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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36966 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Apr 2015 : 14:44:21
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well thats not cool. Eric has done a ton of work and tried to make a living off it and you are mad at him because of someone elses decision.
I can understand your frustration at WoTC for again making the wrong decision (Assuming they have made one).
For the love of Lurue, can we stop blaming WotC for this when there is absolutely no evidence they are even aware of his work?
There is literally nothing -- not even a single quote from those in the know -- that says WotC is sitting on this. Not a single quote saying he submitted it to them. There is literally zero evidence that WotC has even seen this potential book, or knows anything about it.
And yet people keep bitching about them choosing not to publish it. 
Unless you have some sort of evidence that WotC has taken steps to insure this book will never be released anywhere, STOP SAYING THAT THEY HAVE.
And yes, I'm aware that I'm shouting. I've pointed out already that there is no reason to assume the worst of WotC in this scenario, and yet people keep doing it. When there is a legitimate reason to complain about something WotC has or has not done, I'm happy to complain about it or sit back and let others do so. But there is no legitimate reason, in this particular case, to complain about WotC.
Get mad at them all you want, just stop getting mad because of your own assumptions and prejudices. Get mad for the right reasons, not the wrong ones. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2015 : 14:53:53
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well thats not cool. Eric has done a ton of work and tried to make a living off it and you are mad at him because of someone elses decision.
I can understand your frustration at WoTC for again making the wrong decision (Assuming they have made one).
And I can understand that you want to be part of the inner circle (although to be honest I imagine it more as a group of friends) because I would love to be part of it as well, but having a go because they didnt keep you included on their creations isnt the right way to go. The hype is probably more my fault because I really want to know all I can about it.
I'm going to try and be very direct in clarifying what I said.
I have nothing against Eric Boyd, other than the fact that he sometimes shares his work-in-progress with people who talk too much. I have been a fan of his published work. I totally understand that designers often need commentary from other designers, good editors, and so on.
The reality seems to be that Eric has created material for his family and close friends, focusing on expanding Illefarn and fleshing out the High Forest. That's excellent. For additional input, commentary, and perhaps ideas or editing, he has shared it with a couple other former designers and one or more Scribes. Great, I have no real issues with that.
My issue is with posts like Markustay's in this thread, and others scattered around this website forum, where the people who have seen that material are teasing the vastly larger group of Scribes who are not part of any inner circle of former part-time designers. And yes, the boys club exists - to deny its existence at this point is naive.
Is any of this work, any of it at all, anywhere close to being published? Has it even been formally submitted in any form to WotC? I don't know. The vast majority of us don't know.
But what I do know is that WotC has been playing the hype game for years now, teasing this and that, and the reality for WotC has never turned out to be as good as their hype. Too many teased and canceled things, too many times when they've talked about amazing and awesome stuff just a couple years away that never materializes. Too many examples of "well, this was part of a lot of material that was sent in to WotC and it was bought" but then only a fraction of it gets used in WotC's MMO or Encounters series.
With posts like Markustay's, and a fair number of others around this site, we're now getting the same flavor of OMGAMAZING hype language that WotC has been doing for years. Oh, it's not just one book that's done, it's at least two - AND IT COULD BE AS MANY AS NINE! Yeah, okay. Nine possible books that have maybe a 5% chance of being seen by anyone outside of the small in-group.
Hype is annoying as hell, whether it comes from WotC or a group of former part-time designers. Particularly when the hype gets stretched out over years.
Seriously, what is the point of that kind of talk, if not to hype people up? But if this is something that isn't near or in the publication stage, if it perhaps hasn't even been submitted or still needs a lot of revisions or additional material BEFORE even submitting it for consideration, why are you talking about it?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2015 : 16:15:52
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Phrases like "inner circle" and " boys club" suggest elitism and arrogance. It conjures the idea of one set of people being above everybody else.
Why infuse the discussion with ideas like that? Why suggest it when there has never been a case of George or Eric or Markus lording it over anyone else?
There is no difference between what Eric does and what I do, except that he's about a million times better at it and he has access to perhaps the best lore collector there is in George. I have to collect all of my own lore and I only recently decided to share the results of my hard work collecting lore for Eye on the Realms articles (because it was MY hard work) with the public. Before that I shared it with a couple of people. I am still on the fence about sharing my novel lore collection.
My point is, why can't they be treated like all other Scribes? As fans? Why is it necessary to think of them as something above everybody else?
It's disengenuous to think of them not as fans, because they are fans and always have been.
And while somebody hinting at Eric's work may be annoying [i]to you[/], it does not follow it's annoying to everyone else. Eltheron, you do realize we're on a fan website, yes? The question of why people are talking about new material should be obvious.
That, and Eric's work is high quality. People recognize that. Sometimes it's too dense for my tastes, but I am not going to begrudge anyone else their enthusiasm just because of that.
Let people have their fun. It's why we are here. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 12 Apr 2015 16:17:55 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2015 : 16:38:06
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I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth. I've learned over the last few years that my views aren't shared by the majority. Instead I'll say that if/when *I* hype something, it has a couple of aims. In no particular order (A) draw those who are interested to whatever I'm talking about -- hey, here's some development in the Old Empires, if you like it awesome, if not carry on; (B) encourage anyone who might be thinking about it to go ahead and write & release their own developments -- if I can do it, anyone can; (C) elicit interest/feedback -- if it sounds like nobody cares, then I'll ease up on that project and look for something else to make people happy.
Unfortunately, I always seem to roll a 1 on my saving throw to remain focused on a target. So I work on something for a little bit and then shortly there's at least 5 other things competing for my time and energy. I suspect I'm not totally alone in that but some of us have it worse than others. Doesn't reduce my motivation to develop the Realms... just my efficiency.
As for the "boy's club" of course it exists, but I don't think it has the intent of generating the frustration you're feeling. Every author needs a circle. For feedback, editing, fact checking, inspiration, and keeping our nose to the grindstone. Having a circle doesn't guarantee anything, but we suffer if we don't have it.
Starting on a project doesn't guarantee that it will be finished. Having a circle doesn't guarantee that it will be finished to our standards.
Sure, many of us fans are foaming at the mouth grabbing for *any* Realmslore. But our opinion of Eric's work is so high precisely because he polishes it to the circle's standards before releasing it. If he jumps the gun, there's an increased chance of inconsistencies and gaps, which ultimately lower our opinion and more importantly his good feeling about his work. That helps no one in the long run.
High standards slow things down, but they're necessary.
Just my two cents on the topic, without trying to be a point by point direct response.  |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2015 : 18:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
My point is, why can't they be treated like all other Scribes? As fans? Why is it necessary to think of them as something above everybody else?
I'm only going to respond to the parts of this that aren't complete drivel, or attempts to put words into my mouth.
Why? Because they aren't the same. They have a publication track record, and they have something of a fan following of their own. People heap praise on them for their good works, deservedly so if you like their work.
Even this website doesn't treat them as regular Scribes, many have their own dedicated Q&A threads, or multiple dedicated threads.
quote:
It's disengenuous to think of them not as fans, because they are fans and always have been.
I never said that they weren't fans.
quote:
Eltheron, you do realize we're on a fan website, yes? The question of why people are talking about new material should be obvious.
Get it through your head: we are NOT talking about new material here, or anything confirmed for publication. It's perhaps not even been considered yet for publication. It's a work-in-progress until Eric says otherwise. THAT is why it's annoying when someone who has seen a DRAFT waltzes in here and says, "hey guys, this is complete and it's magnificent - it's so awesome that two books could be made, heck, I'm certain NINE books could come of this!"
Did Markus or whomever else has seen it even have permission from Eric to talk about it? At all?
Regular fans/Scribes will of course run wild with any tidbit of any little hint of something that might happen. That's fandom. But it's extremely inner circle behavior to let people know that you've seen something "done" that others haven't, to pump people up over things that may never see the light of day.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
As for the "boy's club" of course it exists, but I don't think it has the intent of generating the frustration you're feeling. Every author needs a circle. For feedback, editing, fact checking, inspiration, and keeping our nose to the grindstone. Having a circle doesn't guarantee anything, but we suffer if we don't have it.
I absolutely agree with this: every author needs a circle to give feedback, even editing and suggestions, fact-checking and so on.
However, as you said, there's a reason why it's a bad idea to tease and hype something too early.
Let's say we find out down the line that WotC passed on it - for whatever reason. If a few "amazing" details have been spilled, even though we really don't know what this manuscript is, people will be prompted to become even angrier at WotC - and yet, most have seen nothing. And I'll say again: we don't even know if it's been offered to WotC at the idea level. Already in this thread people are angry at WotC for not accepting it - and we don't even know if they know about it.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 12 Apr 2015 18:43:55 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6447 Posts |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2015 : 21:22:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Why? Because they aren't the same. They have a publication track record, … many have their own dedicated Q&A threads, or multiple dedicated threads.
Nothing in what you say here describes inner circle boys club.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I never said that they weren't fans.
But that sure as hell is not the message you’re sending in each of your posts. You’re hyping this artificial reality where there is an “us” and a “them.”
No such thing exists.
Some former designers are working on a project that may or may not see the light of day. That’s it.
Anything else is just make believe.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Get it through your head: we are NOT talking about new material here,
Yes, we are.
People wouldn’t be excited otherwise. Also, the definition of “new material” is not “material destined for future publication and/or free release to the public.”
According to Markus, one work is complete and another is mostly complete, and the project—whose outcome nobody has determined, mind—has grown beyond even that…and he’s excited about it and thinks we should be too and that we ought to talk it up, all in the same post where he encouraged others to talk up the Realms in general.
There is nothing at all wrong with people being excited about new Realms material, just as there is nothing wrong with trying to get people to be enthusiastic so WotC takes a look at what’s being worked on—which is the answer, by the way, to your question about what the point is in all the talking and hints about these projects.
Your point of view seems to be that all the talk is just disingenuous hype with no predetermined outcome. Of course, nobody anywhere has promised an outcome.
When you say Markus is “leading people on,” you are not in fact telling the truth.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
But it's extremely inner circle behavior to let people know that you've seen something "done" that others haven't, to pump people up over things that may never see the light of day.
We’re on a fan website. You’ve already shown you recognize that some of the project people have a following. Why is it so hard to understand that people might be excited, even if they don’t know what the ultimate fate of the work will be?
We’re all (well, mostly) grown ups here. Those of us who don’t engage in perpetually negative thinking and whining for its own sake do not need concrete reassurances and ironclad guarantees before we lend our enthusiasm to a project.
I for one am excited to see what they come up with. If all we get are hints and snippets for a long time to come, that’s fine. If it’s good material, it will find its way out eventually.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 12 Apr 2015 21:25:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36966 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2015 : 03:57:40
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well for once I wasnt bashing or intending to bash WoTC or anyone else. I just wanted to know what was happening with the book.
I dont like whats happening now though so can we close and hopefully delete this thread.
i only hope eric and george havent read it recently
I will agree that this thread has served its purpose, and honor the request to close it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Eric Boyd's New Sourcebook
Topic Locked
