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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 18:47:35
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Certainly there are different style of play and what people are good at playing.
The player that played Duke Kentinal's wife (she also played other characters with others of my characters) had for the most part a very hard time playing an Evil Dutchess, the only times that she played well was when she was mad at somebody IRL. At times the Dutchess left her husband because of her lack of comfort with playing such a vile woman.
However, she rarely played a rescue me character damsel in distress. In general she played self-suffient characters. Oh they got into trouble and needed to be rescued from time to time, but also at times she was the one coming to the rescue as well.
Most did find some kind of romance, however not all of them sought that. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 18:53:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Well, I'd take it it's the gender bias of the authors, predominantly Ed since more than half the named Realm characters are his, rather than an attempt to write for 'gamers'. There are of course worlds with much worse imbalances. I'm not sure that female villains generally are particularly underrepresented, though.
I'd not say that Ed has a gender bias... After all, a large number of the female NPCs in the Realms came from him.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 18:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Probably a correlation to gamer gender.
Exactly what I was thinking...
quote:
Don't forget Agalarond Sirius :)
Someone important resides in that area 
The Simbul, queen of Aglarond
I believe you've fallen victim to SB's sarcasm, and his lack of an emoticon to represent said sarcasm. 
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 18:57:52
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Ah, but look at their attitude, actions, mannerisms and general concepts. Bias need not be presence or absence, but merely the means of their presence or absence. Byt their very nature, any writer is gender biased to some degree, it's unavoidable. And I am not sayign there is anything wrong with any of the way the Realms handles it's distrubution of gender among NPCs. Nor am I sayign this is some plot or even conscious, nor am I tryign to eb a "conspiracy brother" or any such thing.
Just pointing out what might be explanations for this, is all. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 05:27:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
The Simbul, queen of Aglarond
Never heard of her. I take it she's another powerful female figure in the Realms?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Ruper
I believe you've fallen victim to SB's sarcasm, and his lack of an emoticon to represent said sarcasm.
You shut up Mr. Posting so much so he can make it to the Grand Poobah level of Candlekeep or whatever it is called these days. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 10:38:18
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*scratches head* FR is as non-sexist, non-male dominated as it gets for a fantasy setting, IMO.
I do think, however, that waaay too many female NPCs/prominent characters are, you know, xlones of each other. You can't swing a dead hamster without running into at least one drop-dead gorgeous, omg!so capable female character. (It's almost like a drive to be politically correct or something. Sometimes, the role reversal is also just a little too much, i.e., a male wimp paired up with a female "strong" character.) I also agree that there are more male villains than there are female ones. (And if the villain's female, she is almost invariably seductive and sexually aggressive.)
I also note that people note a supposed inequality most often when it deals with females, though. I've rarely, if ever, heard complaints about a story/setting that has too few (prominent or not) male characters. Heh. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 09 Dec 2004 10:40:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 11:15:55
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Ruper
I believe you've fallen victim to SB's sarcasm, and his lack of an emoticon to represent said sarcasm.
You shut up Mr. Posting so much so he can make it to the Grand Poobah level of Candlekeep or whatever it is called these days.
Don't make me sic a swarm of Miniature Giant Space Hamsters on you! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 13:28:33
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
The Simbul, queen of Aglarond
Never heard of her. I take it she's another powerful female figure in the Realms?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Ruper
I believe you've fallen victim to SB's sarcasm, and his lack of an emoticon to represent said sarcasm.
You shut up Mr. Posting so much so he can make it to the Grand Poobah level of Candlekeep or whatever it is called these days.
She's my girlfriend.... I like goth chicks with crazy hair. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 14:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
The Simbul, queen of Aglarond
Never heard of her. I take it she's another powerful female figure in the Realms?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Ruper
I believe you've fallen victim to SB's sarcasm, and his lack of an emoticon to represent said sarcasm.
You shut up Mr. Posting so much so he can make it to the Grand Poobah level of Candlekeep or whatever it is called these days.
She's my girlfriend.... I like goth chicks with crazy hair.
Does she know about this?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 14:55:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
*scratches head* FR is as non-sexist, non-male dominated as it gets for a fantasy setting, IMO.
Pretty much, yeah.
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I do think, however, that waaay too many female NPCs/prominent characters are, you know, xlones of each other. You can't swing a dead hamster without running into at least one drop-dead gorgeous, omg!so capable female character. (It's almost like a drive to be politically correct or something. Sometimes, the role reversal is also just a little too much, i.e., a male wimp paired up with a female "strong" character.) I also agree that there are more male villains than there are female ones. (And if the villain's female, she is almost invariably seductive and sexually aggressive.)
I noticed the too good to be true emale rolemodels as well, and commented on it earlier.
But as for drop dead gorgeous... why not? This is a fantasy setting, so why not let all the women be solid 10 supermodels and all the guys be big and muscular(or whatever else women find attractive)? I mean, we might as well. Hell, we're already used to seeing it on TV and in the movies, so why not in our books and games as well?
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I also note that people note a supposed inequality most often when it deals with females, though. I've rarely, if ever, heard complaints about a story/setting that has too few (prominent or not) male characters. Heh.
I've been complaining about Marion Zimmer Bradley for years, Darkover had such nice potential as a setting until it became a platform for feminist propoganda. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 15:09:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
*scratches head* FR is as non-sexist, non-male dominated as it gets for a fantasy setting, IMO.
Here's a question for fans of other settings that WOTC handles or TSR did.
How does Dragonlance and/or Eberron compare to the Realms for the above subject? |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 15:30:35
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Hmm, I haven't read any of the newer DL books, but from the old series and historical ones I have read, it is similiar to the realms in this regard. Their "archmage under every bush" is "end of the world every tuesday at 3", though, so most of the time the setting is more like a post apocalyptic one than epic fantasy.
We do see some strong villains that are female. However the trend of superhot female characters continues.
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Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Sylvanas_Windrunner
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2004 : 21:35:23
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Here's a question for fans of other settings that WOTC handles or TSR did.
How does Dragonlance and/or Eberron compare to the Realms for the above subject?
Very well. One of the 3 primary gods (good, neutral, evil), Takhisis, sphere of influence is evil. She has her primary Dragon avatar, Dark Warrior, and a Dark Temptress form that she uses to seduce and manipulate leaders. I think it is appropiate that a Female is used to represent the embodiment of evil.
Kitiara, The Majere's half-sister, was perhaps the most well-known warlord to fight the forces of good. She was considered strong enough to equal a man in a fight, yet have the charms to have her way with men of her liking.
In the newest of Dragonlance, there is Mina in Amber and Ashes.
The Dark Queen
Takhisis Tormenting Raistlin in the Abyss.
Kitiara(on right)
Kit Fighting Dalamar after surviving the Grove.
On on topic, I believe Females do get equal opportunity in FR, they just need more evil women, or the Drow just seem to have all of them.
THere is nothing for terrifying than a woman's wrath... |
Edited by - Alaundo on 10 Dec 2004 10:46:10 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 03:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
I noticed the too good to be true emale rolemodels as well, and commented on it earlier.
True.
quote:
But as for drop dead gorgeous... why not? This is a fantasy setting, so why not let all the women be solid 10 supermodels and all the guys be big and muscular(or whatever else women find attractive)? I mean, we might as well. Hell, we're already used to seeing it on TV and in the movies, so why not in our books and games as well?
Uh, I think it's gotten so repetitive and boring? I mean, if every other person is dazzlingly handsome or beautiful, where have all the ordinary-looking people gone? (More the beautiful women bit. Judging from the descriptions of NPCs, it's okay for a prominent male to merely look ordinary, but a female? Has to be so gorgeous she oozes purple prose from every pore.)
quote:
I've been complaining about Marion Zimmer Bradley for years, Darkover had such nice potential as a setting until it became a platform for feminist propoganda.
I liked Mists of Avalon, but all the other Avalon books just regurgitate each other, and Firebrand was just atrocious. In more respects than just the shrieking feminist overtones. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 04:23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Uh, I think it's gotten so repetitive and boring? I mean, if every other person is dazzlingly handsome or beautiful, where have all the ordinary-looking people gone?
Cannon fodder?
quote:
(More the beautiful women bit. Judging from the descriptions of NPCs, it's okay for a prominent male to merely look ordinary, but a female? Has to be so gorgeous she oozes purple prose from every pore.)
True. I don't see a character like Brienne of Tarth from Martin's popular series ever appearing in a Realms novel |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 06:42:00
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Cannon fodder?
Hee.
quote:
True. I don't see a character like Brienne of Tarth from Martin's popular series ever appearing in a Realms novel
I don't even need a prominent character (with emphasis on prominent -- don't start pointing out all the average-looking/non-pretty tertiary characters that only last one chapter, thanks) that's as un-womanly as Brienne. (Though I like Brienne a great deal.) I just want people who look normal, not ravishing, divine beauties who cause traffic accidents because riders and drovers were staring at them in lust and awe.
I won't even get started on women with ridiculously long hair and, apparently, have no problems keeping those "masses of silken tresses" glossy and pretty even in the wilderness. (And the hair never, ever obstructs them in combat, or gets yanked on by an enemy, either.) |
Edited by - Winterfox on 10 Dec 2004 06:48:32 |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 11:15:49
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Well, I have tried to do my bit. Some of my female NPCs take more of their inspiration from Belle Starr and Calamity Jane than the pictures we often see in fantasy artwork. And many more of my female NPCs run teh full gamut of plain to beautiful, with a relatively fair representation of the various groupings.
But the game and it's associated worlds have always held Characters as seemingly above the masses of ordinary citizens, be it novel heroes and heroines or the PCs and Npcs in the game campaign. They are tougher, faster, stronger, and smarter than the average commoner, it passes on to common sense they would be more attractive as well.
But then again, I have always despised the idea of the commoner as presented in 2e, and have been working away from that concept for a while, even before 3e.
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Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 13:44:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Well, I have tried to do my bit. Some of my female NPCs take more of their inspiration from Belle Starr and Calamity Jane than the pictures we often see in fantasy artwork. And many more of my female NPCs run teh full gamut of plain to beautiful, with a relatively fair representation of the various groupings.
Yay! And I do mean it.
quote:
But the game and it's associated worlds have always held Characters as seemingly above the masses of ordinary citizens, be it novel heroes and heroines or the PCs and Npcs in the game campaign. They are tougher, faster, stronger, and smarter than the average commoner, it passes on to common sense they would be more attractive as well.
Fair enough, although I don't think it has much to do with "common sense." But I, for one, don't want to read about people who are not only smarter, stronger, faster and tougher but also more attractive -- to top it all off! -- than your average human being. There should be a limit to the superlatives a character can have, IMO. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 13:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Fair enough, although I don't think it has much to do with "common sense." But I, for one, don't want to read about people who are not only smarter, stronger, faster and tougher but also more attractive -- to top it all off! -- than your average human being. There should be a limit to the superlatives a character can have, IMO.
So, only 4 then? |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 14:30:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
So, only 4 then?
Well -- think of multi-classing. Assuming that such madness is possible in game terms, how would you like to play a character who's a level 1 druid/level 1 bard/level 1 cleric/level 1 rogue/level 1 wizard/level 1 fighter/level 1 monk? |
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Sylvanas_Windrunner
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 16:18:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
But I, for one, don't want to read about people who are not only smarter, stronger, faster and tougher but also more attractive -- to top it all off! -- than your average human being. There should be a limit to the superlatives a character can have, IMO.
Who says they have to be human? |
I went on a job interview the other day and they were like 'Ohhh, what's that smell?', and I'm like, 'Oh, sorry, it's me.' And then they figured I wouldn't be able to fit in with the other employees because they're living and I'm, y'know, dead, so I wouldn't be a team player. But then I said that I could work 24 hours and they were like 'Alright, you can work the graveyard shift!'" |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 16:31:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Sylvanas_Windrunner
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
But I, for one, don't want to read about people who are not only smarter, stronger, faster and tougher but also more attractive -- to top it all off! -- than your average human being. There should be a limit to the superlatives a character can have, IMO.
Who says they have to be human?
Well for one thing, there are no average elves. Don't you know that all elves are superior? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 23:11:31
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvanas_Windrunner
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
But I, for one, don't want to read about people who are not only smarter, stronger, faster and tougher but also more attractive -- to top it all off! -- than your average human being. There should be a limit to the superlatives a character can have, IMO.
Who says they have to be human?
Well for one thing, there are no average elves. Don't you know that all elves are superior?
... to what?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 23:36:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvanas_Windrunner
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
But I, for one, don't want to read about people who are not only smarter, stronger, faster and tougher but also more attractive -- to top it all off! -- than your average human being. There should be a limit to the superlatives a character can have, IMO.
Who says they have to be human?
Well for one thing, there are no average elves. Don't you know that all elves are superior?
... to what?
All non elves, and all elves of other subtypes than the elf in question. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 03:28:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
All non elves, and all elves of other subtypes than the elf in question.
Hear hear, well put.  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 17:41:33
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Here's another female lich btw. :)
The Silver Pearl (Jymahna), 19th Enchanter, Female Lich, NE, One of the nine Runemasters who rule the Twisted Rune, Empires of the Shining Sea box set.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 18:42:54
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Here's another female lich btw. :)
The Silver Pearl (Jymahna), 19th Enchanter, Female Lich, NE, One of the nine Runemasters who rule the Twisted Rune, Empires of the Shining Sea box set.
Hey now, what are you doing, steering this scroll back on-topic? Don't you know better than to do that? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 19:18:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Here's another female lich btw. :)
The Silver Pearl (Jymahna), 19th Enchanter, Female Lich, NE, One of the nine Runemasters who rule the Twisted Rune, Empires of the Shining Sea box set.
Hey now, what are you doing, steering this scroll back on-topic? Don't you know better than to do that?
Well met
Aye, and about time  I feared we would be heading into another elven debate...of which I simply could not bear |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 20:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Here's another female lich btw. :)
The Silver Pearl (Jymahna), 19th Enchanter, Female Lich, NE, One of the nine Runemasters who rule the Twisted Rune, Empires of the Shining Sea box set.
Hey now, what are you doing, steering this scroll back on-topic? Don't you know better than to do that?
Well met
Aye, and about time I feared we would be heading into another elven debate...of which I simply could not bear
That's right! We don't need to hear more from those uppity elves!
Now, before that feared staff comes into play... Any other female liches out there that we know of? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 02:40:16
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Here's a uppity elven one. :)
Lady Synnorha Durothil, LG, Female Gold Elf Baelnorn, 20th wizard, Cormanthyr:Empire of the Elves. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Fem Liches?
