| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 11:06:09
|
Wondering fro long time already, how big the overall population of different humanoid races, especially the evil ones, in the realms wouldbe.
I would go as far as saying that certain of them, like goblins, kobolds and the likes surely can match human population levels or even top them.
Gnolls, Hobgoblins or orcs etc. reach approx. 50-70% of human population levels, for the same reasons.
the reason why they are not obvious is, most of them are in regions where either no humans dwell to report it ( mountains, wastelands etc. ) or they live in the underdark.
They can maintain these high numbers, for they are able to sustain themselves with MUCH less effort than humans, being more resistant to disease and other human weaknesses.
Exception here might be gnolls, since they live mainly of flesh, which is much harder to get by.
looking forward as always to your opinions.
|
|
|
Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 07:21:59
|
| really noone on this? |
 |
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 13:22:26
|
I think taht some species with high birthrates and shorter lifespans such as kobolds would definitely outnumber humans.
I believe that in some Drizzt novels there was a reference to untold thousands living underneath the caverns of Menzoberranzan, possibly subsisting on fungus and algae.
Also with the rise of a stable orcish kingdom i.e. Many Arrows the Orcish population must surely be on the rise as their excess population was earlier expended in constant battle which is no longer an option. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 13:44:12
|
| There is never an answer for this, it depends on time period as much as census takers often never return *wink*. From time to time an estimate or a guideline is offered in source books or novels about population estimates of a region. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4260 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 14:12:47
|
I think it would be a grave error to think that any particular humanoid group outnumbers humanity. It is even stated rather bluntly that humans outnumber all other races in several books.
Instead, I could easily see humans being outnumbered in certain areas only. Humanoids would be most numerous only in areas not already dominated by humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes and such.
In lands such as Thar, there are numerous humanoid tribes...but they only dominate areas not dominated by humans such as the coast or the area immediately around Glister.
They also probably have great numbers in the deeps of the world and mountains of an area.
Hard numbers are more difficult to come by...but in truth one thing I think you stated:
quote:
They can maintain these high numbers, for they are able to sustain themselves with MUCH less effort than humans, being more resistant to disease and other human weaknesses.
I don't think that is true. Food resources are what they are, and humans have control of the lands that have the best food resources...and so their numbers are going to exceed humanoid numbers. Humanoids may eat things humans won't...but no stretch of mountain or semi-barren warren of the underdark is going to match the food production ability (even growing wild) of places like the Dales, Sembia or even the Moonsea plains.
A more accurate statement would be that humanoids can match the numbers of warriors that humans have. As society becomes more "comfortable", fewer warriors/hunters are needed...Humanoids would have far more of their number as hunter/gatherers that also easily adapt to the role of warrior.
A village of 100 humans might have 10 warriors that are hunters...while a village of 100 orcs would most likely have as many as 40 warrior/hunters. So it would take 400 humans to produce as many warriors as 100 orcs...as a possible example.
I think it is this thing that can make it seem like Humanoids might have a population similar in size to humans. The smaller a humanoid is, the greater their numbers could be based on the food resources available in an area.
There is a book called "The Orcs of Thar" set in the Mystara world that gave a simple calculation on how many humanoids might be in an area. I don't recall it off-hand, but it might have been as simple as:
If a 1 HD Orc could live in an area, then twice as many kobolds could live in the area, half as many gnolls, a third the number of bugbears, a fourth the number of ogres and a 1/12th the number of Trolls (as trolls are more heavy eaters?). I would go a bit further and say that goblins would fall in between the numbers of kobolds and orcs, while hobgoblins would fall closely to orcs in number but still fewer than orcs and more than gnolls. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 14:48:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I think taht some species with high birthrates and shorter lifespans such as kobolds would definitely outnumber humans.
I believe that in some Drizzt novels there was a reference to untold thousands living underneath the caverns of Menzoberranzan, possibly subsisting on fungus and algae.
Also with the rise of a stable orcish kingdom i.e. Many Arrows the Orcish population must surely be on the rise as their excess population was earlier expended in constant battle which is no longer an option.
Who says it isn't an option? They may have a "treaty" with the Luruar, but they're still surrounded by enemies. Uthgart, goblins, giants, dragons, and more.
Many-Arrows in my campaign is in a constant state of war, expanding north, west, and down into the underdark, and this is precisely the reason. The relative stability of the interior of the kingdom leading to a rise in population that they don't have the resources to sustain. So they expand to capture more land to provide for that population while at the same time using that expansion to cull their own population through combat.
Anyway, as to the point at hand, I was recently reading the 4e draconomicon and there was a throw-away line in there regarding draconic population in relation to other races that seemed to imply that yes, orcs and goblinkin do outnumber humans, at least on some worlds. As to whether or not this applies to the realms specifically, I couldn't say and kind of doubt it.
However, if one were to want to reconcile this with the repeated mentions of humanity being the most populous race, the answer is simple. It's only recently that orcs and goblinkin have been thought of as "races" rather than as "monsters". So its likely that neither the characters mentioning humanity's numerical dominance nor the authors writing for them thought to include orcs or goblins in the count. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 16:58:42
|
I never said that Many Arrows is completely at peace. No doubt they are constantly skirmishing with their neighbors but this is different from the kind of full scale warfare that created the kingdom in the first place and the casualties would be much lesser especially as pre Obould orc war tactics consisted of throwing vast numbers of cannon fodder at the enemy until they finally got overwhelmed.
As for the forays into the underdark that's a good idea but I haven't read anything about it.
|
|
|
|
Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 17:22:17
|
Orcs are an especially fecund race. Orcs reach sexual maturity early, orc females have a slightly shorter pregnancy than most humanoids and their hardiness gives them fewer chance at dying during the birth of a baby-orc (without magical or medical care). If a human woman can give birth to a small family (three to five children) during her fertile years, an orc woman would likely have had double the numbers of babies.
Goblinoids are too very numerous, but here its mainly their low subsistance level required that makes them so succesful. They are smaller so need less food, and their (lack of a) community structure ensures the time spend raising is kept to a minimum. All goblins children are 'raised' in large penns without direct parental aid, so female goblins only fail to actively contribute to the community during later stages of pregnancy.
The North is an area where goblinoids, kobolds and orcs likely far outnumber human populations. It's history tells us the inner lands used to be settled by human, dwarven and elven cities but the constant onslought of goblin raids, orc hordes and kobold sappers pushed them south or towards the coastlines. Thats why ther are so many dungeons and ruins to explore, they are remnants of the once quite numerous demihuman realms of the North.
Due to the Norths many uncontested resources available to for example the goblinoid tribes, they can grow numerous in only a few years of time. The many dangerous monsters in the area are a good control of their higher numbers, but going by averages I'd say the ratio of human to monstrous race is:
Human - Orc 2-5
Human - Goblin 1-3
Human - Kobold 1-5
Human - Troll 20-1 (Trolls are ravenous creatures in need of a lot of resources)
Human - Gnoll 3-1 (Gnolls don't favor the coldish northlands)
These numbers are highly variable, depending on disasters, hordes, plagues and active monstrous or human culling. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 17:36:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I never said that Many Arrows is completely at peace. No doubt they are constantly skirmishing with their neighbors but this is different from the kind of full scale warfare that created the kingdom in the first place and the casualties would be much lesser especially as pre Obould orc war tactics consisted of throwing vast numbers of cannon fodder at the enemy until they finally got overwhelmed.
As for the forays into the underdark that's a good idea but I haven't read anything about it.
Yea, there's nothing official about any expansion into the UD, but then again, outside of the short blurbs in the FRPG and FRCG, there's nothing official on Many-Arrows society, period.
Being that Many-Arrows takes up about half my campaigns, more or less, I did quite a bit of filling in the blanks. Expansion into the Underdark seemed a logical step as I figure most of the fertile land within Many-Arrows boarders is beneath ground, with fungal farms and rothe ranches. Not to mention mining being a huge industry in my Many-Arrows, with untold untapped ore veins in the spine. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 17:37:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I never said that Many Arrows is completely at peace. No doubt they are constantly skirmishing with their neighbors but this is different from the kind of full scale warfare that created the kingdom in the first place and the casualties would be much lesser especially as pre Obould orc war tactics consisted of throwing vast numbers of cannon fodder at the enemy until they finally got overwhelmed.
As for the forays into the underdark that's a good idea but I haven't read anything about it.
Hats sad but true. What your suggesting makes sense, I hope to read some official lore about this expansion into the underdark one day. It opens up a whole bunch of possibilities such as the expansionist orcs antagonizing the drow into open war. That might make for a good novel, after all orcs are people now, maybe we need a book or two from their perspective.
Yea, there's nothing official about any expansion into the UD, but then again, outside of the short blurbs in the FRPG and FRCG, there's nothing official on Many-Arrows society, period.
Being that Many-Arrows takes up about half my campaigns, more or less, I did quite a bit of filling in the blanks. Expansion into the Underdark seemed a logical step as I figure most of the fertile land within Many-Arrows boarders is beneath ground, with fungal farms and rothe ranches. Not to mention mining being a huge industry in my Many-Arrows, with untold untapped ore veins in the spine.
|
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 17:45:46
|
One of my plotlines, heavily inspired and influenced by the TV show Spartacus: Blood and Sand and it's sequel seasons, was a story where agents of Many-Arrows actually infiltrated Menzoberranzan to instigate a slave uprising.
It's actually one of the major balancing factors in my version of the realms; the Silver Marches don't want to go to war with Many-Arrows because they've got Netheril breathing down their necks, and Many-Arrows doesn't want to go to war with the Marches because they know the drow are just waiting to stick a knife in their back. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Humanoid population levels.
