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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 16:15:24
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I posed this question on ENworld and got some good responses but I'd like to see what some FR veterans here have to say on the subject. Recently I've noticed a scary trend with my players in that they don't have a clue as to what they're doing with the powerful characters they have.
My players are all level 13 we have:
1. paladin/fist of raziel
2. ranger
3. rogue/sorc/arcane trickster
4. fighter/sorc/spellsword
They spent 5 hours running around in circles trying to locate people and made no progress until finally I had to *strongly* hint that perhaps a scry or divination might help. All of my verbal clues in game stated that in no way, by the use of tracking, locate creature (which was a pretty good idea, I thought they were going to take it further at that time) or talking to locals were they going to figure out where the villian they were chasing went to.
Example:
Players follow leads to a town, said town has one of the villian's cohorts they know of but do not know what he is capable of. Players actually do find this person briefly in an inn sitting in a booth and doing what appears to be watching the door. While the players file in, said villians cohort gets up and starts going up the stairs to his room. Players follow him up the stairs and knock on the door (trying the peaceful approach since this was a public place) and after no answer attempt to beat it down. Its barred from the other side. Trickster goes outside and flies up to window level, the room is empty, at this same time the rest of the party finally beats the door in discovering the same thing. Investigating the room they find that there is no trace of this person anywhere. Trying to use locate creature produces no results (or actually it does, since he's not in range they conclude that he must have teleported away), discouraged they meander around town the rest of the night(real time) going from tavern to inn questioning people who have absolutely no clue as to what they are about. After awhile of "Nope, no sir don't have any idea" or "Never seen him before" I would think that they would have tried another avenue. They did not *sigh*. Until finally I said that perhaps some other means of discovery other than the mundane might yeild some answers, and this was from a high ranking NPC! I tried to keep it in game! Still nothing. Finally the paladin (the person, not the charater) gets fed up and buys some scrying device and some scrolls and gives them to the sorcerers to use.
This is the kicker the first scrying attempt (on the villians cohort) succeeds and through my description the scryer sketches the harbor (cohort obviously teleported away) for later reference. I thought this was an awesome idea! They alternate between being boneheads and geniuses apparently. The second attempt failed but they were able to glean enough info to put them back on the right track. Finally.
So, my question is how do I get these guys to start thinking big? This example is not the last time this is going to happen. The villians are not 1st level orc warriors anymore and are not going to sit in one place and wait for the PC's to come kill them. I get bored silly spoon feeding them the adventure as well, I need these guys to start thinking for themselves!
The campaign itself is going good. They're treated like the heroes they are where ever they go.
Pretend I'm one of my clueless players and give me some advice on how to handle a high level character.
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 16:36:29
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If this is the first time they are playing high-level PCs, just give them some time (and a few strong hints!). They just need to get the hang of using the wifer variety of abilities they now possess.
On the other hand, if they have done this before and had no problems then, they may be suffering from a bout of idiocy. It happens to the best of us, where they just plain forget what to do, or the idea just doesn't occur to them. Usually this will go away, but sometimes it may need to be shocked out of them. Remember: Pain and embarrasment are the two best teachers. Make 'em feel dumb, or take damage, and they'll remember real quick!  |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 17:06:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
So, my question is how do I get these guys to start thinking big? This example is not the last time this is going to happen. The villians are not 1st level orc warriors anymore and are not going to sit in one place and wait for the PC's to come kill them. I get bored silly spoon feeding them the adventure as well, I need these guys to start thinking for themselves!
...
Pretend I'm one of my clueless players and give me some advice on how to handle a high level character.
Advice:
Before you sit down to game, check your equipment lists, see if there is something that you do not have but often is useful (This will affress the divination issue, as it appears the party has limited detection devices). Know your character well, what magical abilities and mundane abilities vailable. Remember magic is often quicker then the mundane, always consider this as a option when confronting a problem. However also remember that sometimes magic can be used too quickly. In general though you are better off casting all memorised spells early then coming to the end of the game day with many spells uncast.
When gaming discuss with party members the anticipated problems of the day, before spells are learned (The cited example was to locate a person and aparently only detection was short range effect) so that the day might go as easy as posible. Picture what you would do when confronted with a problem in RL, you use the tools that you have available to slove problem or achieve task, your character will also want to do the same with the tools available. Make sure your character and party have a wide range of tools available for use. Of course the tools should be weighted to the expected tak anticipated, however do not plan for things to go as planed. Have backup tools to be ready to address the unexpected. For example if you are going to fight a battle, you certainly would concentrate on tools for the battle, however you should also ready tools for the exempted, perhaps telport if battle goes worst then expected, prehaps true seeing just in case the peasant woman is actually a spy, it depends on your character as to reserve tools can be made ready. Of all the most important thing is treat your character like a person. Do not just look at the character sheet, look at the personality from outside how would you expect your charater to act if you were just a bystander. eg. If always rushes into battle the charater should always rush into battle unless reasonable talked out of doing so.
Remember now that you are jigher level you have far more tools, do not forget the simple ones that sometimes can do the trick. Also remember the DM will have oposing you foes of simalar levels that will use their more powerful and simple tools as well. Also that the DM often has a lot of time to plan for contingencys depending on what the party decides to do.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2004 : 20:32:21
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Kentinal I'm going to make a checklist of that and run them thru it before each session. Those are very helpful ideas! One of the things I've noticed with the speed of leveling in 3.x is that newer players to the game have very little time to get to know their characters abilities before they're bounced up a level again. Going over a list would certainly bring some of those useful but seldom used abilities to the front of their minds.
I've taken to slowing the experience gain down to control the growth and I'm also keeping the numbers to myself. This why they arent worried about what the need to kill to get to the next level. :) |
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Alparon
Seeker
Turkey
67 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 16:45:50
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what's a spellsword;
is it a prestige class like an archmage or so? |
I am Cyric, the One and the All, God of Murder and Intrigue, Patron of Deception and Chaos, Prince of Lies, the Dark Sun, rightful Lord of the Dead, Cyric-on-a-stick, and known to some as "the Mad God." I welcome you to The Land of the Dead... |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 17:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alparon
what's a spellsword;
is it a prestige class like an archmage or so?
Yes a prestige class.
It is found in Complete Warrior
It allows spells to be stored in a sword. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alparon
Seeker
Turkey
67 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 20:31:36
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a sword instead of a spellbook?
niiiice!
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I am Cyric, the One and the All, God of Murder and Intrigue, Patron of Deception and Chaos, Prince of Lies, the Dark Sun, rightful Lord of the Dead, Cyric-on-a-stick, and known to some as "the Mad God." I welcome you to The Land of the Dead... |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 21:19:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Alparon
a sword instead of a spellbook?
Think more along lines of ring of spell storing, though some spell casters do not have or need spell books ;-) |
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High level play - advice for players?
