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Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 02:50:25
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I've looked at El's pictures at the FR wiki. On some of them Elminster looks like he could woo my seventy-year-old grandma. On the other hand his lover Simbul looks like she is still fairly young woman (about my age). Yeah, I know that they are both veeery old, but when I imagine them together it still gives me a creepy feeling. He looks like he could be her grandpa.
I think that they should have done El younger or Simbul older.
I'havn't read all Elminster book, only the first ones. Is it all as creepy as it seems?
Or when they are together El transforms himself into a young man?
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 03:00:34
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| I don't think it's creepy at all. All of the Chosen take on forms that they feel most comfortable with. For Elminster that's a (more or less) dignified old man. He can become younger if he wants to, but he generally doesn't want to, and the Simbul loves him as he is (as corny as that sounds). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:14:21
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You know what's a wee bit creepier? He had relations with one of the Simbul's sisters. Dragon #110, page 34. Storm Silverhand was his apprentice and lover. He was also the Simbul's teacher...
I wonder if the 'Seven Sisters' were actually all supposed to be sisters at that point, or if Ed Greenwood added some connections later. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:26:03
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| They've been sisters from the beginning, AFAIK. And she's not the only one, either. He's been both father-figure, mentor, and lover of several of them, at various times, if memory serves. Maybe he's like a "sugar-daddy" in certain respects- not that there's anything wrong with that, if the feelings are both mutual and genuine. *shrugs* |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:27:07
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He raised at least three of them. I try not to think about that over-much.
Anyhow, El and the rest of the Chosen see beyond the material world - they can see the real person beneath (the soul). What they see is how the person might picture themselves - young, at the prime of life and vigor. In that 'higher world' the Chosen live in, Elminster might look younger then the Simbul. They see what we do not.
In the 'magical spectrum', Elminster - the hawk-nosed, craggy old buzzard - might be as beautiful as any archangel. This is what Mystra also sees. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 05:28:01 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:37:44
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Yeah, it's still kind of creepy.
Not Alustriel-level creepy, of course.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 06:07:52
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LOL...
A-LUST-riel. 
Look at it this way, Ed has stated that in his original Realms, magic = Life. Life comes from procreation. That means with all that 'love-making' going on, they're just promoting Mystra's portfolio.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 06:08:48 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 07:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LOL...
A-LUST-riel.
Look at it this way, Ed has stated that in his original Realms, magic = Life. Life comes from procreation. That means with all that 'love-making' going on, they're just promoting Mystra's portfolio.
Heh.
Not my cup of tea, but if people like that sort of thing they should buy the books that contain such stuff.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 14:38:39
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| Something else to consider: when you have lived for literally centuries, and seen entire kingdoms crumble to dust and be forgotten, you are of course going to be drawn to someone with similar experiences, and someone who isn't going to grow old and die on you. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 15:40:22
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| When reading this I can't help but think of half-elves. If the thinking is that El and the Simbul's relationship is creepy because of their age difference, every elf/human relationship is similarly creepy. If the thinking is instead that it's creepy because he looks old while she looks young, then in my opinion that's more shallow than either of them are. They aren't together because of looks, in my opinion they are together because they love who each other is, not what each other looks like(which is at least as corny as Hoondatha's statement). Also, while I do see the "raised by El" thing as a bit creepy, that seems like it would be a common problem with long lived races. Elves especially who live by humans would likely know a human man or woman from when they were kids, as was the case with Driz'zt and Cattie-Brie for one example. It's hard to apply our ways of thinking to a situation like that since we really have nothing at all similar in the real world. |
Edited by - idilippy on 08 Sep 2012 15:41:30 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 17:38:13
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Mirt married a girl he rescued and raised himself, think of half-dragons produced by procreation between dragons who live even longer than elves and other creatures who are not even close to living as long as them and there is always the offpsring of planar and gods beings frolicking with mortals.
I do not see it as creepy but merely part of how things are. If it wasnŽt for love iŽd know that the Simbul is quite powerfull herself iŽd say she is with him because power may appeal to some people and they hope to gain from it, may it by achieving power aswell or having security from dangers that may haunt you. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 18:05:26
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One thing to remember ...living that long change sweat attracts you to another.
They have bothe( El and The Simbul) outlived many, many cherished loved ones. Had countless heartbreaks watching their love age, wither and die....only to go on, and on.
There would be a point,which they both have more than reached, that only another who was equally long lived would attract you...if only to spare you the grief from outliving many others.....they are finding a way to be happy, while limiting their grief.
Nothing creepy there, just a logical, inevitable solution. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 19:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
You know what's a wee bit creepier? He had relations with one of the Simbul's sisters. Dragon #110, page 34. Storm Silverhand was his apprentice [i]and lover.
Actually, many years ago, in the early 2000's, I asked Ed about that and he answered me on the mailing list that Storm and Elminster have never had intercourse with each other.
Found it: http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0310c&L=realms-l&D=1&F=&S=&P=3524 |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 08 Sep 2012 19:29:45 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 19:21:41
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| So it was a platonical love? |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 19:35:08
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It was a platonic retcon, sounds like.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 20:34:21
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
It was a platonic retcon, sounds like.
It's not a retcon if it was never stated otherwise. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 20:42:09
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From the new series, I gather that Storm wanted more, but Elminster (nicely) brushed her advances aside.
Also, people who can literally become avatars of themselves and enter 'The Weave' (which is canon - see the Evermeet novel, amongst others) can 'make love' on an entirely non-physical level. I really doubt Mystra is making a sweaty meat-bag avatar for El to hump - what they do is a more 'spiritual' thing.
IMO, of course. Thats just how I see it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 20:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
It was a platonic retcon, sounds like.
It's not a retcon if it was never stated otherwise.
Dragon # 110 states that they were lovers.
Sure, you could rely on a rarely used or carefully parsed definition to exclude a sexual relationship, but I think that's missing the point. It's pretty clear what he meant. He could have written 'close friends' if that is what he meant.
I don't care if Ed Greenwood retcons this kind of stuff, though. Retcon isn't a dirty word for me. He should do as he likes with his fictional creations.
In the context of running the game, which is what matters to me, I don't need to use these NPCs. They could vanish-- 'poof'--and the setting would be playable and fun all the same. Thus, minor details about characters I may not even wish to use aren't important to me as a DM. I only mentioned it because it was a strange little piece of information, in light of later stuff Ed has added or revealed about his characters.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 08 Sep 2012 20:48:38 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 21:59:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From the new series, I gather that Storm wanted more, but Elminster (nicely) brushed her advances aside.
Also, people who can literally become avatars of themselves and enter 'The Weave' (which is canon - see the Evermeet novel, amongst others) can 'make love' on an entirely non-physical level. I really doubt Mystra is making a sweaty meat-bag avatar for El to hump - what they do is a more 'spiritual' thing.
IMO, of course. Thats just how I see it.
I do think she was as gross as all that...but El did indeed walk alongside and physically make it with a flesh and blood Avatar for a long long stretch of time
Wasnt it Myrjala Darkeyes? So I guess you missed a meatbag?
Ed: sp |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 08 Sep 2012 22:02:08 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 23:57:23
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For some reason, I simply do not count that particular avatar, and that was also a different situation (it was before he became her Chosen).
We have Midnight, we have that 'special girl' that the power of Mystryl entered when Karsus fell, and we also have another 'flesh & blood' incarnation of Mystra, which was captured by Sharens (it was in one of the first Elminster books - maybe Temptation?)
I think these may all be 'one & the same' - that Mystra maintains a 'mortal shell' for whatever reason (perhaps like a USB drive she can 'plugin' and reset her interface?) I can't quite place my finger on all of that, but there is some reason why Mystra/Mystryl MUST keep a tether to mortality, and why there is always one of these 'meat bags' around.
But that has nothing to do with the 'love making' her and El do now that he is Chosen - I think that takes place within The Weave, and is far more spiritual. One might even suggest that 'religious ecstasy' (rapture) is actually a form of orgasm.
So perhaps this 'spiritual loving' is more like communing on a very deep level, one that we can barely understand (its like Elven communion, which is closely related). Touching intimately may be the best way to establish the report, but that is just to get things started, and is almost like 'spiritual foreplay'.
As I said, so many females in Elminster's life may fall in love with him because he has a 'beautiful soul' - they no longer even see the shell he wears on the outside. And to take this a step further, I truly doubt this is just limited to females. There may be a very good reason why Vangerdehast is so damn uncomfortable around the man. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2012 23:59:37 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 01:44:18
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Storm and (foster father) Elminster. Never liked that pair. Though incest or near-incest is something to be expected from Ed's fiction, FR or non-FR. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Sep 2012 01:45:14 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 02:51:05
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Sources, please?
That's a pretty strong comment to make, if you can't back it up.
Incest where in Ed's non-FR fiction, exactly?
Or for that matter, in his FR fiction (Mirt was Asper's guardian, not blood kin, and she chose him when of age, and Elminster is not blood-related to any of the Seven).
Reads like a gratuitous slap to me. 
BB |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 03:27:15
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Falconfar. Between a brother and a sister (whose names escape me). The sex scene was even shown.
Why on Toril does it sound like a slap? Unless you view incest as something WRONG and DISGUSTING? [And for the record, I don't.] Given the time and context where those instances of incest occurred, it's fairly understandable. But just because something like incest can be justified does not mean it wouldn't invite dislike from other people. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 Sep 2012 03:33:17 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 03:46:12
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I know on some level I should not reply, social norms of FR are not the social norms of Earth.
The society or at least parts of them are very liberated as to whom the kiss and join with. Males with males, females with females, and yes family with family. I am not sure it was a selling factor, in fact I suspect it was not. It though is part of culture that occurs.
The part I dread most, in RW history there are examples of incest expected as part of ruling, often occurred even when it was not. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 03:49:55
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Whoops! Clean forgot about that evil family in Falconfar. My apologies, Dennis. Point taken.
BB |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 19:47:25
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Speaking of the word "lovers," I will say that while we often interpret that word to mean that a couple engages in sexual congress, that's only one of four definitions of the word (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lover). To me, the primary implication of the word is emotional intimacy (or a desire for it), which may or may not be sexual.
In my Realms work, Lady Ilira and Lady Lorien Dawnbringer were "lovers" for some years in the 1470s, but they never so much as touched one another flesh-to-flesh (mostly because they couldn't). Which is not to imply nothing ever happened, but it supports the concept of being a "lover" in the Realms without actually doing the horizontal shuffle.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 19:57:32
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I see the issue with the wording may be that nowadays the majority of people put being in love with someboday equal to having sexual intercourse.
Given the fact that Elminster does have a way with women and the way it was worded in the Dragon text makes one immediatly think: "Yes, they shared the bed."
Mind you non native speakers or people who do not may have a higher education in the english language and are not well written will first think of the sex and then of the emotional intimacy because think of it. Would you say that your a lover with somebody if the feeling is just on a emotional level or would you use it when your having physical intercourse with the person?
No need to out yourself though Mr. de Bie, it is just a theoretical question |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 09 Sep 2012 19:58:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 20:05:04
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Define 'sexual intercourse'. If 'making love' means the act of procreation, then doesn't that mean gay people can't be lovers?
You see, it all depends upon your definition of various things.
I've 'made love' plenty of times (to women LOL), but I rarely engage in normal intercourse. I actually don't enjoy it that much (YES, I just admitted that on a public forum). There are much more intimate things I'd prefer to do with a partner; sometimes 'snuggling' is at the top of the list (sometimes). I would consider all of those women 'lovers', and yet the list of women I had intercourse with is very short. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 20:16:36
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I would say in this case "sexual intercourse" is physical contact in case of either procreation or in case your of equal gender extreme intimacy, not just hugs and "snuggling".
Though i think this drifts now in philosofical debates and i can see Mr. Freud looking around the corner.
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The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 05:09:04
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@MT: TMI much? 
@Lord Bane: Without question, that's the automatic association that I put in my head. "Lovers" means "people who have sex." But that isn't necessarily the intended meaning of labeling people as "lovers." The only common denominator to the various definitions seems to be the "love" component.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Creepy pairing...
