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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 21:31:17
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Hello my fellow DMs
Before I ask my question I will try give you a quick back round on the game I am running.
The game is based in 4th timeline, but 3.5 rules.
In the game in the mountains between Cormyr and the Dale lands, there is a Giant King who has an army of Giants, orcs, goblins, etc., and he plans to invade the dales, with the help from the drow already in the dales, (they stuck a deal).
Cormyr learned of this plan and arranged a meeting with the dales council (in our game the council has real power in running the dales). During this meeting, Cormyr said they would help defend the dales only if they had a seat on the council. Due to the fact the dales could not win this war on their own, they accepted Cormyr offer. And currently Cormyr is moving in purple dragons to help defend the dales.
Now one of the pcs did not like the way Cormyr did this and left the purple dragons, and he wants to try and help the dales by gaining allies to fight this Giant king army. And maybe show the dales they don’t need Cormyr.
And part of his plan is to go to the head of the church of Torm and ask for Military aid in defending the dales against this evil.
Question 1: Would the church help, considering that Cormyr is already helping, and that the Torm churches in Cormyr are sending men with the purple dragons entering the dales,
Question 2: If yes how much military aid can the church actually give. Like does the Torm church have an army? (I was reading in the Power of Faerun and he says most churches only has enough men to defend themselves and fight rival churches Bane etc)
In our game the pc was branded a Traitor by the purple Dragons and the Torm church in Cormyr has back this up.
Question 3: Would the other Torm churches even deal with him?
Torm himself has yet to remove his powers because the PC is trying to come to the defence of the Dales, and yet to do anything to make me remove his powers.
He also wants to go to the celestial planes and ask for help in war with the Evil giant king. (Btw his pc is alone and has no backup or anything to fight this giant army)
Question 4: Would they help or are they too busy with their own wars? And if they did help how much and what help could they give?
Thank you all for reading and I look forward to you response, I am sorry for any spelling mistakes or gamer.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 22:18:50
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Considers Dogma quote:
Salvation may be found through service. Every failure of duty diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster. Strive to maintain law and order. Obey your masters with alert judgment and anticipation. Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals. Bring painful, quick death to traitors. Question unjust laws by suggesting improvement or alternatives, not additional laws. Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerûn
1) The church clearly should help. "Strive to maintain law and order."
2) Your realm, your numbers, it clearly is possible a few could be sent from each temple to aid, or Bane might not be active at the current time freeing up more clerics and followers.
3)I would think as long as Torm still grants powers, other cities' churches would accept the PC. In fact they might be concerned about the Torm churches in Cormyr refusing aid and shunning the PC.
As for fighting against the odds, that might be foolish and a waste of resources. This however is clearly a choice of the PC that believes is "Stand ever alert against corruption."
4) As same as answer to 2 your Realm, your numbers and plane circumstances.. The quickest aid comes from those next in danger if first conquest succeeds, those further away are less likely to be concerned until the danger is nearer. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 22:34:36
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Q1: The church of Torm in Cormyr is already lending aid to the Purple Dragons, so i don´t see a reason why the head church would send additional forces on the word of one cleric with no official mandate by their branch in Cormyr. He has to go through church hirarchy and the higher ups would question the intent of this one cleric who is, assuming they recieved word about his "ousting", who is doing things on his own.
Q2: The church of Torm mostlikely has troops, mostly faithfull soldiers and paladins on crusading duties but mustering additional forces does cost resources. Manpower, supplies and coin the church may not have at the moment and with their branch in Cormyr already sending troops, there is no need to send more troops if they can be used elsewhere. Elturgard in 4th Edition if you play with them in place is a theocratic "dictatorship" of Torm in the Western Heartlands, they also have troops but i see no reason why they should get involved in problems that do not effect them. As for armies of faiths in total, i would say they vary in size and purpose with for example Bane having one of the larger ones(maybe even the largest) for obvious reasons while Eldath i can´t picture having one at all aside some autonomous forces acting in her name.
Q3: He is branded as a traitor, that would mean he is shunned by the church for abandoning his duty. Again, here would impact church hirarchy and it would be the clerics problem to proof that he did not "betray" his faith. Until he can clear his name, i would see the church hunting him for a trial.
Q4: Unless there is a schism inside the church of Torm, i don´t see them aiding a branded traitor and since Cormyr is already recieving aid from the church of torm in their country, no troops would be send just for the dales to be "independant" from Cormyr. That would mean if it came to blows between the Dales and Cormyr for what ever reason, then faithful of Torm sponsored by their church would fight against each other. I don´t see them to support such a scenario. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 22:51:22
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thanks for the posts,
so in game terms could the church see him as a lone hectic, because torm is still granting him powers?
and to be clear, Cormyr are the ones to branded him a traitor for going awol, and the Torm being duty and loyatly they have sided with Cormyr.
like would the church of Torm itself have any issues with the way Cormyr handled the dales meeting by exchanging troops for power within the dales?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2013 : 23:11:57
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quote:
Originally posted by portose_sharpe
thanks for the posts,
so in game terms could the church see him as a lone hectic, because torm is still granting him powers?
If Torm is still granting powers, how can mere mortals claim he is a hectic? Torm at least for now does not have cast out.quote:
and to be clear, Cormyr are the ones to branded him a traitor for going awol, and the Torm being duty and loyatly they have sided with Cormyr.
like would the church of Torm itself have any issues with the way Cormyr handled the dales meeting by exchanging troops for power within the dales?
"Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals." It is possible that the Cormyr church might consider this part of the dogma.
I have not seen all the game and we have only heard parts of it.
The PC might be misguided and needs guidance and maybe even healing. I do not know how long it took the Cormyr church to shun the PC, was it fast because of duty to Cormyr?
I do know you indicated you adjusted for home game dogma some as well.
Oh one might consider advice from Lord Bane with some caution. While the user might be a better DM then I am, his selection of user name might indicate a biases in how he would deal with a Torm follower. *Wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 09:48:32
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I reject any notion that i am biased in favor of his high dreadness who shall rightfull conquer one and all and all will bow to his supreme tyranny and might... *cough* 
Seriously, the church of Torm, should they be informed of the dale talks, can voice concern. Cormyr is not obligated to follow their advice. The church of Torm is not state religion and has no additional weight in Cormyr for that particular matter. If they position themselves against the agenda of Cormyr, why should Cormyr keep them in a favorable light? They would become subject to repression because in the end a nation unless it is entrenched in a religious agenda will not bend knee to a church that has no greater impact on them. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 16:30:48
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Difficult situation, I think.
Torm's church wouldn't have a standing military because (as others have said) they're not leading a theocracy in Cormyr. They -would- have access to (and probably call in) a number of known Tormite heroes from all over the north in order to help. And they probably have already done so, because they'd be aware of the dangers of a monstrous army on Cormyr's (and the Dales') doorstep.
But would they want to involve themselves politically in this situation and choose "sides"? Would they ally with or allow their forces to be led by a priest that has gone rogue? I suspect they'd send in a force to help, but it wouldn't involve choosing a side or supporting one good government (Cormyr) over another good government (the Dales).
Good nations (and chaotic good leaders) engage in shady, underhanded, manipulative politics all the time. It's practically required, considering that few people want to live under a tyranny and because there are many shades of gray to life. Who is to say that the Prince wouldn't have helped the Dales anyway, and that he just used the situation to his benefit - and perhaps he even sees the Dales under Cormyr as benefitting the people of the dales?
Priests and paladins often have to overlook the smaller evils so that they can focus on greater evils. Building a bigger, stronger Cormyr might be stabilizing and helpful for the entire region, eventually. It has good laws, good people, etc. In the same way that priests and paladins keep the greater good in mind, politicians often must trade power or favors in order to build long-term strength and stability. It's pragmatic, sometimes coldly pragmatic, and not evil.
On the other hand, if a noble or leader is obviously endangering people, hurting people directly, or constantly doing things that generate strife and instability (or even loss of life), then that person should be stopped.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 02 Oct 2013 16:42:45 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2013 : 21:03:31
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| Therise, maybe the Prince or the Giants follow Bane. If so clearly would get more involved. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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warmonger
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2013 : 00:18:27
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Hi all new to the forum so I apologise if I don’t follow protocol and customs, but will learn as I go
Long-time dm of the realms, so my thoughts on this are:
This is a tough one to call but I think I side with Kentinal.
Q1
If the cleric is asking for help against the giant king army? Yes
quote:
Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerûn
he is trying to save people without them paying a price for freedom.
in 4th edition cormyr have expanded but that means more borders and cities to control.
quote:
Giant King who has an army of Giants, orcs, goblins, etc., and he plans to invade the dales, with the help from the drow already in the dales,
my own thoughts are cormyr wouldn’t have the man power to stop a force this size and power unless pulling men from all over cormyr. with the shade at their door in sembia I couldn’t see cormyr risking a move like that. who is the bigger enemy?! But you know your realm.
knowing this cormyr could take advantage of this, and use the cleric as a second force. manipulative him to think he is charge. but dangerous if it is found out. the church would not like this at all.
Q2 In our game the pc was branded a Traitor by the purple Dragons and the Torm church in Cormyr has back this up.
If yes how much military aid can the church actually give. Like does the Torm church have an army? (I was reading in the Power of Faerun and he says most churches only has enough men to defend themselves and fight rival churches Bane etc)
two parts to this question
part 1 what can they send ?
part 2 would those help a traitor
I will answer part 2 first, easier.
if he was really a traitor of torm he would lose his powers and that would be evidence for the church to turn on him.
as I do not know all the details of your game. why has the church of torm backed the court of cormyr so quickly? if he is good and still have powers did the church not question how can he be a traitor then? was there a trail?
part 1
would be up to you what aid, I do believe as quite a powerful church they has resources. so in time of need they would have people or groups to call on. the numbers would be up to you. bigger the threat more they send to help I say.
The church could ask for volunteer if they want to hear what he had to say.
if he led I don’t know. if me I would want to why he would lead or allie with him. a test or a mission where he gives an oath to torm and if he breaks it torm takes his powers, after the dales as I can’t seeing him stopping if he is fighting giant army.
Q3 Would the other Torm churches even deal with him?
if another church believe (by spells) that the cleric is trying to help the people of dales they would help. I can’t see a church saying no to help people been threaten or worse from an evil army.
quote:
Priests and paladins often have to overlook the smaller evils so that they can focus on greater evils. Building a bigger, stronger Cormyr might be stabilizing and helpful for the entire region, eventually. It has good laws, good people, etc. In the same way that priests and paladins keep the greater good in mind, politicians often must trade power or favours in order to build long-term strength and stability. It's pragmatic, sometimes coldly pragmatic, and not evil.
I wouldn't agree with this and mostly for paladins, they cannot overlook any evil simple as that, that is the curse of been a paladin.
looking at the tactic of cormyr getting a seat on the dales council
would appear very shady, underhanded to paladin or a lawful good cleric.
if it was said we want a seat in dales while we help with you fight the giant kings army and then leave. would look like a better deal. and more friendly as some dales are friends and allies.
it does look a little like "you want our help you will pay for it".
if that’s what happened, surprize not more turned lawful goods clerics join him, can’t see good cleric like been used as pawn for cormyr to get more power.
quote:
Torm himself has yet to remove his powers because the PC is trying to come to the defence of the Dales, and yet to do anything to make me remove his powers.
Has yet?? so you aren’t sure yet. this is a very dangerous road to travel. To what you said the pc hasn’t done anything evil or harmed anybody. He is trying to help the dales because he thinks the dales are been corrupted by cormyian tactics. If there is corruption or anything like it then how can you justified taking his power now??
If torm believes ( the dm) he is trying do good and trying to save people in the dales He would help him and if he makes a bad decision ( not evil decision) he would guide him the right way(dream or vision).
Taking powers is over played because it’s easy way to warn players.
Have you ever hear an evil cleric losing powers because he wasn’t evil Enough?!!!:)
(Don’t mean to be stepping on toes)
quote:
Good nations (and chaotic good leaders) engage in shady, underhanded, manipulative politics all the time. It's practically required, considering that few people want to live under a tyranny and because there are many shades of gray to life. Who is to say that the Prince wouldn't have helped the Dales anyway, and that he just used the situation to his benefit - and perhaps he even sees the Dales under Cormyr as benefitting the people of the dales?
shady, underhanded, manipulative politics is a dangerous area to cross with good nations. If the people of the nation hear about it can start revolt, this is when the start of evil can be justified, there has to be a line not to cross. torm is a good example, if you cleric is doing good for the Faerûn (dales) why would be punished by church or god? once he is really doing good and on that path.
no council or country would want any other country coming and taking power and worse been bullied into it good or evil.
we have century of history to support that. next you will hear of secret meeting in the dales of folks wanting there council back
Q4 Would they help or are they too busy with their own wars? And if they did help how much and what help could they give?
if there is evidence of demon been involved with the drow or giant king's army then the answer is a big yes these too are arch enemies like bane and torm wink at lord bane I think he doesn’t like the cleric of torm for some reason or any other 
but like the church and celestial them need information (spies) first before knowing what to send or if the pc knows missions to be carry out that could be easier for you.
some celestial are brilliant spies. so like all wars information is the key fastor of winning. they can do counter int. very handed if the cleric is more for guerrilla warfare.
problem I think I see is what to do with the pc?
do you think he will stay on this path?
do you believe that he wants to help the dales?
if I was in your shoes and only saying if ( don’t want to step on toes in here)
I would help ( I always felt if the pcs are doing good deeds reward them because it is harder to play a good pc and ever hard lawful good (if he is)
Plus what I notice the older we get playing, the more argumentative we get. Does sound like you could get in a heater debate on this.
Personally I think could make for a very interesting game.
[/quote] Now one of the pcs did not like the way Cormyr did this and left the purple dragons [/quote]
I guess the other pcs are purple dragons.
So could play out:
purple dragon army moving into dales to get a foothold.
A torm cleric maybe with support trying to help the dales folk
Possible corruption from the courts of cormyr
In-house debates in church of torm over following courts of cormyr verdict with no trial (if no trial)
And then giant king army with drow to fight.
i would say its tough enough to play, cleric with no church backing, cormyr after him, purple dragons soon to be after him too for awol, then he wants to take on giant king army and drow by himself..... and you want to make it harder for him????? as in the dm book dm's side with good not evil ( as i remember in older books)
if its a problem for you and effects your game for the other pcs as its the major game, sometimes some games take a lot of our time we are have a path to follow. try work something out with him
I apologise again if i stepped on toes i am a newbie
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Edited by - warmonger on 05 Oct 2013 00:40:28 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2013 : 13:17:57
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I oppose the very notion that DM´s side with good and not evil. A DM can decide if he/she wants to follow the repetitive trope of good triumphs because it is "good" or if the DM decides to give the players a challange and sides with "evil". That would then mean the players need to use their wits, might be terrifying for some to use their brains for once, think their actions through and act after reevaluation of the situation. I say again, a DM should not hold the players hands when they utterly fail at the task because they were not trying hard enough. Sure, you can have them wade through legions of monsters in a dungeon crawl and let them all come out alive and with glory and honor shining, but this case is a political campaign with several layers of interactions and politics are not "You lose because you are evil." "Oh? Damn, i didn´t knew that, i yield." *evil adversary trots off with hanging head*. It is simply not believable. Now one can argue if roleplaying is believable at all but when you engage yourself in a story, you become part of it, your character is part of it and if you take any pride in roleplaying, you will attempt to react as your character would in the situations that may be flung at him within the story. You PLAY the ROLE. If the group just wants light entertainment, then they shouldn´t have went on to do a "serious" campagin. I have trust in portose as the DM to know if the group is capable of handling the higher gears of a campaign as he interacts with them and i applaud him if he decides to not fall to overcome antics of "good triumphs over evil because it is good". They need to work to win and if they can´t pull it off, they lose.
*goes off to sacrifice some worthless torm clerics to mighty Bane for his glory*
This joke aside, the cleric has several options to get aid, it is up to him if he succeeds and not, i won´t give him any tips, he has to pull it off with his own skills |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 05 Oct 2013 13:18:53 |
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warmonger
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2013 : 15:27:20
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Oops I think I step on a someone’s toes sorry
Well I do have to disagree,
Maybe I came across wrong from a dm point,
Which is easier to play good or evil?? Evil, you can do as you like with no worries of consequences.
Good you have to obey laws (good laws) and try help people of nations in need.
If you play good it can be harder to play as you have boundaries, where evil doesn’t, that’s why I would be more inclined to help a good pc. This doesn't not mean I hand him or group keys to the safe, small simple things.
But saying all this if your good or evil and the campaign is quite in depth good roleplayers should be able to find help on their own. The different is if the group turns the dm and says we need help where or what do we do?? That’s a problem. The cleric looks like he is going to look for help himself.
If pcs have goals for their characters its then up to us as dm to point them on the right direction.
Maybe be some bumps on the way or detours, put get to the end goal.
Maybe I am too old fashioned
But I do agree pcs should not be led by the hand, then it’s the dm doing all the work and the game just turns into a hack and slash game. As you said it’s called a role playing game. It does sound like there are many layers in the campaign. If a pc takes the harder road to play the character why hinder him? Example he could of easily turned on torm for the church betraying him and join bane. Went to their churches and the shade asking for help to destroy torm and cormyr in the dales. Would jump at the chance to get the upper hand on torm and cormyr I would say…. That’s the easy root
That would be an interesting game ex cleric of torm now bane joins force with giant king army, now you have drow, bane, shade, giant king army..... Cormyr just might rethink their position right up your ally lord bane
If I came across brash portose and bane I do apologise only give a dm point of view and newbie
Sounds like a very interesting game for dm and pcs
Can I ask where you excepting the cleric to do this?
Looking forward to many more heated debates
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2013 : 16:03:56
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Oh i am not feeling my toes stepped on
It depends how the DM acts. If the players play evil characters and they mess things up, then the DM needs to swat their hands and be the goodly force attempting to stop them, if they are all goody types, the DM needs to be the vile forces of evil to oppose their quest to make things interesting. If the group is mixed, then it is the duty of the DM to make it interesting for both sides and as you pointed out play on the goals of the characters. I agree with you there, they need hints to keep the story going but if the clues are scattered about, it is the task of the players to get their characters to find them after some hints by the DM and not the obvious smack at the head with a sign telling them where to go. So in the end, the DM needs to be able to pull off all the variety of the roleplaying range from good to neutral to evil and the players need to get their act together and jump into the story delivered to them. No road is the easy one when the DM knows what he/she may be doing.
He doesn´t need to join the righteous agenda of Bane who will show those false gods what true divinity is.... *cough*, i mean he does not need to side with the banites or the shades or what evil may ever lurk out there. He needs to accept the lot cast at him and deal with it in a way he seems fitting including the consequences of his actions. If he adamantly stands for good and righteousness, he can do that. If he wants to turn on good and embrace evil, he can do that aswell. He has to make the calls for his character and the DM can only react to his actions with the world in mind and how it would react to the deeds done.
I just grow tired of the ever present tantrum "good needs to win". It is more fun if the outcome is open and the actions of the people involved determine it´s course and that includes having evil win the game. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2013 : 17:16:26
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I agree with Lord Bane the DM's role is to not take either a good or evil bent, te DM makes a world filled with all. Those the work for good and those that commit evil because of self interested goals.
The world itself is neutral or near too it as possible, too good a world becomes boring, any evil quickly crushed.
Too Evil a world and the world becomes unlivable, or nearly so. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 00:12:01
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Questions:
In what time is this campaign set?
Where is the humanoid army coming from?
Which of the Dales are under threat?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 06 Oct 2013 00:13:27 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 00:29:56
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George, I hope I can address you as so, we as scribes first found out about this from scroll opened a week or more ago: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18377
Is 4th Edition in many ways. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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blade020877
Seeker
Ireland
72 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2013 : 01:25:32
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my god i am quite a topic these last couple of weeks lol
now thats a thought doing a 180 and joining bane, talking about throwing a cat among the pigeons
but i couldnt see my character doing that. i am interested on finding the dirty b*****ds that framed me in cormyr and locked up my family.
but first the giant king army:)
George i can try answer your question too: 4th edtion but 3.5 rules
i think the giant king from ice dale
and drow are from the dales they are demons too.
others from mountains between dales and cormyr
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Torm Church
