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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 06:01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@MT: TMI much? 
@Lord Bane: Without question, that's the automatic association that I put in my head. "Lovers" means "people who have sex." But that isn't necessarily the intended meaning of labeling people as "lovers." The only common denominator to the various definitions seems to be the "love" component.
Cheers
Exactly. Erik Scott de Bie and I are also lovers, because we share our intimate feelings for the Realms on this forum, and I "love component" his Neverwinter book. |
Edited by - The Hidden Lord on 10 Sep 2012 06:46:06 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 06:40:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@MT: TMI much?
@Lord Bane: Without question, that's the automatic association that I put in my head. "Lovers" means "people who have sex." But that isn't necessarily the intended meaning of labeling people as "lovers." The only common denominator to the various definitions seems to be the "love" component.
Cheers
I'm still pretty sure EG retconned it.
Or maybe he decided that his language in the Dragon article was confusing, so he felt the need to clarify?
Then again…
The article isn't necessarily accurate and correct in all respects. Ed Greenwood is telling the reader about Elminster. He uses a device that he has often used,an imaginary meeting with the character. Elminster doesn't state 'Yeah, I bagged Storm Silverhand." Grewnood, after the 'interview', relates that Elminster and Storm were lovers as part of an incomplete biography. The bio contains a number of questions, points of speculation, rumors, and conjectures. That left Greenwood room to alter or rework stuff in the future.
Something I like about AD&D 1E FR was that Greenwood (and I suppose Grubb?) make good use of a subjective, narrative style in a lot of the text. That approach leaves more room for interpretation than an objective, fact-based, it-is-just-so sort of approach. Instead of loads of ‘hard facts’ we get enough facts to provide a good framework and then a lot of rumors, stories, suggestions, possibilities, etc. It is a balance of objective and subjective information. No ‘facts’ and all narrative isn’t a game setting but a writer’s working list; while all facts and no narrative is playable but likely to seem boring and rigid.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 10 Sep 2012 06:43:47 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 15:30:38
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@HL: We are indeed lovers, though not of each other. We have a mutual love of the Realms. This is the "devotee" definition. If the text in question had said "Storm and Elminster were both lovers of Mystra," then it would be the same definition being used.
@CM: Agreed. A balance between fact and mystery is optimal.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Gabrielle_H
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 17:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Exactly. Erik Scott de Bie and I are also lovers, because we share our intimate feelings for the Realms on this forum, and I "love component" his Neverwinter book.
Is it suddenly warm in this thread? *fan fan fan*
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Gabrielle Harbowy, scribe and editrix
http://www.gabrielle-edits.com
twitter: @gabrielle_h |
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Malcolm
Learned Scribe
242 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 17:42:04
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combatmedic, re. Ed's DRAGON 110 article: we always have to remember that editors stand between a writer and the reader, changing a word here and a phrase there, sometimes extrapolating/"punching up" and sometimes chopping words or sentences or entire paragraphs. What appeared in DRAGON 110 may not have been Ed's original wording, but someone's changes.
I think we all sometimes forget that, and use the word "retcon" a little too quickly.
Ed was just a freelancer when writing for DRAGON, albeit a trusted and respected one, never a staffer. He wasn't onstage to defend his prose, didn't get to "see and second guess" changes, and doesn't have a veto over edits. As he has said many times.
Although everyone should get edited, I think a lot of small harms have been done to the Realms over the years by all sorts of people, making little editorial changes to Ed without knowing the bigger picture Ed sees.
I'd say he corrected, in this case, rather than retconning. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 19:50:02
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I wouldn't broaden my definition to 'people who love the same thing'.
When that 'thing' is another person (and even sometimes when its not), usually the exact opposite emotion is engendered.
I believe a certain level of intimacy need be involved, although not necessarily sex (in the procreative fashion). I also think sex has to be a possibility, even if not actually performed... but I think I may be trying to define it a bit too precisely now. By the same token, 'sex' can be performed without the people being lovers.
Also, in a fantasy setting, the definition tends to broaden regardless. I don't think you would call two Orcs who 'mate for life' lovers, but you might use that term on Elves who have been extremely 'close' for centuries, regardless of what their physical relationship might be.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@MT: TMI much?
I hide nothing from no-one.
Secrets are like weapons - they can be turned against you.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 21:42:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Gabrielle_H
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Exactly. Erik Scott de Bie and I are also lovers, because we share our intimate feelings for the Realms on this forum, and I "love component" his Neverwinter book.
Is it suddenly warm in this thread? *fan fan fan*
Since you and most scribes here Love Ed...your list of Lovers just exploded |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 23:23:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Gabrielle_H
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Exactly. Erik Scott de Bie and I are also lovers, because we share our intimate feelings for the Realms on this forum, and I "love component" his Neverwinter book.
Is it suddenly warm in this thread? *fan fan fan*
Since you and most scribes here Love Ed...your list of Lovers just exploded
I say this with absolute confidence in my own sexuality: Ed is a man who definitely inspires love.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 23:49:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm
combatmedic, re. Ed's DRAGON 110 article: we always have to remember that editors stand between a writer and the reader, changing a word here and a phrase there, sometimes extrapolating/"punching up" and sometimes chopping words or sentences or entire paragraphs. What appeared in DRAGON 110 may not have been Ed's original wording, but someone's changes.
I think we all sometimes forget that, and use the word "retcon" a little too quickly.
Ed was just a freelancer when writing for DRAGON, albeit a trusted and respected one, never a staffer. He wasn't onstage to defend his prose, didn't get to "see and second guess" changes, and doesn't have a veto over edits. As he has said many times.
Although everyone should get edited, I think a lot of small harms have been done to the Realms over the years by all sorts of people, making little editorial changes to Ed without knowing the bigger picture Ed sees.
I'd say he corrected, in this case, rather than retconning.
Maybe so, but I'm going to doubt that unless Ed Greenwood sends me a FB message telling me otherwise.
Like I said before, he may have simply changed his mind. 'Retcon' isn't a dirty word for me. It's not as if we are talking about a major setting change
"There were always three moons made of cheese orbiting Abeir-Toril, those earlier notes regarding Selune were messed up by the editors..." |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 01:54:56
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Expecting a personal FB message from Ed on a somewhat minor point might be expecting a little much. Not because he's above doing that, but only because he's a VERY busy man.
Why not go ask him in his Ask Ed thread? There, no question is too big or too small.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 02:37:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Expecting a personal FB message from Ed on a somewhat minor point might be expecting a little much. Not because he's above doing that, but only because he's a VERY busy man.
Why not go ask him in his Ask Ed thread? There, no question is too big or too small.
Cheers
Malcolm had the question, not I. He wondered about whether Ed had simply corrected something that an editor had changed in the ‘All About Elminster’ article.
The secondary question of whether such a small correction would constitute a retcon might be interesting to a canonista. I find it just interesting enough to say ‘meh, looks like a wee retcon’ and move on.
If I were going to take up Greenwood’s time with questions, there are a lot of other things I'd ask way before Elminster's private life came into the discussion.
Hmmm…I may give him some other questions…
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 02:46:20
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Editors changing words and even whole concepts happens quite often depending on the work or publication.
Neither is it strange for the author deciding at a later time to separate a single character into two more distinct characters. Or for accidentally leaving a line concerning another character in this write-up. It happens, it's not a bad thing. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2513 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 14:48:13
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
He was also the Simbul's teacher...
He was "teacher" to all later Chosen for a time. In "Elminster in Hell", IIRC, tthere was a flashback of how he met Simbul. That was already after she saw Red Wizard in every shadow and got a reputation for this. So they started with fighting a little.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 17:25:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Gabrielle_H
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Exactly. Erik Scott de Bie and I are also lovers, because we share our intimate feelings for the Realms on this forum, and I "love component" his Neverwinter book.
Is it suddenly warm in this thread? *fan fan fan*
Since you and most scribes here Love Ed...your list of Lovers just exploded
I say this with absolute confidence in my own sexuality: Ed is a man who definitely inspires love.
QFT
He is the very first man (that I barely know) that I asked for a hug. A handshake from Ed just didn't cut it, IMO. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Sep 2012 18:11:38 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 18:11:33
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| Was it a manly hug? |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 18:12:40
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Yes it was.
Just long enough without being uncomfortable (not one of those weird 'drunk friend at the bar' hugs).
EDIT: And BTW, just to accentuate the point of my bringing this up - I am one of those people that HATES to be touched. It was a HUGE problem for me when I was younger (try dating...), and I am still very uncomfortable touching anyone but my children (even as a child, I couldn't stand parents of grandparents touching me). Me touching anyone is a really big deal - I actually have anxiety attacks when I have to attend funerals (yeah, I know, I sound a bit nuts...)
So my point is, me asking Ed for a hug is WAY out of character for me. The man just has a way of putting you at complete ease. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Sep 2012 18:17:40 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 21:23:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
Was it a manly hug?
Well knowing Ed, it was just a good ole hug....a thanks alot, I really appreciate you type of hug suitable for any and all genders |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2012 : 22:35:25
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| Wow- so much love in this thread.... LOL!! I'd say that my definition of "lovers" falls somehere between the sex- def and the "just VERY close snuggly" def. I've dated only a few people in my life, and of those few, I'd only call two of them lovers- my hubby, and the young man I dated before him, with whom I shared some very intimate physical contact, but no sex. (We were physically together for only a week, and the rest of the relationship was carried out over long distance, but the feelings were still there.) So it depends on the people invovled and the level of trust and closeness, I thnik. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Creepy pairing...
