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Phantom_Lord
Seeker
Pakistan
92 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 15:03:21
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Some of the dieties mentioned in the Faiths & Pantheons products do not have lawful good alignments. I'm talking about the Good only alignments. For example, would Selune have paladins in her church?
In the new campaigns that I shall be running in the dales, a player wants a character who is a paladin of Selune. While the idea certainly does have many a roleplaying potential, I'm confused as to whether this is possible at all?
Sages, authors and DMs! Your help will be greatly appreciated.
Kudos!
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Ponka! Kaddu! |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 16:50:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Phantom_Lord
Some of the dieties mentioned in the Faiths & Pantheons products do not have lawful good alignments. I'm talking about the Good only alignments. For example, would Selune have paladins in her church?Sages, authors and DMs! Your help will be greatly appreciated.
Kudos!
Sure. Paladins of Ilmater, Lathander, Helm, and Sune are all featured in The Rage. If Sune with a CG alignment can have a Paladin, why can't Selune? |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 09 Apr 2004 16:51:21 |
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Magic Matt
Seeker
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 17:32:42
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I would think that the Lawful nature of the paladin would be his/her devout belief in the tenets of their religion, what ever those tenets might be.
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"You had a choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor, and you will have war."
-Winston Churchill- (to Neville Chamberlain)
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
-William Shakespeare, "As You Like It", Act 5 scene 1
He who will not reason is a bigot. He who cannot is a fool. and he who dares not is a slave.
-Sir William Drummond- |
Edited by - Magic Matt on 09 Apr 2004 17:34:09 |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 18:06:45
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for selule, there are moonknights working as the defensive side of their faith.
moonknight is a prestige class which rangers and fighters who worship selune prefer that .
I don't know if there is an organization of selune paladins but you can create one aand it won't be such a bad idea. if sune has selune deserves better.
Like selune's other deities' champs are generally uses prestige classes but they all can have paladins as well |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 20:46:06
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By the core rulebooks, only Lawful Good, Neutral Good and Lawful Neutral deities can have paladins devoted to them. However, "Sune, the goddess of beauty, love and passion, is an exception to the alignment rule, for her followers include paladins even though her alignment is chaotic good." (FRCS, 25)
Officially, followers of Selūne cannot be paladins, nor can those of other Chaotic Good deities (such as Lurue or the elven gods). To be perfectly candid, however, I see no reason why certain CG gods, picked from their individual pantheons, couldn't be the patron for paladins. This would permit (for example) paladins of Selūne, or elven paladins who actually worship elven gods. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 21:23:45
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FRCS p. 26 indicates paladins serving Chauntea (N) (such as Nelyssa Shendean in All Shadows Fled) and Sune (CG). I don't think paladins are part of Selūne's church per Faiths & Avatars, but I wouldn't rule them out. In any such borderline cases I'd go by whether when the player describes the character you believe it.
I don't think there should be elven paladins (at least not within elven culture), as I prefer to stick to the original conception of paladin as a specifically human institution. |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 21:41:41
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| You could always design a PrC similar to a paladin, perhaps requiring at least 1 level of cleric of Selune and 1 of fighter. You could then create special abilities with a moon theme. Of course, that depends on what level the character is. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2004 : 22:43:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer:
FRCS p. 26 indicates paladins serving Chauntea (N) (such as Nelyssa Shendean in All Shadows Fled)
I'll note that Chauntea is Neutral Good, not Neutral, and thus isn't an exception to the one-step rule as it applies to paladins.
As for the issue re: elven paladins, I have a general gripe with the fact that you simply cannot create divine-spellcasting elves with lawful alignments without them having non-elven patrons. This means that entire segments of the elven population, including many sun elves (who have traditionally tended toward lawful rather than chaotic alignments) have no hopes of ever entering divine service. Which (obviously) bugs me. The allowance for elven paladins is just one reaction to this problem. I don't believe that the paladin is somehow "human" in its role or powers; rather, its portrayal in earlier editions as the shining medieval knight has associated the paladin with the human ideal.
But that's another discussion entirely. |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 00:04:12
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Being a paladin s not about race from now
elves even half elves can be paladins
but how often they prefer to be a paladin of a human deity
elven deities have champions but they don't usually have paladins
sometimes cannos are not enough. It is our job to dece waht is good and what makes sense |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 02:17:55
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| Didn't a recent issue of Dragon have alternate paladins, ones that had other alignments? |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 02:28:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Didn't a recent issue of Dragon have alternate paladins, ones that had other alignments?
Or Unearthed Arcana, which provided rules for CG, LE, and CE paladins. |
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Veszaun Auvryath
Acolyte
28 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 02:33:13
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quote:
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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Didn't a recent issue of Dragon have alternate paladins, ones that had other alignments?
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Issue 310 of Dragon Magazine has the neutral and good aligned paladin variants, while 312 has evil aligned variants, though these latter were touted more as Blackguard variants, despite being alternate core classes rather than prestige.
As Arivia mentioned, there are also a few alternates in the Unearthed Arcana book, though I've passed over those for the moment myself.
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"You scoff at the notion of a drow Bladesinger? My, my. How very foolish of you to believe that the Ilythiiri did not possess the secrets of the Bladesong in ages long past. A select few of us have carried a twisted rendition of the 'Song down through the generations. Now, bearing that in mind, will you wipe that ridiculous look of incredulity from your face, or must the keen edge of my blade do it for you?"
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 03:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Veszaun Auvryath
As Arivia mentioned, there are also a few alternates in the Unearthed Arcana book, though I've passed over those for the moment myself.
Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed beat the aforementioned WOTC product with his Champion class which is a paladin like class with less rigid constraints. |
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Phantom_Lord
Seeker
Pakistan
92 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 07:01:26
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| Thank you one and all! |
Ponka! Kaddu! |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 08:08:18
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Why shouldn't paladins be multiracial? I always thought that restriction was a stupid attempt to make humans more special. Why couldn't non-humans be paladins? When I got the 3e PHB, the first thing I looked for in the paladin entry was to see if it was still restricted. I was glad to see that not only was that class not restricted, none of them were.
As for this scroll's question, well -- that's a toughy. There's a reason why Paladins have the one-step rule, and that's because there are only a few deities that have philosophies compatible with paladin life. Yet once you have the Sunite Exception, it opens the door for many others.
In the end, it comes down to you and your player. Your player has to cook up an explaination as to why a Lawful character -- and paladins are extraordinarily Lawful -- would be serving a Chaotic deity. Selune is less of a problem, in my mind, than Sune would be, especially now that Shar is acting even more aggressively. I wouldn't be surprised to find a few paladins in her service.
My suggestion, then, is to have the player detail the character's call to Selune -- did (s)he already worship Selune, or did the moon goddess call him/her from another way of life? I also suggest that this player use a modification of the spell-less paladin varient in The Complete Warrior. Since this character would likely be called to serve primarily as a martial character, spells would be less important than being a true "holy warrior."
But then, it's just my opinion.  |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 20:06:20
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I just wonder what a paladin of sune do?
or
how does she act?
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 20:33:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Roewyn
I just wonder what a paladin of sune do?
or
how does she act?
She would retaliate against anyone who defiles beautiful things or people. She would see the good in people as beautiful and the evil as ugly and so would go about destroying evil creatures ridding our fare land of their ugliness. Or perhaps even trying to convert them to good? Painting a beautiful picture where there was once only ugly evil and darkness...
I'm really glad I found this thread I have actually been contiplating writing a book where the main character is a female Aasimar paladin of Sune and this has given me a few ideas about the side plot of her struggles between the lawful code of her paladin training and the sometimes chaotic wishes of her patron deity.  |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 20:43:43
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They are like models, hah
Really intersting characters fighting with fat and selulite ::)))
Killin orcs and trolls because they are ugly
Aasimar was a plane touched creature isn't? |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 21:02:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Roewyn
Aasimar was a plane touched creature isn't?
Yes they are. My characters mother would be an influential human paladin of Sylverymoon and her father a Ghale (Chaotic, Eladrin, Extraplanar, Good) in service of Hanali Celanil (the elven counterpart goddess of Sune). And that is also why she serves Sune |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 21:04:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Roewyn
I just wonder what a paladin of sune do?
or
how does she act?
I've actually played one for several years. He remains one of my favorite characters. There are a couple of templates a paladin of Sune can take:
1. Diligent protectors of temples, clerics, and artwork. These guys and gals consider their dedication a sacrifice made to their goddess and will hunt down defilers to seek retribution.
2. Knights gallant who spread the dogma of Sune wherever they go:
quote:
Beauty issues from the core of one's being and reveals one's true face to the world, fair or foul. Believe in romance, as true love will win over all. Follow your heart to your true destination. Perform a loving act each day, and seek to awaken love in others. Acquire beautiful items of all sorts, and encourage and protect those who create them. Let your appearance stir and delight those who look upon you. Love those who respond to your appearance, and let warm friendship and admiration flower where love cannot or dare not.
If you have access to the old bard kit book that came out for 2nd edition, check out the knight gallant write up there for more inspiration for this second category of paladins.
With my paladin, he was of the second category. He wasn't that bright, nor that observant (think the Tick). He was a blast to play. Several of the less savory members of his party were able to get up to all sorts of mischief without his ever noticing. He was far more concerned with looking good, pursuing amorous relationships, and keeping vile nasties from disturbing the good citizens of Arabel.
He wound up a great addition to the game: easily manipulated by others, a great comic relief character, and a strong front line fighter.
Sarta |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2004 : 22:09:39
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Models with virtue
Don' t they affraid of wounds?
What does Sune do if their face is severely wounded? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 00:48:25
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Roewyn, you might want to look into reading about Adon, from the Avatar trilogy, for the answer to that, and any other further-related questions about Sune's faithful.
Adon's troubles during the first half of the trilogy went a long way in defining, what I've always seen as the more traditional faith of the common Sunite.
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2004 : 02:09:07
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AD&D got played in a lot of ways because many of its assumptions and rules principles weren't made explicit, or only in Dragon articles. The race/class restrictions were partly based on game balance -- meaning something rather different to the way the term is used in a d20 context, in part because the way an RPG is a game is considered differently -- but it's also the case that in the AD&D milieu, which is to say the World of Greyhawk (as conceived by Gary Gygax and further explained in books like Living Fantasy), rangers, paladins and druids are human institutions culturally foreign to demi-human ways of thinking. The ranger is a product of the fast expansion of human civilization into the wilderness; the paladin is an artefact of Christian-inspired LG faiths such as St. Cuthbert and Heironeous; the druid is strongly modelled on the Celtic druid of Wales and Britanny, transferred in Greyhawk's world to the indigenous Flan culture (as is the bard).
Some of this background carried into the Realms, if you look at the class entries in the Old Grey Box, though it didn't come over anything like literally. And since 3E was written to represent a broader range of fantasy (from some points of view) than the original game, it makes sense that world-specific race/class conventions were dropped. The Realms, while it doesn't rule out elven paladins, also doesn't much match the 'anyone can be anything unless DM says otherwise' doctrine of d20 game design. |
Edited by - Faraer on 11 Apr 2004 02:12:06 |
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Paladins--Question.
