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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 11:30:02

Have I piqued your curiosity...?

That's just it, "How are Prime Worlds created?"

Is it a set of divine entities (or a few, or one) that begin the process of forming matter from nothingness within an empty area of the Prime? Empty is figurative, of course. It'd just be another parallel universe or crystal sphere made...but whatever.

Or are they "born" from the ethereal plane spontaneously? Does various portions of protomatter combine with the inner planar energies and slowly form a demiplane and then gather more mass and such, and then just "pop" into the Prime when they are "ripe"?

Perhaps it could just be a barren parallel world on one of the infinites within the Prime? Let the spellcaster reform things over time.

In a planar sense, the Prime is most often underlooked. I'm not sure it could be done with mortal magic or even Epic magic. It seems to be in the realm of the divine. But to simulate this kind of work takes simulating divine power in some manner.

Here is the steps I would assume:

1. A significant stable chunk of protomatter from the ethreal. Use demiplane seed or genesis or whatever to begin forming the physics and "reality" of this domain.

2. Just add a little water and sunlight...in a figurative sense, and watch it grow.

3. Get powerful enough spells to fortify and secure and grow it, form it to your image, then Plane Shift it into the Material Plane.

4. Begin using epic level magic -- such as origin of species -- to populate the planet.

So it would really begin in the Ethereal, and its connections to "cook" it into being (or "bake" it like a planetary cake), then shunt the finished works into the Prime. Hope it all holds together in the process. Perhaps gods are able to pull raw material from the Ethereal to perform their creation powers, and form it at will -- with some effort.

But then, this is a rough guideline. I've already got the recipe for making a god lying around here, though... So, who knows?

(This reminds me of two little hyperintelligent, pandimensional mice that were making another Deep Thought, which they were contracting to some planet-making place... I forget the names. Perhaps inspiration can be found from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?)

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Edited by - The Sage on 13 Feb 2004 11:50:20

Lord Rad
Great Reader

United Kingdom
2080 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 11:32:27

Excellent Sage

A beautiful recipe!

By the way, youve got some flour smudged on your chin

Lord Rad

"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 11:33:03

From another aspect you could create something in Astral? Since it is pure thought, as I gather, it could be manipulated by thought, and then used to build something. Epic Astral construct - World...

There are "Astral Physics" addressed somewhat within the Guide to the Astral Plane. You cannot just make thought a reality within the Astral Plane, despite the Silvery Void being hailed as the "Plane of Thought". It is a remarkably stable place. It is more like a "Planar Memory Bank" than an "Imagination Forge". There seems to be more phenomena that has to do with residual memories and effects such as that. It describes entering or existing on the Astral Plane is to be translated into mental energy. A sort of "mental image" of yourself. Natural healing, aging, hunger, thirst, etc., does not affect this form because of this nature it inherits.

What most do not come to realize is that the Astral Plane was to never have been visited, by most authoritative sources. There is no native matter or material to form anything comparable to a demiplane, as found on the vastly impregnable Ethereal Plane. It is the antithesis of the Ethereal in many ways. Anything found there is there by accident.

I suppose you could keep a world in there as a sort of planetary "fridge" or preservation chamber for a time, once you make a ready space for it to inhabit, and bring it back. But no, it would probably take Epic Level or Divine power to manifest any "Astral Construct" of such a stability and ... reality. It is in the realm of these, and only these, beings that thought can conceivably become reality like that. And I doubt it possible for anything permanent or on that large of a scale...even for them. After all, look at the Salient Divine Ability "Divine Creation", for example. For a power to make an entire world would require a huge swath of time resting afterwards. At least, on its own. Maybe...many, many powerful beings -- not one or two or even twenty, but a whole population? -- might co-operate to pull it off...just maybe.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 11:36:23

quote:
Originally posted by Rad

Excellent Sage A beautiful recipe!

By the way, youve got some flour smudged on your chin

Thanks Rad...It's actually part of a BIG project that I, and a number of other members of the D&D online community are developing...But it's supposed to be a secret, and not something that I should really be talking about...

Oh well...

Lord Rad
Great Reader

United Kingdom
2080 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 11:43:30

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

Thanks Rad...It's actually part of a BIG project that I, and a number of other members of the D&D online community are developing...But it's supposed to be a secret, and not something that I should really be talking about...

Oh well...

Sounds good Sage!

Hope to see more of it!

'sup, Toril not big enough for ya?!

Lord Rad

"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 11:54:39

Actually, Toril, as well as Krynn, Oerth, Mystara, and a number of other well-known Material Planes will be a very 'BIG' part of this project...

As to seeing more, well, there's a PDF due out sometime towards the end of this year which will completely detail all the aspects of this 'project', but for now, I'm just content to let others know what we are working on (in part), and provide a few previews along the way...

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:00:42

The Believers of the Source from the Planescape setting (also known as the Godsmen) believe that all things spring from the same source. Every living thing (and every unliving thing) is one and the same, forever and eternally being tempered and tested on the forge of reality to become greater than it is. Even the powers originally were less than they were, coming into creation from the naked Source just like everything else.

Furthermore, most Godsmen seem to think that the closest you can get to a *place* of creation, where the Source is 'purer' or closer to Genesis than anywhere else is the Ethereal plane. They seem to think that this plane of boiling potential and proto-matter, from which the prime material *material* seems to have evolved from, is the first plane that came into existence.

Thus, the ethereal genesis theory: The ethereal came first, and from it the Inner/Elemental planes were born, out of pure proto-matter. This matter then congloomerated and became the Prime Material. Living things evolved and started to believe. Belief made the Outer planes, and the Astral was a gateway of nonexistence to them.

What do you think? Is this the only theory that has merit, or is this ridiculously simple?

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:02:11

Now thing is, a fundamental paradoxial question comes up from this:

Did the multiverse first exist with or without a thought? You see, the Ethereal is SPACE and MATTER incarnate, while the Astral is MIND and THOUGHT incarnate. Did the multiverse create sentient beings which created the Outer Planes, or was there the thought which spawned the rest of creation -- thus the Astral coming first?

It's much like Big Bang Theory vs. Creation Theory. In the beginning was there formless probability that just happened -- out of infinite happenstance and possibility -- to begin to spawn mini-universes that grew and grew and became all the other planes, etc? Or was there in the beginning one thought that spun belief and thus mighty creatures forged more belief into places and more creatures, etc.?

It's hard to say which way it was, when dealing with infinities. Any and all possibilities have a distinct chance of occuring over any infinite timeline in infinite space with infinite possibilities co-mingling, etc.

This might be but one of an infinite number of MULTIVERSES yet, or "frequencies" or "wavelengths" of realities. Dimensions outside of the usual planar cosmologies.

I'm not sure if I'm being clear enough here, and I hope I get my general thesis across.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:04:01

Here's something else to consider -

Aristotle distinguished between form and substance (though he didn't use those exact words, being a Greek and all). Matter is the stuff that things are made of, and form gives it shape. A human "soul" is the Form of the body, and what causes the raw elements to be human and not a beaver or a rock.

Using Aristotle's ideas as a starting point, the Outer Planes are the source of Form, and the Inner Planes are the source of matter. Where the two meet, there are trees, mountains, animals and sentients. In places with matter but no form, the elements are raw and without shape or firm dimension or space as we understand it. The borders leak and there's only infinity after infinity of material. In places with form but no matter, everything is mutable, dependent on the belief of those whose matter gives them solidity.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:05:16

Now, the only thing wrong with this theory is that, by following this train of Form -- err thought, it would be that the Ethereal is the Matter and the Astral is the Form components in a cosmology... Where the respective elements are in their most pure state.

However, the Astral is proven to not be as mutable as one would imagine an entire universe of Form-ness might be -- or as you stated. It actually seems quite the opposite; it is mostly static and unchanging. Would this Form actually be preconceived notions that cannot be gotten rid of, or are they undeniable Facts of our sheer state of existence that cannot be altered?

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:06:33

So, technically, Aristotle's and Plato's idea of Form *is* completely static and unchanging, but the Astral and Outer Planes are anything but. The Outer Planes are the home of concepts that have gained some degree of permenance because they're believed in by a lot of people at once. The Astral is the home of the ephemeral thought, the lone dream, and dead concepts no longer believed in. There forms blow about like winds, mercurial, ellusive, and never quite there. The divine islands decay slowly, stirring occasionally before falling into deeper and deeper sleeps, becoming more and more unrecognizable as the endless winds wear them away.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:08:08

Now, in order to bring some Realms discussion into this scroll - In a sense, any of the dead gods contains this version of the story of the Multiverse, or at least the greatest stories ever told:

We are on the Astral, standing atop the body of Bhaal, a deity of Death. He was once a mortal, then he underwent apotheosis. Then he reigned as a god. Then he was slain by another mortal, Cyric, who carried a god, Mask as a sword. Over yonder is Amaunator, an older deity from the same world.

Anyhow, when Bhaal was a man, the matter that built him up was once in the Inner Planes, and before that in the Ethereal. The protomatter starts in the Ethereal, flows into the Inner, creates the Prime, which in turn fuels the belief that is the Outer, which causes beings like Bhaal here to ascend to one of the most awesome states in the Multiverse: a deity.

But now, he is here, in the Astral. The journey began in the Ethereal and ends here in the Astral. Life is the equilibrium of matter-energy between the two. All creatures travel a great circuit, whether they know it or not. And this is the end. When its reached its highest state, it comes here to expire.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:10:34

Here's another alternate theory that you may wish to consider.

The multiverse is made of spheres and cycles - the Unity of Rings. Potential from the Ethereal Plane feeds the actuality of the Inner Planes, which bleed back into the Ether, creating great washes of para-elemental color until everything fades back into gray, misty potential once more. The cycle of potential and actuality keeps the multiverse fertile.

Other planes - demiplanes, material spheres, more - bud, split, and spawn in the great uterine bath of the Ethereal Mists, creating smaller demiplanes and planar spore that might eventually evolve into something greater. This is another cycle.

Here's another theory: there were originally two seperate multiversal cosmologies. One was ruled by law, and one was ruled by chaos. The planes of Law were timeless, without beginning or end or change. They had Matter, and Form, and the World Between, and transitive realms dividing them. The planes of Chaos were flux and transformation, continual creation and destruction. Any divisions were subject to rupture and reversal, and leaks and tears were the only constant. Positive and negative energy are both Chaos' children, and without them ethereal protomatter cannot become actual, and elemental matter cannot break down into protomatter again.

It was not until the planes of Law and the planes of Chaos and married that change came to the Divisions, and divisions came to Change.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:12:11

So, what do we end up with then...

In the begining... who knows?

This is not the story of the begining, but the story of what came after, or at least what I think might have happened.

There were the four elements and two energies. Alchemists and wizards have discovered that these four elements and two energies compose everything. They are the most basic building blocks in the multiverse, or at least the building blocks of the prime worlds. And after the begining they were all that was. At first, they were seperate, but in time reality itself began to fray on their edges, and the elements mixed. At first, the only result were the quasi- and paraelemental planes. But there, at the edge of reality, it all merged together, not just one or two elements, but a soup of all of them. This is what we now know as proto-matter, and in time, as reality frayed further and further, stretched by the proto-matter entering into it, it became a place in and of itself, called the Etheral.

There, though a slow process of accretion, matter continued to form out of the elements. Over time they formed natural demiplanes (as we know them now) and eventually formed into full worlds, what we know now as crystal spheres. And there, life had a chance to truely begin.

There, truely sentient beings emerged (elementals may have existed earlier, but they aren't truley sentient, or at least weren't at the time. Djin and the like later immigrated there). There, sentient beings first looked around and began to think. Thinking, not just the animal thought of the animals, but real thought was new. And thought, dreams, ideas have a life of their own, and no matter what youv'e been told, they don't die when thier creator does. No, ideas that don't have a tinker anymore have to go somewhere, and so a new plane came into being, the Astral. Thoughts still go there, to this day. A billion billion memory cores float in the Silver Void, and dead gods of forgotten ideals decompose there.

And ideas have inertia. Much like the protomatter in the Ethereal, ideas accumulate, they build, and solidify and soon they were things, then places. They, too, became places in their own right. Seemingly physical, because people believed in the physical, of no more solid a stuff than song and memory and hate and joy. They became the Outer Planes, and the peoples of the Prime worlds imagined all manner of creatures that might populate such places. And so they were.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:14:33

So I think we can probably all argue that the Inner Planes have not one, but two beginnings.

The obvious one is the Ethereal, the plane of potential. That has already been discussed.

The less obvious one is the Ordial, the plane of recombination (and mysterious glyph-carvers). The Inner Planes were made from the Outer Planes by the arcane practices of alien beings, or as some sort of side effect of primordial believing. The base of reality was somehow made from the ideas of it, which are ultimately made from the base again.

But that's wrong. The Inner Planes have an infinite number of origins. Or at least three.

Reading Terry Pratchett's book Strata, we learn of a place where everything is created by living creatures, back to the primal alien race that made hydrogen atoms?

Anyway, then the Material Plane(s) has at least three origins, too: the Outer Planes, the Inner Planes, and the Ethereal directly. The Astral isn't made of thoughts, per se; it shouldn't even have thoughts in it. It's just that things like thoughts and dreams and magic thrive and gain solidity in a zero-dimensional environment, and once there, nothing ever goes away.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:16:49

quote:
Using Aristotle's ideas as a starting point, the Outer Planes are the source of Form, and the Inner Planes are the source of matter. Where the two meet, there are trees, mountains, animals and sentients. In places with matter but no form, the elements are raw and without shape or firm dimension or space as we understand it.

Now that I actually think about it, I do not think that this is entirely correct. Form and matter cannot be discussed separately, but only as a whole. To Aristotle, perfection is in general (that which makes a cornugon a cornugon and not this or that cornugon), but this general lies within, and matter and form, two abstract concepts cannot be extracted from the subject in question and discussed in and of themselves. What I mean by this is that the Inner Planes are not a source of matter more than they are a source of form. For air is only air if it has form, this form defining it as air and not negative energy, and so on. Therefore I must disagree with the statement that there are "places with matter but no form". Form is inherent to matter, if you will.

With this is mind, the Ethereal and Astral are equal as reguards fundamental purpose. Both are as much matter as form, so following this train of thought, one cannot ascertain that one must be prior to the other.

The spirit could indeed be equated to form (though I for one disagree), but thought and belief have nothing to do with it. The Astral is no more a concentration of form than a demiplane is.
Concept, as defined in the outer planes is not form. A concept is dynamic, while form is static and always equal to itself. The outer planes are concept, and thus they are ever changing and becoming. A concept, if you will, is the result of creative thought, a creation emerging from within and projected without, while actually only existing within it's creator. Form however, is the exact opposite. It exists without, as a blue-print, but is manifested within, as norm and finality (of course, the source of form could be considered as within, if one attributes sentience to the multiverse).

To conclude this portion of my rambling, this chain of thought cannot shed any light as to the question of which came first, Inner or Outer, Ethereal or Astral. If anything, it would suggest they they came simultaneously as each is dependent on the other for it's existence.

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 12:19:46

Alternatively, form could be considered in another way -

The 'form' that I spoke of earlier describes something that is more akin to a mapping. Some elementary mathematics might clear things up.

Consider the (linear, but that is not important here) mapping, y=2x for positive integers x, y.

The mapping defines a rule. In this case, if say, x=5, then y is twice that, or 10.

This mapping also has an inverse. If say, y=14, then x is half that, or 7.

Enough algebra then.

I used the example of form shaping matter to its fit. Now consider that there is a mapping that takes matter and transforms it into a human. Another mapping takes matter and transforms it into a beaver.

For the first, we have matter |--> human. Perhaps there also exists an inverse, such that for all humans you can get protomatter, whatever that is.

For the second we have matter |--> beaver. An inverse might also exist.

Does the mapping from human to beaver exist? Some might call it magic. Would its inverse be more spectacular?

I said above, that "Form is inherent to matter." Now, perhaps matter has a preferred form (I like to think the form of a pretty woman, myself, and quite frequently at that), but I think that we would be ignoring exciting possibilities if we were to confine matter to a solid, immutable form, fixed for the ages. That seems rather boring, and I should like to think the Multiverse a more exciting place than that.

The same part of that post also goes on to say, "two abstract concepts cannot be extracted from the subject in question and discussed in and of themselves." If this is so, then I am obviously not being nearly abstract enough.

Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe

USA
337 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 14:32:18

I would say some being made them. Or perhaps a faied or successful exparament of someone in another dimension (spelled right? I dont thi dont think so). The reason for this is because all of the gods minus three or four of them in the D&D version of them started out as "normal chars" Or NPC-Non-Gods. They worked their way into getting followers etc, and then someone gained powers. There are two gods actually who were hot for each other in Mortal life and continue to be just that in their god hood. So that simply shows that the gods were normal people. Infact a PC can become a god as well. It just takes some time. So really you cant say that any of the gods made the prime planes. However, perhaps Odin did. He is the only god who ( and Im using second edition stuff for this) From what I remember, was the only god who did not start out as a normal. And from him he created his underlings etc. Another way to look at it is that perhaps something like say the titans, made the prime plans. Of course this would mean there would be titans for each prime plane, or perhaps they thought they hould make others when then were done making one. Titans after all always seem to be very strongly attuned to an element. But mh im just a crazy man. Dont take my word for it. Or do, there is sometimes great wisdom in the insane.

"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"

Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles

"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah

I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me

The Cardinal
Senior Scribe

Canada
647 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2004 : 23:41:15

Yesss... the line between wisdom and insanity is a short one.... We know some even now moan in horror as we now add our say to this, but we are free so say as we please.

At any rate let us begin. Now We have followed (as best as our confusion will allow at times) what you have said Sage. But We feel you have made one flaw, this flaw is the Ordered state in which you seem to (at times) present the information. Granted that most things and creations are based upon such orderly states.

Most things (be they Toril or whatever world) started with nothing. Then became something. However It is said that Lord Ao created the universe after which followed was timeless nothingness. However, there is no mention that there was not something before. For there to be nothing there must have been something. Or even to take another example as a Balloon (Universe) fills with air (matter, etc) It would displace what was before.

To say what we say bluntly, There was other things before toril, that the Matter, and souls inhabit a realm that is pushing outwards upon the nothingness that pushes outwards on what came before. For all our theories come upon the fact that there was ALWAYS nothingness before the creation.... We think we are having trouble.... Let us take a Balloon again (or bubble), fill it with the nothingness we speak of. Then from that nothingness we shall create the world. Expand the bubble (as we know it shall with new creations) Upon reaching a critical mass, a new bubble forms within that as another seeks to create anew (lord Ao let us say) Lord Ao creates his nothingness, then As Toril's universe grow another nothingness forms within Toril's bubble as something eles wishes to create anew. Now then, Toril would sit within yet beside one bubble, while now being bordered by another. Thus we could say the Older bubble is that of say Greyhawk, Toril, and the new Ebberron is now the newer bubble within/Beside toril. Now then Where did the matter come from to form the Ebberron, or even toril? We say it was borrowed/stolen from the founding bubble. thus the Bubble's layer becomes the nothingness boundry and the bubble becomes the newer universe. As a newer bubble forms the older expands as expected.

However there is a point where the epansion of the older bubbles is almost non-existent as the needed area of matter is not enough to keep the pressure thus as the newer bubble expands. Thus the Bubble will either pop (unlikely) Or merges with the already old but newer bubble that was within/beside it. This could be thought of the secret of the Deep Ethereal as things become hazy to all.

Now this would also shatter the idea that the worlds were created out of nothingness, for the nothingness of which we would speak would be the illusion and that the creation is born not out of nothing, but out of something, out of everything. We understand what we may say is not clear (perhaps even made more difficult as it is WE who are trying to say it).

Now where do the outter and Inner planes sit in all this? Well the terms are vulgar as they give the impression that they sit inside and outside the prime. However what if they be not areas or spheres that sit within and witout, but moreso colums that stretch like invisible beams through the various bubbles.

This, when we first thought about would destroy the theory we held that Mechanus sits at the center of the Multiverse. But think about it now we would still be correct in this thinking. For Unlike many of the elemental planes, and perhaps the outer planes are more like color or heat codings that sit invisibly as the bubbles (the worlds) get older. Thus, we say the Mechanus still sits at teh center where creation is (perhaps that is what Mechanus' purpose is. It is the gargantuan spawning machine of these new bubbles), While Limbo sits at the furthest reaches, just before things taper off the the Deep Ethereal and eventually the Far Realms. Thus The Abyss would sit in a quater perhaps bordering with other realms of Chaos beside it, and realms of perhaps neurtality infront of it, while While Limbo is behind. This would also explain the inevitable Decay of things from Order to chaos.

So the final plane would look more like several spheres set within one another, and at the outer most spheres things become blurry, eventually becoming Deep Etheral and eventually Far Realms (perhaps) These bubbles (if viewed by some greater 'thing') Would be pierced into four quarters by four beams of the Elemental realms each beam being one elemental realm and set at polar opposites (thus fire and water, Earth and Air, etc). Finally Mechanus would be at the center, it's gears moving powering the machine that spawns ever newer bubble realms within one another, while Limbo is set at the outer edges where the bubbles seem to merge and become blurred, just before the deep Etheral, and possibly the Far Realms. Behind Mechanus are the Lawful Realms set in a sphereical design and divied in to three areas (The Lawful Good realms, Lawful Neutral realms and the Lawful Evil Realms), with a sphereical pattern of the Neutral realms (Good evil and Neutral again) behind them with the Final Chaotical realms bringin up the rear (Good evil and Neural), and as you reach the end you once again pass the Ring of Limbo with it eventuall becoming the Deep Ethereal, and again, possibly the Far Realms.

Granted this all may be a bit far fetched, but it would not only explain the HOW for prime worlds, it also gives both Mechanus' gears a meaning, and the Meaning to Limbo (rather than them just simply being there, but now with purpose) as well as the eventual decay of things from order to Chaos, Good and evil are more on the sidelines, they are they but no longer the 'upper' and 'lower' 'outer' planes. This also reorginizes the ideas of the 'inner' planes. In effect this is a new cosmotology all together... Something we did not set out to do. Although this seems to make things revolve around the Prime Materal plane as things should with the 'outer' and 'inner' planes not really being as inside or outside the prime but within and through the various primes..... Well if you can follow Us (which we don't blame you if you can't.... we had a hard time doing so too

) feel free to let us know what you think.

Edit Notes: Now then as Limbo would eventually be created but the bubbles... the question we end up with in this proposed cosmotology is What Designed, Engineered and Created Mechanus, the Prime Spawning Plane/Machine? We can only come up with one being... The Master Architect...

It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown

Edited by - The Cardinal on 13 Feb 2004 23:51:09

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 07:09:44

Hmm...you have raised some very interesting points Cardinal, so much so, that I may adjust a portion of the theories that I have presented here thus far.

Although, I do believe that you have polarised the planar structure too early within the creation period of the multiverse. Reading through a number of the earlier PS tomes, it makes mention of the fact that before the coming of Jazirian and Ahriman, most of the multiverse existed as a void of chaos for a very long time, and until the forming of the Outlands, there were no Material Planes in existence.

There is some conflict here though, because their are two different (and accepted) versions of planar creation...

The Cardinal
Senior Scribe

Canada
647 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 07:34:55

Well, we have made it known that our knowledge of all things both Torilian and D&D based are based upon what knowledge we have. Knowledge that only begins with third edition. Like the Ancient Netheril, we sift and find only fragments of the earlier editions that we incorperate into our fountain. And if something doesn't fit... we 'make' it fit...

Remember though.. insanity is as much as blessing as it is a curse... or is that the other way around....

Granted we know what we build is upon naught but sand, air or marsh, but as the saying goes:

" Everyone said it was daft to build a Castle in the swamp, but I built it all the same just to show them... It sunk into the swamp. So I built a second one, that sunk into the swamp. So I built a third one, that burned down, fell over, THEN sunk into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up!"

It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown

Edited by - The Cardinal on 14 Feb 2004 07:57:54

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 08:10:33

Actually I was building upon 1st and 2nd edition knowledge, then tracing the trends (backwards) from what we now know in 3e D&D, and other third-party sourcebooks on the planes.

The Cardinal
Senior Scribe

Canada
647 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 08:19:33

I assumed as much though Sage... For from our own findings, and what we have gathered from You and Bookwyrm, The Cosmotology was much more 'together' in past relation to itself than the 3E. Why Wizard seemed to mess up a good thing, we do not know... But perhaps they will read all of our posts come to their senses and put the planes back together.... *Sigh* The mad can dream can't we?

Besides, for knowing little about earlier planes ( only from what we've read from posts here, and ALOT of BSing... We have a BS in BS

) We've managed to paste toegether a nice little cosmos idea no?... Perhaps I shall use it in any games I run...

It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 08:24:23

Indeed we have Cardinal...In fact you've just 'hit the nail on the head' so to speak in regards to what the nature of the project is, that I am working on...A complete and utter reworking of the entire multiversal comsological structure.

The Cardinal
Senior Scribe

Canada
647 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 08:37:19

Amazing what maddness and dumb luck can stumble upon, no? Oh, well, first rule of adventuring and such: Go with your Gut instinct... Second rule? Always remember to eat healthy, Adventurers are the prime source of a well rounded Dragon diet.

..

Although we do appologize for stumbling upon it... though as you should know we have a habit of stumbling in on what you are working on Sage...

However if you ever require the input of us, you need but ask. After all, We joined not only to gain realmslore. But After seeing how wise you and Bookwyrm are, we decided you would be perfect ~~test subje~~.... errr Masters of Realmslore to bounce our insane ideas off of. Shake you two up a bit and show you perspectives you might not have seen or known are out there... and as everyone knows... We are 'Out there'.

It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 08:43:06

I appreciate the support Cardinal.

We are in fact looking to expand the 'creative team' once work on the Ordials are completed. Most likely we will start with the reworked notes we have written-up on the Outlands/Concordat Opposition/Nexus Spire.

So, if you're still interested, I let you know when you can expect, the CALL...

The Cardinal
Senior Scribe

Canada
647 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 09:18:26

We will await... but be aware of the dangers you face. We are a fool

, a tyrant

, and a madman

... We can bring both Tymora

and Beshaba's

gaze upon your project... But enough of that, Let us return to the topic at hand no? I fear my Protection from Moderator spell might end quickly...

It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31799 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2004 : 12:53:06

Well, I'm going to be posting a preview of an Ordial (or maybe a complete plane) of sorts very soon (along with that Monk PrC I keep meaning to finish up). The neat thing about it's actual creation is that it is generalised enough to use within the Realms cosmology as well, so any FR DM may find some use with it...

Edited by - The Sage on 14 Feb 2004 12:54:12

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2004 : 16:50:32

Interesting stuff. Reminds me of my own discusions on cosmology. Just remember, "Big Bang" and "Creationism" aren't mutually exclusive.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.

Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2004 : 17:01:17

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

1. A significant stable chunk of protomatter from the ethreal. Use demiplane seed or genesis or whatever to begin forming the physics and "reality" of this domain.

Hmm. Sounds like another world-making process I've seen . . . .

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.

The Cardinal
Senior Scribe

Canada
647 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2004 : 19:15:19

Bookwyrm! We know not of Sage, but as for ourselves, your input was sorely missed

. Glad you finally decieded to add to this scroll.

It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown

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