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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 00:19:21
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Ok guys here a tough one for you...
If someone casts a still, silent, meterial aschewed spell, one would not be able to identify the spell as of the free action spellcraft check DC 15+spell level, which is needed to counter a spell. If someone then would use dispell magic one does not need to identify the spell, but would not know whether or not someone was actually casting anything. How then would someone know when to cast the dispel to interupt the casting?
NB: Counterspell happens during the casting not before or after.. so if you cant see or hear your enemy casting a spell due to still, silent, eschew materials, can you then counter the spell at all?
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 28 Sep 2013 00:30:14
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 00:34:04
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| The only way I could see a counter spell being cast would be if magic counterspeller had magical detection in effect, some thing like detect magic, true seeing might work, as might wards that alert in some how. I do not see anyone without in place detection warnings that would be able to counterspell a spell not seen detected before the effects occur. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 04:05:06
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I would only rule that a Swift Action could be used to counterspell; so if someone had a Swift Action Dispel Magic readied, they could counter the effect...and that would be stretching it!
On the other hand, if someone had the 9th level wizard spell "Foresight" cast, I would allow them to counterspell...that being in 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder.
The last resort that I would obviously allow is having a Contingency in effect which would allow a counterspell. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
879 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2013 : 10:00:08
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If the counterspeller has detect magic going he/she could counterspell it with dispel magic (since detect magic just tells you something is magical/there is magic somewhere and doesn't give information on school/spell level/specific spell).
If the counterspeller has arcane sight (greater) going he/she could counterspell normally but i would make the spellcraft check more difficult (say 20+spell level or even 25+spell level) because he/she couldn't recognize the spell by the somatic and verbal components and he/she just has the magic aura to analyze. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 12:41:45
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Its pretty clear rules wize... I have looked into the whole thing and to me you simple cant counterspell something you dont know is going on. One could argue, that detect magic would show magic flowing to the caster, but rules dont talk about that when countering. Perhaps if two wizards was stading en melee they could "feel" the magic flowing, but that is not in the rules either.
It fairy OP when you cant counterspell someone casting still silent, eschew material... but thats the rules for you. IMHO that is! ANd so far as I have been able to find! |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 15:45:16
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I believe this article will help you:
More Magical Oddities (Part One)By Skip Williams http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050524a
and
More Magical Oddities (Part Two)By Skip Williams http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050607a
quote:
The rules don't come right out and say so, but since you must see a somatic (or material) component or hear a verbal component to identify any spell as it is being cast, you cannot identify a spell that doesn't have any verbal, somatic, or material components. An example of this is a silent and stilled spell that doesn't have a material component. This makes such spells difficult to counter (but see the next section).
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 19:55:16
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quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
I believe this article will help you:
More Magical Oddities (Part One)By Skip Williams http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050524a
and
More Magical Oddities (Part Two)By Skip Williams http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050607a
quote:
The rules don't come right out and say so, but since you must see a somatic (or material) component or hear a verbal component to identify any spell as it is being cast, you cannot identify a spell that doesn't have any verbal, somatic, or material components. An example of this is a silent and stilled spell that doesn't have a material component. This makes such spells difficult to counter (but see the next section).
I have read the two very nice links you have provided, but the next section doesnt say how to know someone is casting when no component, verbal or somatic is provided. And so, I must stand by my initial conclusion. Still, silent material eschewed spells cant be countered. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 20:22:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I have read the two very nice links you have provided, but the next section doesnt say how to know someone is casting when no component, verbal or somatic is provided. And so, I must stand by my initial conclusion. Still, silent material eschewed spells cant be countered.
Read the spell Foresight...you will change your mind. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 20:43:05
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I'll just point out that you might know that you are the target of a spell. So thats spells that trigger spell reflection.
Area or buffs spell, or Gate, to call in some sort of beat that will win, you will have no chance of countering.
In fact, it you might know that you are being targeted, but you actually dont know when the "fire" buttom is pressed.
Not sure im convinced, and if I were, it would only be for targeted spells! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2013 : 22:30:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I'll just point out that you might know that you are the target of a spell. So thats spells that trigger spell reflection.
Area or buffs spell, or Gate, to call in some sort of beat that will win, you will have no chance of countering.
In fact, it you might know that you are being targeted, but you actually dont know when the "fire" buttom is pressed.
Not sure im convinced, and if I were, it would only be for targeted spells!
Only a Swift, Silent, Still and Material Eschewed spell would I rule could not be counterspelled.
Remember, a Swift Action is an interrupt against any action currently under way...So a Swift Counterspell would come before the Silent, Still and Material Eschewed spell by the rules of 3.5 D&D. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 07:16:50
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I get why you say what you say, but the big problem is, that the rules says, that you cant see that someone is casting a spell, if its still and silent or without materials. If you readied an action to counter you would be waiting for some sign that the spellcasting would be starting, but all you would see was an old man smiling at you, arms crossed. BOOM, take a fortitude save! You would simple not know when to activate your swift, immediate or readied action!
Foresigt would tell you, if you were the target of a spell, but does not specifically say you know when you will be hit! A DM could argue that it did, but I dont see it in the spell discription! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4468 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 09:10:35
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| I'd rule that such a spell (of which 3 feats are being used) couldn't be countered. The spellcaster obviously put a LOT of resources into making it appear that the spell occured from nothing and I think making that be almost impossible to counter is fair. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 14:11:59
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Ahhh...we are talking about before a battle even begins...as a pre-emptive attack. In that case I would have to agree. I was going by the assumption that we are already in combat. My apology.
EDIT: for your consideration...
Epic Counterspell
(Player's Guide to Faerūn, p. 135)
[Epic]
You can counterspell any number of spells each round.
Prerequisite
Spellcraft 30 ranks, Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Improved Counterspell, Quicken Spell, Reactive Counter spell,
Benefit
Any number of times per round, you can counterspell an opponent's spell even if you have not readied an action to do so. Such a counterspell doesn't count against your later actions for the round. You can even use this feat when flat-footed.
Special
This feat should be considered part of the epic bonus feat list for any class that grants access to spells of at least 6th level as part of normal (nonepic) class progression (such as bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards), as well as for any prestige class that grants a "+1 level of existing class" spell progression at all levels.
Normal
Without this feat, a character must ready an action in each round that she wishes to use a counterspell. A character with the Reactive Counterspell feat can counterspell an opponent's spell if she hasn't readied an action, but only once per turn and not when flat-footed.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 30 Sep 2013 18:07:45 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 19:51:01
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| I was talking about in the middle of battle. Wizard vs wizard! I have yet to find evidence that spells can be countered when they are still, silent and without materieals! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2013 : 23:19:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I was talking about in the middle of battle. Wizard vs wizard! I have yet to find evidence that spells can be countered when they are still, silent and without materieals!
Because you are trying to use rational thought to explain magic my friend. The mechanics of a game can only carry us so far...then our imagination must complete the journey of story.
If you can consider a Still, Silent and Eschewed Material spell being cast...why is it so much harder for you to consider the magical possibility of such a spell being countered? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4468 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 05:06:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I was talking about in the middle of battle. Wizard vs wizard! I have yet to find evidence that spells can be countered when they are still, silent and without materieals!
Because you are trying to use rational thought to explain magic my friend. The mechanics of a game can only carry us so far...then our imagination must complete the journey of story.
If you can consider a Still, Silent and Eschewed Material spell being cast...why is it so much harder for you to consider the magical possibility of such a spell being countered?
The question is: How does the opposing mage know when to counter the spell if he's unsure if one is even cast? I mean, he needs to when the mage is casting but if he's just standing there with his arms folded in front if his chest and smirking and all of a sudden a fireball is leaping at you, then I'd say you've missed your chance to counter. Some higher level spells might tip you off that magic is gathering (heh, no pun intended) but Im not familiar with them. And if so, they should be pretth high level, not a cantrip like detect magic. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
Edited by - Diffan on 01 Oct 2013 05:09:27 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 05:21:25
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| Craft Contingent Spell: Dispel Magic on spell targeting wizard when wizard is targeted by any magical spell. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4468 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 06:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Craft Contingent Spell: Dispel Magic on spell targeting wizard when wizard is targeted by any magical spell.
Sure, that could work but is it really worth 3 days of your time and 1800 gp + 144xp of your resources? Just to get off a spell that might not even work in the first place? To me,I'll take chances with spells that targets me. And it doesnt work on area of effect spells like Fireball since that targets an area instead of a target creature. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
Edited by - Diffan on 01 Oct 2013 07:11:07 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 08:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I was talking about in the middle of battle. Wizard vs wizard! I have yet to find evidence that spells can be countered when they are still, silent and without materieals!
Because you are trying to use rational thought to explain magic my friend. The mechanics of a game can only carry us so far...then our imagination must complete the journey of story.
If you can consider a Still, Silent and Eschewed Material spell being cast...why is it so much harder for you to consider the magical possibility of such a spell being countered?
Well to me, first of all I think the rules as writte are pretty clear that without identification "normal" counterspell is not possible. Also normally one would have to ready an action to counter. But such a ready action will not be triggered since you would be waiting... and waiting for oyu opponent to start casting. All of a sudden you would have to make a will save. Not knowing from where or why until your rol was resolved.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4468 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 21:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
I was talking about in the middle of battle. Wizard vs wizard! I have yet to find evidence that spells can be countered when they are still, silent and without materieals!
Because you are trying to use rational thought to explain magic my friend. The mechanics of a game can only carry us so far...then our imagination must complete the journey of story.
If you can consider a Still, Silent and Eschewed Material spell being cast...why is it so much harder for you to consider the magical possibility of such a spell being countered?
Well to me, first of all I think the rules as writte are pretty clear that without identification "normal" counterspell is not possible. Also normally one would have to ready an action to counter. But such a ready action will not be triggered since you would be waiting... and waiting for oyu opponent to start casting. All of a sudden you would have to make a will save. Not knowing from where or why until your rol was resolved.
Pretty much my thoughts. Now I agree that a Contingent spell would work in this matter as would things like globe of invulnerability or antimagic field but then it comes down to who goes first in the initiative order. As for readying an action, there were a series of feats one could take Improved Counterspell and Rapid Counterspell to reduce the requirements of counterspelling. With these feats (and Improved Initiative, which is a pre-req) you can counter any spell that you know is being cast so long as you use a spell of the same school that's one or more levels higher. It also eats up your next turn.
Still, this wouldn't work since you still have to decide what spell is being cast in the first place which Still/Silent Spells pretty much negate. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4213 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 04:36:44
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I'm arguing against a brick wall here...Reactive Counterspell does not require an action to be readied. It actually is considered a Swift action, which by the game rules would interrupt any action currently happening and take place first...therefore the Reactive Counterspell could counter the Still/Silent spell simply because all Immediate actions take place before standard actions when implemented.
I may be reading the rules wrong...but that is about all I can say on the matter as some are using opinion instead of rules. I agree that it makes sense that a spell could go off without anyone wiser; it is just that the rules allow for something else as I read them. YMMV |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 12:05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm arguing against a brick wall here...Reactive Counterspell does not require an action to be readied. It actually is considered a Swift action, which by the game rules would interrupt any action currently happening and take place first...therefore the Reactive Counterspell could counter the Still/Silent spell simply because all Immediate actions take place before standard actions when implemented.
I may be reading the rules wrong...but that is about all I can say on the matter as some are using opinion instead of rules. I agree that it makes sense that a spell could go off without anyone wiser; it is just that the rules allow for something else as I read them. YMMV
I totally agree with what you are saying!  Except for the fact that you dont know that any casting a going on, and thats the reason why you cant counter it. With still, silent and eschew materials, you dont know your enemy is casting spells at all. So thats why you cant counter it! |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
879 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 10:32:29
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Finally found a spell i vaguely remembered:
Battlemagic Perception (from Heroes of Battle)
Divination
Level: Cleric 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min/level (D)
You gain perception of the forces of magic and can sense when magic is being manipulated by a spellcaster. You gain +5 competence bonus on Spellcraft checks made to identify a spell as its being cast.
If you have 5 ranks in Spellcarft, you are also able to sense the use of any spell or spell-like ability whitin 100 feet, so long as you have line of effect to the caster. With a Spellcraft check (DC 15+spell level) you can even ascertain what spell is being cast.
The determination happens quick enough that you can attempt to counter the spell as a free action. Counterspell attempts are otherwise handled normally, and you can counter the spell even if you do not have line of sight to the spellcaster. If you counter a spell in this manner, the Battlemagic Perception spell ends immediately.
This seems a clear winner in this situation.
Granted, we are talking of someone that prepares him/herself because (s)he is expecting to meet a powerful spellcaster and plans for countersmeasures. If we are talking about chance meetings than all this is out the window except in rare cases of really paranoid spellcasters (and one such paranoid spellcaster may very well have a contingency spell cast that refreshes the Battlemagic Perception as soon as it is expended in a counterspell).
I would still rule that Arcane Sight (that can be rendered permanent) or Greater Arcane Sight would let a would be counterspeller know the school of the spell being cast just by looking at the aura of the caster changing, so letting him try a (Greater) Dispel Magic counterspell action (or a higher level counterspell action, a gamble without knowledge of the spell being cast) if (s)he has the means to do free/swift/immediate counterspells or if (s)he has an action readied from before (like "i ready a counterspell action against Bob as soon as he steps in the room").
As you see, that's kind of a big mess of planning, in most situations nobody would be able to do anything i think. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2013 : 14:25:02
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| Yes that is the exception that confirms the rule. So is ring of spell battle.! |
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Counterspelling
