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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 11:53:49
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So, elves have spirits while humans have souls, do they? What is the basic difference?
...apart from that "can't be raised" bit (didn't 3E dispense with that?).
And what of animals, abberrations, fiends and celestials, petitioners, magical beasts and planar humanoids? Do they have souls? Are they souls?
Come to think of it, is "life-force" different than "soul" or "spirit"? How many ursinals can dance on a pin?
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 13:27:28
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you ask a questian hmmm...
any way when i think about it is onley the name that is the diffrence or what. But elfs have a stronger bond to the earth and could reamain and humans dont. naturspirit and soul going of to the heavens. i have no idea really |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2004 : 16:41:42
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I think the excuse was that elves were a race more directly connected with magic itself. Remember, they could also cast level-10 spells. I think that they'd disperse into the Weave (or whatever the magic is like on whatever world they were on) a lot faster than other races, who were usually more material in nature.
Personally, I'm glad that wasn't included in 3e. I hated the arbitrariness of that rule . . .  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 08:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I think the excuse was that elves were a race more directly connected with magic itself. Remember, they could also cast level-10 spells. I think that they'd disperse into the Weave (or whatever the magic is like on whatever world they were on) a lot faster than other races, who were usually more material in nature.
Personally, I'm glad that wasn't included in 3e. I hated the arbitrariness of that rule . . .
I had originally been thinking the same thing. Although, this is a case where I think exceptions to the rule tend to elucidate the entirety of the questions arising.
A few examples should serve the purpose -
1. Members of the Believers of the Source may not be raised or resurrected, but they can be reincarnated as a higher lifeform. 2E PS Factol's Manifesto 25. It stands to reason that the case would be the same in 3E, as this particular rule is not a race-based limitation in the mode of 2E, but rather a result of innate belief.
Part of this clearly is due to the cyclical nature of life that the Believers subscribe to. Allowing for ascension means allowing for many paths towards that end. At times, one must even first descend in order to ascend. Their philosophy also endorses an open idea of experience. If you did not (sufficiently well) pick up a lesson as a Gold Dwarf, then perhaps being a Sun Elf in the next lifetime would be more conducive to learning.
Sourcers do have souls, albeit their souls follow different principles from non-Sourcer souls. Would a natural consequence of this be that souls of Sourcers do not go on to follow the path of the petitioner, specifically I mean adhering to the 'urge to merge' in the course of doing so? I believe the answer to that question is in the affirmative.
Thus Sourcer souls have a different outlet than in general. They may ascend and evolve into new forms, 2E PS On Hallowed Ground 33, or be reincarnated. They seek only the paths leading onto ultimate ascension and not merely merger with deities.
2. A construct in very similar terms may not be raised or resurrected, but for a different reason from the first example considered, namely because constructs simply do not have souls. This suggests that in order to retain the capacity for an afterlife a being must possess a soul, spirit, or life-force. That I use these words to describe the same thing essentially means that I find them to be words that have crept in the languages to describe little-known things but that really mean the same thing. 3E FRMC 4
3. A variation, albeit an important one, to the previous case is that of the Soulmech, from the Dragonstar (henceforth, occasionally: DrS) setting. Such beings possess robotic bodies into which has been inserted a soul, 3E DrS Starfarer's Guide 34, that may escape in the normal fashion, as I understand it. The vessel in which the soul is encapsulated during life though is, again, neither capable of resurrection nor raising, although the soul before degeneration in the manner laid out may be transferred to another soulmech, or at least the device known as a 'neural net. Id.
4. An elemental may not be raised or resurrected either, although it may be wished back into existence. A miracle will also suffice. 3E FRMC 4. But do they have souls? I speculate that the answer may have something to do with intelligence for Elementals, Magical beasts, Animals, etc.
5. Outsiders are subject to some limitations as the previous example. Again though, do they have souls?
In order to answer that question, or at least give it a try, even if in a limited context, let me combine this case with the first. What would happen to a slain Outsider who was also a member of the Believers of the Source?
The answer that tends to emerge is that raising and resurrecting are beyond the pale. What of reincarnation though? This leads me to consider the question of whether or not Sourcers are reincarnated because they possess a soul or because of their belief. If the answer is the latter, then the implications are profound.
This issue, although it might seem petty, is actually, I think, of great significance, for if belief alone makes for an afterlife then anyone who is of sufficent intelligence to join the Believers of the Source (or, by extension, worship the Vedic pantheon, 2E PS On Hallowed Ground 154-157) will by virtue of that belief enter, at least, into a cyclical afterlife in pursuit of evolution towards ascension.
Or perhaps I'm just barmy to the spire...
( ...I apologise for the amount of PS chatter in this post, however the references I mentioned serve to illustrate my points more clearly).
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 08:44:51
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Some expansion on my thoughts presented above -
Souls generally go where they want to go, but it's a bit tricky, since souls don't have minds.
Magic Jar spells trap the mind as well as the soul, and most petitioners are or become intelligent, but lemures, larvae, nupperibos and the like are proof enough that they don't have to be.
I think most souls find their way to their destination by instinct, then. They move toward whatever feels most "right" - usually this is their alignment plane, or the plane of their god.
However, those souls that are inclined to do so can grope their way toward an appropriate newborn (or whenever you decide souls enter their new containers). This can also happen via magic or the command of a deity, but mistakes are much more likely.
Outsiders generally don't have souls, unless they've captured or otherwise become bound to one. Rather, they *are* souls (with minds), or at least spiritual beings. Believer theology generally teaches that they've moved beyond, or have yet to reach, the mortal state, and certainly shouldn't be returned to it. When they die, lesser outsiders are usually absorbed by their home planes - petitioners are a perfect example of this. Outsiders of great power are often able to remain as discarnate spirits and eventually remake themselves, or be remade by whatever gods they serve. A raise outsider spell will also do the job, rescuing even petitioners from oblivion.
I don't see any creature type restriction for reincarnation, so presumedly there's no problem there. In fact, this might be the standard fate for dead outsiders. Dead modrons reincarnate as new monodrones, dead tanar'ri reincarnate as new tanar'ri or other demonic fauna, dead eladrins reincarnate as new eladrins, petitioners become planar animals or possibly sentient landscape, elementals become new elementals, and so on. The Believers (and Dustmen) teach that those who have learned all they need to know in one stage of existence move on to the next, so Ethereal creatures ultimately become elementals, elementals eventually become Primes, Primes become Planars, Planars become outsiders and so forth. Or however they set up the hierarchy - some might put the Inner Planes on top, or undead on top, or dragons on top, or the Abyss on top, or the Ethereal Plane in the middle, or whatever.
The gith races probably have souls, but these are usually captured by their king or queen. Those who don't revere their monarchs as gods should probably be treated as humanoids for the purposes of resurrection and reincarnation.
Believers of the Source should reincarnate by default, then, but actually reincarnating as the spell should require a feat or two.
Sentient constructs are generally animated by spirits or souls. If a mortal soul animated a golem, the golem's destruction would set it free to whatever its destination would have normally been. If an elemental spirit animated the construct, it would become an elemental spirit again, and would probably return to its plane to swim free and alive just as it used to. A dead inevitable would probably be reincarnated as a new inevitable, or maybe it would return to its former life as a gear spirit.
Elves are fey who have chosen to evolve along mortal lines, thus taking on souls. It's probably not the only option for them.
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 09:35:12
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| To me the words soul, spirit, life-force are the same. They're words used to describe the deceased's "spirit". If you think about it everything is made up of some form of energy. So when someone passes their energy is released and goes to another plane of existence. |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 17:12:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
So, elves have spirits while humans have souls, do they? What is the basic difference?
...apart from that "can't be raised" bit (didn't 3E dispense with that?).
And what of animals, abberrations, fiends and celestials, petitioners, magical beasts and planar humanoids? Do they have souls? Are they souls?
Come to think of it, is "life-force" different than "soul" or "spirit"? How many ursinals can dance on a pin?
that is a very good yet opinionated ? good Sage. we all look at it differently n unfortunitly we wont find a straight 4ward "this is the way it is" answer...unless of course Cyric tells his thoery  |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2004 : 19:45:07
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Just clarify one thing for me sage, since my knowledge of PS is limited. I thought the Dustys only cared about beings reaching true death? Wouldn't reincarnation, ressurection, raise dead, lichdom, etc kinda go against their natural school of thought? And what's this I hear that the great Athar were evicted from sigil?!?! |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2004 : 12:48:11
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It does, at least to an extent Cardinal. I really can't go into specifics with this discussion as it would require the inclusion of vast amounts of PS lore...something which I am sure Alaundo would frown upon. However if you are really that interested, let me know and I'll send you some thoughts via ethereal mail.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2004 : 12:51:22
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Oh, and as for the Athar being evicted from Sigil...you may not have heard about a little 'incident' called the 'Faction War'. To cut the discussion short, her Dread Serentity, the Lady of Pain deemed that all Factions been cast out of the City of Doors at the conclusion on the War due to some very unpleasant events which occured during the conflict. For more details, I would suggest picking up the 2e PS tome Faction War, or paying a visit to the PS3e site which details Sigil post-FW.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2004 : 17:43:55
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| Could you give us a link to that site, Sage? |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2004 : 03:26:35
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| Indeed sage, We would be very pleased if you would e-mail us such information. Our hunger for knowledge knows no ends... since one never knows when such knowledge could become... useful... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 10 Feb 2004 03:29:22 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2004 : 07:37:11
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...I'd already provided the address...
It's located at PS3e.com. Be sure to visit, as the new Guide to Sigil has just been added and is now ready for downloading...
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 03:35:28
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No, actually, you hadn't. At least, not a one-click link that lazy old dragons (such as myself) don't have to type in themselves. And in fact, before that last post, I didn't know it was PS3e.com.
So, for those who still don't have it:
--> CLICK ME <-- |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 12:10:25
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Actually, it would appear that neither of those address are the correct ones, at least with regard to the actual information I was talking about previously.
For all those interested in 3e Sigil, the Factions, and all other things PS, try Planewalker.com. That has all the information, located all in the one place.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2004 : 20:00:34
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Ah both were very helpful to us. We found that most entertaining and informative. We also like the Blood War for the Clueless. We know the path to Wisdom and Enlightenment is to first admit we know nothing.... and we assume many around here agree that We know nothing....
But We have a Question... If one were to die when physically transported to another plane (or even while upon Sigil). Would the Soul (Essence, Spirit, etc) Still go to the proper place? IE. Still go be judged by Kelemvor, go to the Fugue Plane (or what have you) Still be picked up by their patron deity? Also What Happens when an Athar dies? |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 01:42:46
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I'm glad you found those sites useful Cardinal...
Anyways as to your first question - I really think that is dependent upon which cosmology you are using with your FR campaign. Obviously, 3e Realms would allow what you have said about Kelemvor and the Fugue Plane, however if, like my DMs, you still use the older 2e PS cosmology within your Realms campaign, that changes the map a little in terms of which deity the player can actually worship.
Now as to what happens to the Athar when they die...Who knows really. It is commonly believed that they simply cease to exist upon body-death never undergoing the transformation to petitioner or whatever. Although there has been some evidence in the past which would suggest otherwise, however it would involved delving more into the PS setting...something I believe Alaundo would greatly frown upon...
If you wish to know more, send me a message via ethereal mail...
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Souls, spirits and other metaphorical constructs
