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Originally posted by sleyvas

I don't necessarily see demons sitting around on their home plane running around killing each other, because I do see them being concerned with self preservation....

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The moderately powered demons are also more intelligent than the average human, and therefore, it should be surmised that they've spent a decent amount of their spare time actually studying SOMEHOW (it may not be reading a book... it may be through talking with other beings). Now, bearded and chain devils are pretty dumb, but I'd imagine they spend a lot of their time just physically training in hopes that they'll advance.

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Originally posted by Dennis


I think 'safety in numbers' hardly applies. Acquiring power is more like it. Ever wonder how a lowly demon could manage to rise and become a general? They hardly ally. They backstab each other. That's their nature.

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Originally posted by jordanz

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Originally posted by sleyvas

I don't necessarily see demons sitting around on their home plane running around killing each other, because I do see them being concerned with self preservation....

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But here is the thing.. the abyss is supposedly the ultimate embodiment of Chaos and Evil. To me that would almost have to entail roving hordes of demons bent on destruction. The only thing that would temper this would be the wrath of a particularly powerful demon... Ofcourse I could be wrong, are there any novels that give a "day in the life view" of the Abyss?

I read "Elminster in Hell" and Hell seemed pretty lethal even with it's Lawful tendencies...

I do recall Gary Gygax's rendition of the abyss from his Gord Novels and it was pretty much as I described above.

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The moderately powered demons are also more intelligent than the average human, and therefore, it should be surmised that they've spent a decent amount of their spare time actually studying SOMEHOW (it may not be reading a book... it may be through talking with other beings). Now, bearded and chain devils are pretty dumb, but I'd imagine they spend a lot of their time just physically training in hopes that they'll advance.

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Yeah but how do they advance? Basically the goal is to change into a more powerful type of fiend, correct?I thought it was through committing acts of evil over long periods of time... In the meantime they still have to survive day to day in the most dangerous environment in the multiverse.

I suppose another option would be to acquire power through powerful magic and weapons however I would expect that it would require a certain level of power not to have their items taken by more powerful fiends....

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Originally posted by jordanz
Yeah but how do they advance? Basically the goal is to change into a more powerful type of fiend, correct?I thought it was through committing acts of evil over long periods of time... In the meantime they still have to survive day to day in the most dangerous environment in the multiverse.

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Originally posted by Thauranil

In all the novels I have read lower level demons were treated as worthless scum by their superiors , allowed to exist only as long as they are useful and that's if their boss doesn't decide to eviscerate them on a whim.
So the best way for a lower level demon to survive would not be to attach themselves to a stronger demon but rather lay low and slowly amass power on their own.
Admittedly considering the nature of demons finding one with the patience and intelligence to carry out this strategy would be rather difficult.

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Originally posted by Shemmy

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Originally posted by jordanz
Yeah but how do they advance? Basically the goal is to change into a more powerful type of fiend, correct?I thought it was through committing acts of evil over long periods of time... In the meantime they still have to survive day to day in the most dangerous environment in the multiverse.

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One of the best ways that I've heard the Abyss described is as a "Darwinian Nightmare". The plane itself spawns fiends from itself by the uncountable millions per second, while the same number burst from larval mortal souls like insects from overripe fruit. At the same time it spawns them, they perish at each others hands, other creatures, or simply the environment. And over time the best emerge from out of that soup of blood and sin, rising up into higher forms, and at each stage the same thing occurs, sparing no type not even the Abyssal lords.

Likewise with Hell, far from being a survival of the fittest, Hell operates like a machine, churning out fiends like an industrial process hybridized with a genocidal dictatorship. Strength is tooled, milled, stamped, and indoctrinated with brutal, bloody efficiency but at the same time the gears aren't perfect. Just like how the evolutionary madness of the Abyss allows weakness to slip in by random chaotic chance, so too can corruption allow weakness to rise up the ranks as the ministries of the Dark 8 jockey for power against the will of the diabolic nobles and the Lords of the 9, all ultimately answering to Asmodeus himself.

The yugoloths are a bit different with their paradoxical dichotomy of utter mercenary selishness and slavish, godless quasi-religious devotion to universal Evil and the misery of all things. Likewise Pathfinder's daemons are their own unique thing versus the classic CE and LE examples.

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Would there be inter-group murder? Yes. Would it be a constant thing for survival? Not so much. They don't need to eat, so comfort and entertainment are their driving goals. The environment may drive them out of previous areas of comfort and into new ones, causing conflict. Boredom may lead them to torture lesser fiends... which may lead lesser fiends to swarm up and kill those who took particular interest in torturing their friends, etc... However, so many books show it as demon attacking demon constantly, and I don't see it that way. Just because they're chaotic doesn't mean they want to kill.... it just means they want to do their own thing... I do see them sitting on plane X and considering raiding plane Y and trying to get other demons to go along with them. Now, introduce an outsider into the situation, and they probably get all hot and bothered.

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Originally posted by jordanz

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Originally posted by sleyvas


Would there be inter-group murder? Yes. Would it be a constant thing for survival? Not so much. They don't need to eat, so comfort and entertainment are their driving goals. The environment may drive them out of previous areas of comfort and into new ones, causing conflict. Boredom may lead them to torture lesser fiends... which may lead lesser fiends to swarm up and kill those who took particular interest in torturing their friends, etc... However, so many books show it as demon attacking demon constantly, and I don't see it that way. Just because they're chaotic doesn't mean they want to kill.... it just means they want to do their own thing... I do see them sitting on plane X and considering raiding plane Y and trying to get other demons to go along with them. Now, introduce an outsider into the situation, and they probably get all hot and bothered.

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IMO you just described the old Slaadi (before they turned into fiends) mentality. Chaotic, selfish, but not necessary evil. Demons in my interpretation are just as chaotic but with an incredibly evil bent. So I would think "doing their own thing" would have to result in the direct or indirect harm to anyone around them as long as they could get away with it. Now that "get away" with it part is tricky but the point is the motivation to commit evil acts is built in - or so I thought...

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Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, see, I've heard this example, and it sounds cool. But then you're also told that demons and devils are created from the souls of beings that sold their souls, or were tricked into giving up their humanity, some are souls that are stolen by demons/devils from the fugue plane, or something similar. Meanwhile, most souls go to the god that they worshipped after death. So, I can't see millions being created per second, unless one soul can spawn hundreds if not thousands of demons/devils. Also, if a demon/devil is killed on the outer plane from which it spawned... its dead.

Now, this may bring up a possibility now that I think on it. Does it matter which layer of the nine hells or abyss a demon is on as to whether it dies permanently? Might that be a reason for the multiple layers (i.e. you die, you respawn).

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Thauranil

In all the novels I have read lower level demons were treated as worthless scum by their superiors , allowed to exist only as long as they are useful and that's if their boss doesn't decide to eviscerate them on a whim.
So the best way for a lower level demon to survive would not be to attach themselves to a stronger demon but rather lay low and slowly amass power on their own.
Admittedly considering the nature of demons finding one with the patience and intelligence to carry out this strategy would be rather difficult.

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Leading to my earlier intimation that the more powerful demons are also the more intelligent ones. The fool ones tend to die, and the intelligent survive to become more powerful (though admittedly, probably a lot of smart ones die, and probably a few dumb but brutishly powerful ones survive too).

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Originally posted by Shemmy

Demons can be created from mortal souls, but many are just birthed spontaneously from the Abyss itself. Devils on the other hand require mortal souls to create (albeit there's lower turnover on their end since they aren't brutally fighting themselves just as much as anything else which is what the Abyss does). Also, the rate of creation is going to be staggering since the planes are each going to be drawing upon the souls of uncountable worlds from the material plane, not just one world or a handful of them - the material plane is infinite and in theory so are the souls they siphon off.

As far as perma death - the rules for that have varied wildly by editions. The most complex and detailed version came from 2e's 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' from the Planescape line. With demons at least even if they die and have their essence devoured by the Abyss, while they as an individual might be perma dead, the plane is going to recycle that essence into another or a dozen or a hundred thousand fiends in whole or piecemeal. Not a demon, but when a yugoloth dies for good, a new mezzoloth is immediately spawned from one or two or three locations. Devils (baatezu in specific) it's a bit more tricky since they're not 100% true natives of their own native plane (being interlopers who fell to LE) and thus they require mortal souls rather than having the whole spontaneous creation from the plane thing going on - but they have their own rules regarding death and possible return depending on where and how killed.

Note that I'm not using the 4e mythology in any of my statements since in some cases it's off in left field different compared to 1e/2e/3e in many cases, or doesn't address the topics.

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