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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 04:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
Apart from that and much more important, I also found it pretty weak in terms of writing. flat dialogues, context, atmosphere, story arc....
Really? I consider these some of Sage Schend's strengths when it comes to his writing. I appreciate the amount of complexity Steven often introduces into the dialogue of his characters, and I don't really think of it as "flat." The dialogue is often a wonderful example of how I'd imagine the regular Realms verbal interplay exists in places like Waterdeep, for example.
Well, I did not mean "flat" in the sense of "little complex". 
It is exactly that kind of verbal interplay that I personally do not like. The type of flat comments/jokes or wise instructions on behalf of the Sword-Coast-Allstars towards Raegar and Tsarra for example is just the kind of dialogues that I perceive as flat.  Flat also because dozens of characters get launched into the setting without having a chance of being thoroughly introduced and thus always remain shallow.
Discussing this would probably lead to nothing as it is simply a matter of personal taste.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Just out of curiosity, which Realms novels do you consider succeeding at the elements you've discussed here?
First of all of course several series (WotSQ, everything from Kemp, almost everything I have read so far from Elaine, ...).
But that comparison is not fair because Blackstaff is a stand alone novel. So in terms of Stand Alone I'd name for example City of Ravens, Shadow's Witness, Black Bouquet, etc and if you take the Waterdeep setting, then also Downshadow.
But again, it is a matter of personal taste.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
I feel it is rather a realms supplement than a novel as it provides lots of lore without being an entertaining read as a novel
I actually prefer my FR novels to function in such a way. But it's a rare occurrence, unfortunately. I've only experienced such writing-trends from Ed, Steven and, more recently, Erik Scott de Bie.
Well exactly, that is what you are looking for. I have a different approach when it comes to FR novels. I want them to make me dive into the realms and feel, smell and taste them. Read more about characters than just their name, function and a few dialogues. I felt this novel was too superficial regarding those variables.
I could add much more, but again: I am convinced that Blackstaff is exactly the type of novel that works perfectly for you and others too, but it is far away from what I like about realms novels.
Remember we had that discussion already with City of Splendors? I didn't like it and so far it has been the only book from Elaine that I did not rave about. Maybe I have a problem with all those Waterdeep All Star characters. They tend to get less well developed in novels than "new" characters...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I can't quite agree with your Blackstaff "not being an entertaining read." Its been one of the few Realms novel highlights that I've read in the last few years. And I plan to re-visit it every time I've got a reading gap in my schedule, because I doubt I've yet managed to catch every little tidbit of Realmslore Steven wrote into the book.
Well that's perfectly fine Sage. I did not say the book "is" not entertaining or Steven "is" a bad writer.  I just said this particular book did not work out for me. There can never be an objective point of view on a matter like a FR novel.
Now, as long as you and me keep on reading FR novels and apart from a few exceptions continue enjoying it, everything's in perfect order I guess...  |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 07:50:43
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quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
Well, I did not mean "flat" in the sense of "little complex".
It is exactly that kind of verbal interplay that I personally do not like. The type of flat comments/jokes or wise instructions on behalf of the Sword-Coast-Allstars towards Raegar and Tsarra for example is just the kind of dialogues that I perceive as flat. Flat also because dozens of characters get launched into the setting without having a chance of being thoroughly introduced and thus always remain shallow.
Discussing this would probably lead to nothing as it is simply a matter of personal taste.
Aye.
Still, I feel this kind of style helps to convey the overarching "metropolis" type feel that blankets the entire City of Splendors. It's simply too big and too vast for any particular focus for any lengthy period of time. There's just always something happening somewhere, and the characters are almost always in the thick of it. But, ah well.
quote:
Well exactly, that is what you are looking for. I have a different approach when it comes to FR novels. I want them to make me dive into the realms and feel, smell and taste them. Read more about characters than just their name, function and a few dialogues. I felt this novel was too superficial regarding those variables.
Strange. I thought Steven actually helped the reader to learn a little about the motivations behind each of the characters in Blackstaff by the way he wrote about them. It wasn't really "in" the dialogue, as such. But, rather, how they acted and how they related with the rest of the cast.
quote:
I could add much more, but again: I am convinced that Blackstaff is exactly the type of novel that works perfectly for you and others too, but it is far away from what I like about realms novels.
Perhaps I should clarify my earlier point. I like this style of novel "for Waterdeep." As I said above, it helps to underline the cosmopolitan-nature of the city. I get the same kind of feeling from Elaine's early "Songs & Swords" books too. But I'm not sure it would work for Suzail, for example. Ed admirably conveys the life and times of that city through his "Knights of Myth Drannor" trilogy.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 03 Jul 2009 07:51:32 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 11:18:24
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| Just finished City of the Dead, and was mightily pleased by it. Rosemary Jones is now up on my list of writers I'd tell someone thinking of dipping their toes into the Realms to start with. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 14:33:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye.
Still, I feel this kind of style helps to convey the overarching "metropolis" type feel that blankets the entire City of Splendors. It's simply too big and too vast for any particular focus for any lengthy period of time. There's just always something happening somewhere, and the characters are almost always in the thick of it. But, ah well.
I think you have a good point there! This is probably why the Waterdeep settings and characters do not work for me.
It didnīt bother me in Songs&Swords and Downshadow though, as the emphasis is on new characters and the story, rather than city and famous NPCs.
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"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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mnb128
Learned Scribe
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 14:58:47
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Thornhold is now completed and I'm happy to say it was my 100th Realms novel. Of course, that's including Into the Void and The Radiant Dragon, which technically are Spelljammer setting novels but take place partially in the realms. If it takes place in the Realms then it's a Realms novel to me.
With that in mind, are there any other novels that were released under a different setting but take place at least partially in the Realms? The only one I know of other than the two listed above is Vampires of the Mist from the Ravenloft setting.
Back to Thornhold, I thought it was typical Cunningham novel, which is a good thing. Exciting, entriguing, entertaining...all good things. The only weak part is the ending, which leaves too many unanswered questions. However, I've read the reasoning for that on her web page, so no blame to her.
Next up is The Dream Spheres. |
Edited by - mnb128 on 03 Jul 2009 14:59:48 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2009 : 22:17:13
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| Getting back into reading Realms novels for the first time in years. So, taking advantage of Indigo's 3 for 4 sale I've picked up the entirety of the Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy, the entirety of the Spellfire trilogy, and both of Steven's works on Blackstaff. I'm starting off with Blackstaff because I'm desperate to find out where Laeral and Khelben have gone by the beginning of play in 4e, but it will be a fantastic weekend anyway. |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2009 : 14:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dart Ambermoon
My copies of the Arcane Age Trilogy arrived today (waited forever to get a deal on those that I felt was sensible and acceptable), which mens my Realms novel collection (so far...) is finally COMPLETE! Jeez, praise be to paypal and the internet!
*dances the victory jig, praising Finder and demanding he give Tymora more footrubs to keep the Karma going*
Sorry...had to get that out of my system...
so how many novels do you own.would like to know how far ive got left.im on about 145. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2009 : 17:52:58
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| Ahem...around shy of 230 (counting those for the computer games & Double Diamond) if my quick look didnīt produce massive mistakes (my brain is kind of fuzzy today...īt was a long night *g* and iīm in the process of revising my shelving order, so itīs a bit chaotic around here.) |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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J D Dunsany
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
180 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2009 : 06:54:48
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About half way through 'Stardeep' - it's excellent so far. Really really enjoying it.
I've been away from FR novels for a while (reading Warhammer stuff mainly), but Bruce Cordell's work on this is probably going to be enough to reignite my interest. Here's hoping...
JDD |
"How content that young woman looks, don't you think? How content, and yet how flammable." - Lemony Snicket, The Unauthorized Autobiography |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2009 : 10:14:25
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| just wondering if youve read lady of poison.that was bruce cordell as well.i found it really disappointing.hopefully that was a one off. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2009 : 12:54:09
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Ah,Lady of Poison. The Realms-novel where I kept expecting one of the characters to go "Dude!! That was like totally rad the way you butt-kicked that monster!!! That's like totally frickin' awesome bro!!!"
And that's all I'll say about that novel, since my last critique of it ended with a lot of people being unfairly mean to Wooly |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Kajehase on 08 Jul 2009 12:55:52 |
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J D Dunsany
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
180 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2009 : 15:35:31
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Hmmm... I actually quite liked 'Lady of Poison'. The word 'mucklestones' just kind of won me over for a start, and the main characters - including the reclusive wizard woman, whose name escapes me although I think it began with a 'U' - all seemed reasonably well drawn and, within the limitations of a fantasy milieu in which people regularly toss magical energy at each other, fairly believable.
And the plot was good, iirc. 'Stardeep' strikes me as a much more involving novel, though. There's some genuine intrigue and, although the plot seems, at the moment, to depend on some fairly large coincidences (which the author tries to obscure through having one of his major villains be a diviner; clever, that), it's actually very engaging stuff. I'm approximately 200 pages in and am well and truly hooked, but then there's some interesting playing around with notions of good and evil and the different shades of grey which most of us normal folk inhabit on a day to day basis. And I'm always a sucker for precisely that kind of philosophical exploration. I shall report back once I've finished to tell you if it actually leads anywhere...
JDD |
"How content that young woman looks, don't you think? How content, and yet how flammable." - Lemony Snicket, The Unauthorized Autobiography |
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Lewton
Acolyte
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2009 : 01:09:31
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| Finished City of the Dead. Great book. Rosemary Jones is 2 for 2 IMO. Can't wait for her next offering. |
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mnb128
Learned Scribe
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2009 : 02:10:02
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Finished The Dream Spheres last note, and it was another great Cunningham novel. The ending was a bit abrupt, but all in all, I was thoroughly entertained.
Baldur's Gate is next. |
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Rosemary Jones
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2009 : 07:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Just finished City of the Dead, and was mightily pleased by it. Rosemary Jones is now up on my list of writers I'd tell someone thinking of dipping their toes into the Realms to start with.
Thank you so much! I had a mighty good time writing this one -- although I spooked myself out with one scene.
Rosemary |
Rosemary Jones
www.rosemaryjones.com |
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Rosemary Jones
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2009 : 07:23:28
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Since the anthology is up on Amazon.com, it is safe to reveal that there will another City of the Dead story in the Realms of the Dead come January 2010.
After all, if Wizards asks me to write something for an anthology with Dead in the title, you know I'm heading back to the graveyard.
Erik and I had just a great time doing a double reading/signing at a Seattle bookstore. He did his wonderful prologue to DOWNSHADOW, all crunching of bones and bloody fighting. I did the "laundry" scene where Sophraea first meets Gustin.
Our whole point was you can have all types of stories set in the same fantastical city.
BTW, Steve's Waterdeep/Blackstaff novels were a terrific resource for me, although very little lore actually lands on the pages when I write. It tends to be all deep background but it buzzes around in my brain. It's one of the reasons that the Blackstaff never appears in City of the Dead -- too busy with the events happening in Steve's contribution! |
Rosemary Jones
www.rosemaryjones.com |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2009 : 19:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by mnb128
Finished The Dream Spheres last note, and it was another great Cunningham novel. The ending was a bit abrupt, but all in all, I was thoroughly entertained.
Baldur's Gate is next.
i have never finished that novel.i dont knowif its coz its based on a video game but it didnt grab me. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2009 : 13:56:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosemary Jones
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Just finished City of the Dead, and was mightily pleased by it. Rosemary Jones is now up on my list of writers I'd tell someone thinking of dipping their toes into the Realms to start with.
Thank you so much! I had a mighty good time writing this one -- although I spooked myself out with one scene.
Rosemary
Mind if I ask which one? It had a few I could see doing that ...and probably one or two I missed because I was chuckling over something that had happened a page or two before. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2009 : 12:13:11
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty
quote:
Originally posted by mnb128
Finished The Dream Spheres last note, and it was another great Cunningham novel. The ending was a bit abrupt, but all in all, I was thoroughly entertained.
Baldur's Gate is next.
i have never finished that novel.i dont knowif its coz its based on a video game but it didnt grab me.
What video game was that? I cant remember having heard that before. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2009 : 13:29:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
quote:
Originally posted by mnb128
Finished The Dream Spheres last note, and it was another great Cunningham novel. The ending was a bit abrupt, but all in all, I was thoroughly entertained.
Baldur's Gate is next.
i have never finished that novel.i dont knowif its coz its based on a video game but it didnt grab me.
What video game was that? I cant remember having heard that before.
I think he's referring to the last line of the original post. Baldur's Gate was a game. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2009 : 14:32:40
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Ah, sorry, it seems like I had an attack of temporary blindness
And it only affected me noticing the final line of the post. Imagine that. |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2009 : 19:58:01
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| yay.just picked up nether scroll for Ģ1.50 on amazon.been after it for months. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2009 : 15:26:13
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Finished "Unholy". The weakest book in the trilogy but still a very good read and as a whole an excellent trilogy!
Next is "Escape from Undermountain". |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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mnb128
Learned Scribe
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2009 : 03:27:29
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Well, I finished Baldur's Gate, and it was about what I expected. Not much character development and not much of a plot. However, that's pretty much what I expected given that it was only 250 pages and was based on a video game. I'm not sorry I read it. One interesting point is that the protagonist, Abdel, is supposed to be the son of Bhaal, conceived during the time of troubles. Well, Wizards dates this book as 1368, which would make abdel 10 years old. I guess he's just big for his age.
Next in line is Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn. |
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Rosemary Jones
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2009 : 12:53:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Just finished City of the Dead, and was mightily pleased by it. Rosemary Jones is now up on my list of writers I'd tell someone thinking of dipping their toes into the Realms to start with.
Thank you so much! I had a mighty good time writing this one -- although I spooked myself out with one scene.
Rosemary
[/quote]
Mind if I ask which one? It had a few I could see doing that ...and probably one or two I missed because I was chuckling over something that had happened a page or two before.
[/quote]
It's the dead at the ballroom window. I had a horrible case of the stomach flu, was living on the saltines and ginger ale diet, and writing at 3 am in the morning because I just couldn't sleep.
Wacky weird nightmares ensued.
Glad to hear you enjoyed the book.
Rosemary |
Rosemary Jones
www.rosemaryjones.com |
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mnb128
Learned Scribe
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 19:55:26
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Finished Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn. My thoughts are pretty much the same as for the first BG novel. One problem I had with was a part in which Athans is writing about the menu of a tavern of a drow city in the underdark. He mentions that there were strange dishes such as live spiders on the menu. Well, it's always been my understanding that killing a spider could get you killed by a Lolth follower. I just felt it was strange.
Anyway, on to Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal. |
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Teneck
Learned Scribe
USA
133 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2009 : 20:07:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Rosemary Jones
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Just finished City of the Dead, and was mightily pleased by it. Rosemary Jones is now up on my list of writers I'd tell someone thinking of dipping their toes into the Realms to start with.
Thank you so much! I had a mighty good time writing this one -- although I spooked myself out with one scene.
Rosemary
Mind if I ask which one? It had a few I could see doing that ...and probably one or two I missed because I was chuckling over something that had happened a page or two before.
[/quote]
It's the dead at the ballroom window. I had a horrible case of the stomach flu, was living on the saltines and ginger ale diet, and writing at 3 am in the morning because I just couldn't sleep.
Wacky weird nightmares ensued.
Glad to hear you enjoyed the book.
Rosemary
[/quote]
To be fair...all sickness and lack of sleep aside...that was kind of a spooky scene. What got me giggling though was the party goers all chatting "Hey there's Uncle so-and-so...he looks pissed because I sold his stuff"
Spooky and funny in the same page = good darn reading |
"Go ahead...Sleep in the church...the vampires can't get ya in the church" Any DM...any time.
"He's like a trained ape...without the training"
Simon after Jane trashed the Med lab |
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Rosemary Jones
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2009 : 05:10:06
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quote:
To be fair...all sickness and lack of sleep aside...that was kind of a spooky scene. What got me giggling though was the party goers all chatting "Hey there's Uncle so-and-so...he looks pissed because I sold his stuff"
Spooky and funny in the same page = good darn reading
Hey, if your dead uncle was tapping at the window and looking a little upset because that painting of Aunt Ethel was gone, you might have a slightly different reaction. You did notice many pledges to do right by the dead were made by the end of that scene!
Also, I do rewrite often. So where a scene starts on my computer, and there was a lot less chit-chat in version 1, and where it ends often varies. I can't stop funny dialogue from happening. It just appears on my computer screen - I blame the gremlins.
Seriuosly, when I originally submitted the idea for City of the Dead, I got a very sweet note from my editor that concluded with "this isn't going to be another funny novel?" I wrote back that this would be a spooky adventure in a graveyard. And, indeed, it is that. How was I to know that it also would be invaded by kittens, laundry, Leaplow Carver (who I find very funny), and other weirdness. Again, I blame the gremlins. To give my long-suffering editor her due, her note after reading the result was "don't make any major changes, love it as is."
Regards,
Rosemary |
Rosemary Jones
www.rosemaryjones.com |
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mnb128
Learned Scribe
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2009 : 20:18:51
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| Finished Throne of Bhaal. It was much better than the first two books in the series. It just had a much better flow. Next on the list is Prince of Lies. Given the comments I've read, I'm excited to dig into it. |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2009 : 05:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by mnb128
Finished Throne of Bhaal. It was much better than the first two books in the series. It just had a much better flow. Next on the list is Prince of Lies. Given the comments I've read, I'm excited to dig into it.
I loved that one! To me the best one from the Avatars series. |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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How up to date are you with reading FR novels?
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