for some races, they probably do worship human deities. For instance, while Skerrit is a centaur deity, I can also see some centaurs worshipping Lurue and Miellikki. However, I see Skerritt (from monster mythology) possibly attracting OTHER races, such as wemics and hybsils... basically any tauric race that is mammalian. It's literally been 20 years since the monster mythology book was out, so it definitely could use some brushing through, maybe etc... Also, the eladrin court from 3rd edition might be due for some updates compared to the Sylvan Court. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 09:33:55
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| This time I'd rather see books focused on the worshippers, and keep gods in the background |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 15:46:38
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I'm going to outline EXACTLY what I want out of a new source book dealing with the Realms. I'm using the same page count as used in Faiths and Pantheons - 223 total pages.
I think the book below would be useful, not only to those who love the Realms, but anyone interested in running an RPG regardless of the system. It would be an amazing source of ideas and inspiration, and every DM - Realms DM or not - should want to buy it.
Chapter 1: Introduction (7 pages) Describes in very loose terms the power and influence of the gods themselves in the Realms, and the way mortals worship and view the deities. Also describes the worship and influence of non-divine entities (Primordials, Fiends, Celestials, Archfey, etc.), and how that is incorporated into the Realms. All of this is written from the perspective of the way a mortal would view the divine and their cults.
The introduction is the place where we deal with how racial pantheons interact with the main Faerūnian pantheon. Especially what happens in cross-cultural areas such as Waterdeep and Silverymoon.
Also, it should talk about how heresies and the like exist in the Realms, and how this is consistent with deities that are real and can interact (to a degree) with their mortal followers.
Chapter 2: Creating Cults (25 pages) Detailed rules and methods for creating cults in the Realms. This details how to define the type of holdings a cult would have (how many temples, shrines, etc. within a region), the amount of influence they'd have, whether or not they'd have an armed military group defending the faith (templars / paladins / crusaders / militant faithful), the amount of wealth held by the cult, the amount of dedicated faithful in the region (those who'd consider the deity their primary patron), a way to generate historical events, and how a cult might be different depending on the era in which it exists.
Basically, for a good idea of what I'm getting at here; I'm looking for a cult creation system similar to the House Generation system located in A Song of Ice and Fire by Green Ronin. This would allow a DM to generate a cult of their own design in the Realms even if it isn't listed in the book, or it would allow someone not gaming in the Realms to use the system to create cults for their own setting.
It should help establish the cult in the lore, and make it easy for the DM to make it feel like it has always been part of the Realms. It is also a way to get rid of some story ambiguity by saying, Yes, this is exactly how powerful the Church of Bane is in the region, and how many armed mercenaries they're capable of fielding. This gets rid of the decanter of endless wealth / soldiers that is sometimes used in the Realms. (Really? How is it possible the Church of Bane can raise yet another army so soon after the last one was defeated?)
Chapter 3: Cults by Region (30 pages) For obvious reasons, no book can include every cult in the Realms. So I think it's important to have a regional overview of the types of faiths most common to specific regions of the Realms, and their impact on the region. This is the place where we want to talk about, say, the influence of the Cult of Chauntea; because while Chauntea may be an awesome deity and totally deserving of having someone fully flesh out her cult in every single region (as she likely has a strong presence in every single region), it just isn't that useful for a DM.
For obvious reasons, Greater Deities are going to have more influence in a larger number of regions, and demigods will be more focused on specific regions of the Realms, etc. This is also a great place for plot hooks about what might be going on in a specific region with the faithful and their cults.
For an idea of what I'm envisioning here, imagine 2E Forgotten Realms Adventures, Chapter 4: Cities of the Heartlands. Very information dense sections, about a page and a half long each. Very broad strokes are used, mostly talking about the prominent religions in the region - the 3E FRCS under each entry already lists the prominent religions in the countries of the region. This is just an extension of that.
Each of the regions would receive roughly one and a half pages of detail, with some receiving a bit more and some less, with a bit more focus on the Heartlands over some of the more obscure regions (such as the Island Kingdoms, and the Chultan Peninsula). If additional page count is required, it'll probably be needed in this area.
Obviously, this section should be left open enough for a DM (or an author) to come in at a later time and begin establishing their own cults in the region, and give a good idea of how that would influence the political power structure of the region.
Chapter 4: Major Cults of Faerūn (100 pages) The meat of the book is right here. It deals with the most major, interesting, and influential cults of the Realms. In addition to using the cult creation system (chapter 2) to create the cults, there would be a lot of fluff on the cults themselves. The fluff would include the general ethos (or dogma) that the cult follows, the day-to-day activities that it performs within the community, the holy days, the important ceremonies, major centers of worship, the priestly vestments, affiliated orders, and how it ties into the politics of the region / area in which it is located. About twenty or so of these, five pages for each.
Chapter 6: Places of Worship (25 Pages) This section details some of the major cults (though obviously not all) places of worship. This gives us a general overview of what a temple, abbey, and other holy sites might look like in the Realms. Roughly ten of these places, make them fairly diverse, two pages per site, and a half a page for a map of each location (2.5 pages per place of worship).
Chapter 7: Religious Leaders of Faerūn (20 Pages) Some write-ups of prominent religious figures of the Realms, and some hooks to bring them into an adventure or campaign. Give us about twelve of these, roughly two pages each, with some spare room left over for art of each religious figure in their priestly vestments.
Chapter 8: Holy Relics of Faerūn (10 Pages) Some fluff about some holy relics of the various cults. Give us about twenty or so of these, two per page. Each would have some brief fluff written about it, some art, and a few ways to hook it into an adventure or campaign.
Finally, this leaves 6 pages spare for where it is needed to fill things out in more detail.
Now WotC can't say that I didn't tell them exactly what I wanted.  |
Edited by - Aldrick on 07 Sep 2012 15:47:40 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 20:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I'd prefer a DL style approach to that, personally. Have a core set of deities, but have different regions and races know them by different names and worship them with different customs.
I like this approach.
I may do something similiar the next time I run a game using FR.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 20:49:29
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I'd prefer an ongoing series of articles (by various authors) detailing the day-to-day activities of the churches, with details on services, sacred relics, famous faithful, important historical events, major temples, etc, etc.
I want to know what these very different priesthoods do in each community to stay viable - what do they do for the common folk. Religion has to offer something - i need to know what that is.
For instance, Kelemvor's temples double as funery homes. Waukeen's temples double as banks, Mytsra temples double as magic schools, Oghma's temples as schools, Mask's temples as thieves' guilds, Bhaals temples as Assassins guilds, etc, etc, etc.
Even a temple to Umberlee should have a purpose, even if its just a small shrine in the corner of a 'nautical supply shop'.
I'm done with the gods themselves. I need info on people, because thats what I am interested in, and what I will use at my table. Why would anyone want to cheapen their players abilities by bandying gods around in front of them? We already know more about them then we should, now I want to ask them (the deities), "what have you done for me lately?" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Sep 2012 20:50:14 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 20:53:55
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| They're rereleasing all the past books as pdfs. Some of these products will be expanded with extra content. like Avatars & faiths and Powers & Pantheons, Demihuman Deities as pdfs, so while not add the new content to these so they don't have to repeat themselves as much. Update them for 5e. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:02:53
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I'd kinda like to see a twice-monthly series, each article focusing on the dogma, activities, vestments, rituals, organizations, etc., of a different deity. Give it two years, then collect all those (edited and expanded upon) into one big gods book.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:06:15
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I have a tangential question:
In canon, do gods currently gain power from the numbers of their worshippers?
If so, shouldn't Cyric be pretty weak, given that only a fairly small number of people would have any reason to worship him? He might drop to lesser god status. Is that why he remains imprisoned in the Supreme Throne now? Too weak from lack of worship to break free?
If power comes from worshippers, then Chauntea's greater power staus makes a lot of sense. Even assuming magical help (likely from Chauntea's spellcasting clergy) here must be millions of farmers working in order to feed all the people in many cities and towns. Imagine how much land has to be under cultivation and how many rural folk must toil to feed the teeming masses of Calimport and Waterdeep.
How will the next version of the setting deal with this?
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 07 Sep 2012 21:07:27 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:20:57
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Whether gods' power is still tied to "worship" post-Era of Upheaval or not I can't say. And I don't know if WotC will even address that, seeing as the emphasis at this point is to make divinity less transparent and make the gods more mysterious.
Even when it was tied to it, though, I don't know if "worshiper" is really the right term. It's more like, whether and how many mortals have strong feelings about you. They might love you, worship you, and seek to advance your causes. On the flipside, they might fear, respect, or actively work against you. The stronger and more plentiful the emotional investiture in your divinity, the more powerful you are.
That's how I interpret it, anyway.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 21:37:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Whether gods' power is still tied to "worship" post-Era of Upheaval or not I can't say. And I don't know if WotC will even address that, seeing as the emphasis at this point is to make divinity less transparent and make the gods more mysterious.
Even when it was tied to it, though, I don't know if "worshiper" is really the right term. It's more like, whether and how many mortals have strong feelings about you. They might love you, worship you, and seek to advance your causes. On the flipside, they might fear, respect, or actively work against you. The stronger and more plentiful the emotional investiture in your divinity, the more powerful you are.
That's how I interpret it, anyway.
Cheers
All that makes sense, sure.
If mortals's strong emotions are a factor in the strength of the gods, then evil powers could gain strength from the fear and loathing they inspire.
I agree that a more mysterious approach would be best in the new sources. I don't care about stats for avatars (although I can see why some guys would like such stats). |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2012 : 22:45:56
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I think people have misinterpreted what I was trying to suggest.
The Forgotten Realms deity books, all 3, are outstanding in that they do not just solely concentrate on a deity, but also their churches, dogma, priests and servants, adventuring garb, etc. (and even offer a little "crunch" like new spells each faith has developed and a "kit/prestige class" associated with the faith).
Clearly, the projects were not complete. I pointed out we're missing the Monstrous Deities, Beyond Faerun Deities, and (what I'd like to call) the Lost Deities.
I am against melding deities into one another. In some cases, yes, it works. For example, the goliath pantheon canon-wise, are all just aspects of some members of the Faerunian pantheon. In others, like with the orc, goblinoids, kobolds, dragons, beholders, aboleths, illithids, I think it's fair they get a write-up. But doing something like "Talos is really Gruumsh" is just plain stupid.
I'd love to see a Faiths&Avatars write-up of Annam or Grolantor or Lendys or Asgorath/Io, for example.
One good reason I am against having this is because no real dragon would worship Bane, for example. Bane is beneath it. A dragon will, however, find reverence in a draconic deity. The same would go for giants and goblinoids and other exotic creatures. I just don't see an illithid kneeling in service to, say, Auppenser. Ilsensine will be that illithid's calling and an Ilsensine write-up styled like Faiths&Avatars would be cool.
I guess what I am saying is I would like to see the "Faiths&Avatars" product lineup continue from where it left off. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 06:45:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'd kinda like to see a twice-monthly series, each article focusing on the dogma, activities, vestments, rituals, organizations, etc., of a different deity. Give it two years, then collect all those (edited and expanded upon) into one big gods book.
Thats perfect.
I find that oft-times when I write something, and then revisit it a year or two later, I find there are things I would have 'liked to do differently'. Your format concept makes that possible - we get the first draft, ready to use, and later we get a cleaned-up version (with all the errata/changes). Because you know as time goes on, and more and more churches are detailed, you are going to want to go back and tweak related things (like, "damn! I wish I had saved that cool bit for Shar...").
Crap... I think we are already planning 5.5e  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 06:46:23 |
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Faiths&Avatar-styled Pantheons again
