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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Jan 2005 : 23:24:41
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What I really want to discuss or share opinions about are the Uthgardt. I feel they were somewhat subsumed into the Illuskan culture in Races of Faerun, and didn't really get the attention or uniqueness they deserved. In fact, earlier first and second edition products did a better job of covering them and their doings than what was supposed to the the authorative guide to the races and cultures of Faerun. And don't get me started on the Reghedmen... The Silver Marches remedied this somewhat, but covered only a few of the tribes. Specifically what I'd like to talk about are the possibilities for the various tribes in the future (conquest, battle, chieftainship, destruction), especially the relationship between the eastern tribes and the newly risen Silver Marches. I feel a certain amount of anxiety about a new wave of civilisation pushing the Uthgardt further into the wilderness, to destruction at the hands of orcs or even a degenerate orc-like existence for themselves. I can imagine even good aligned Uthgardt characters (like my own) eventually taking up arms against the good people of the Marches to prevent this happening (the philosophy of Uthgardt himself would, of course, encourage this).
What about fallen tribes/totems being resurected or re-established by outcasts from other tribes. Can new beast totems arise or be revealed (for instance, it is unclear whether the Blue Bear was an original totem beast, as the Tree Ghost only began to worship it after they had been driven from Grandfather Tree by the tree itself. While I'm on this particular topic, I'd like to vote for Eric Boyd's 'Mintiper's Chapbook' as by far the best series of articles ever posted on the Wotc website. They are truly amazing). It seems that an Uthgradt hero with enough charisma could forge a new Red Pony or Golden Eagle tribe from disenchanted members of the Elk or Griffon tribe, or even the fragments of the Blue Bear.
Finally, what are the lands claimed by the tribes? These have never been satisfactorily been detailed in my opinion, though I'm well aware that the nomadic nature of most Uthgardt prohibits fixed territories or borders for each tribe. How would the Uthgardt treat the settlements and roads passing through their territory? Would they levy taxes on caravans or simply raid them? I suspect this would vary wildly from tribe to tribe, according to the whim of their chief or king, shamans and their totem, and their general attitude to 'weakling southerners'. On that note, would they be anymore forgiving/friendly to other Illuskans, Reghedmen in particular (think of Wulfgar's encounter with the Sky Pony in 'Streams of Silver') than, say, a Waterdhavian?
Please, let you opinions and discussion commence. Oh, and if this merits any responses from on high I'd be very flattered and pleased. And I have a LOT more to say about the Uthgardt. For instance, their language... There's no way they simply speak a local dialect of Illuskan, their culture is totally different... Mutter, mutter... pass me another horn of mead...
I originally posted this on the wotc boards, but they're not giving the level of feedback and discussion I'd hoped for...
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Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 00:09:09
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The Uthgardt are an interesting type of "barbarian" given that they have Netherese blood in their veins. I'm not sure I'm with you as to why you feel that the Illuskan bloodline shouldn't dominate the Uthgardt - especially considering that Uthgar was and always will be a Ruathym Northman who lost his ships and was forced inland to "die". The Uthgardt are not a different human race - which is why they didn't get differentiated in "Races of Faerun" from the 'rest' of the barbarians.
The second thing we should keep in mind about the Uthgardt is that there aren't alot of them. How can they dominate their territory (such as it is) when their manpower is constantly drained by endless warring with most anyone? Civilization has no doubt impacted upon their lifestyle and customs but it hasn't caused their decline IMHO - the Uthgardt are as they always have been: a loose bunch of tribal groupings that wander nomadically throughout the North. People know to steer clear of their ancestor mounds (because they defend them with such all-consuming ferocity) but otherwise ignore them, I would think. What has happened however is that while the Uthgradt have remained in a state of status-quo, civilization has flourished due to the fact that the last significant orc horde that actually fought humans was way back in 1235 DR, some 150 years ago. The rise to greater power of Obould Many Arrows may see civilization dealt the check it needs to give the Uthgardt some more breathing space.
As an aside, in some ways, the Uthgardt also remind me of what I've read about the North American Indians. A low technology warrior culture with tribal groupings and lands. Some tribes were more receptive to outsiders than others. All suffered from the impact of civilization - but that's the real world. Maybe the Realms can and should be different.
I don't think there is any difficulty in creating new Uthgardt tribes. All you have to do is demonstrate the blessing of Uthgar in such a move (a manifestation as the new tribal totem: the Grey Hawk Uthgardt tribe - pun very much intended! ) and rally followers to you. In fact, the creation of new or resurrection of old Uthgardt tribes (although the survivors of the Red Pony and Golden Eagle tribes still exist - as grimlocks in the Underdark) would be a good and interesting development in the North.
If you don't think the Uthgardt should speak a Netherese-influenced dialect of Illuskan, just what should they speak? There is no evidence to support a totally different language base for them to have a unique tongue of their own. The Uthgardt are a melting pot of refugee humans that the trials and tribulations of history in the North have thrown up and out. In their beginnings, they were a rag tag group of Illuskan warriors that encountered other wandering humans (refugees from the fall of Netheril) and merged with them. For them to have a totally unique language or culture doen't gel with the sources.
I like this discussion. Have at it!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 05 Jan 2005 00:10:24 |
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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 01:27:29
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My main reasoning for the Uthgardt having a culture (and language, etc) distinct from that of 'mainstream' Iluskan culture (whatever THAT is, considering the cultural differences that must exist between the Iluskans of the Silver Marches and the Isles, for instance) is their isolation. They DON'T mix with other cultures, war with most of them, and this is reciprocated, even by other Iluskan cultures
'When patrolling enemies make coastal raids difficult, the warriors of Luskan turn inland, attacking the miners of Mirabar and any Uthgardt barbarians they can find' (Volo's Guide to the North, 112).
I imagine their language to be strongly influenced by Netherese, and in his speculative 'Linguistic Atlas of the Realms' in the 1999 Dragon Annual, Thomas Costa refers to the language spoken by the Uthgardt as Bothii, also spoken by the humans of Hartsvale (not unreasonable to assume similar Netherese influences on the two groups). And no, you are right that the Uthgardt are not a seperate human 'race'. Humans are a 'race'. They are however, CLEARLY a separate culture. Their lives revolve around the worship of a deity who NO ONE else worships, they are nomadic, their tribal 'ritual enemy' demands almost constant war against specific foes, they worship at ancestor mounds, etc, etc. I have to have a look through my sources and get some more evidence for this, this is all fairly off the cuff.
I agree that there aren't many Uthgardt. If the Red Tiger are anything to go by (admittedly, they are one of the smallest of the remaining tribes) there could be as few as 10,000 of them, a fairly pitful number compared to any of the cities of the North.
Thanks for replying, this is topic that really interests me (obviously haha). |
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 05:15:29
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Oh this one is a question for Ed if he or Elminster come nosing around in this dark corner of Candlekeep. What are the inspirations for the Uthgardt? Given their black hair and blue eyes I would suspect R.E Howard's Cimmerians, but is there more? Cimmerian culture, what little of it Howard described, seemed fairly Celtic in flavour, whereas Uthgardt, in their current incarnation at least, seem more like the Scandinavian Illuskans. Did you intend them to be friends or foes of your adventuring bands, or a more unpredictable force, likely to heal as to harm?
Oh yeah, while I'm asking these things, do they have ginger beer in the realms, and where does all the lamp oil come from (in the North at least. I've never heard of oil wells so do they use tallow or flammable sap or something else)? There, I'm done. |
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2005 : 23:42:16
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I've got some bad news for you Ulrik. My understanding is that the Uthgardt were created for FR5 The Savage Frontier by Paul Jaquays. I'm pretty sure Ed has mentioned this elsewhere a while ago ... I am happy to stand corrected however!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 05 Jan 2005 23:43:12 |
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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 00:00:42
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| Really? That's interesting. Thanks for that, George. I has assumed Paul was really just editing Ed's notes on the North, as I understand was often the case in the early Realms products. Perhaps I can hassle Mr Jaquays about them... |
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 00:12:05
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Oh Paul has had a greater impact than any 1E writer on the Realms that I can think of. He gave us the Uthgardt, Radoc, Amelior Amanitas and most importantly of all: the Creator Races. It's amazing that a few throwaway lines have had such a far-reaching effect on the modern Realms.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 00:21:40
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| Do you have his email address? I've found his site, but the 'contact' link isn't working for me. |
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2005 : 16:41:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ulrik Wolfsbane
My main reasoning for the Uthgardt having a culture (and language, etc) distinct from that of 'mainstream' Iluskan culture (whatever THAT is, considering the cultural differences that must exist between the Iluskans of the Silver Marches and the Isles, for instance) is their isolation.
Linguistically speaking, your reasons, combined with the amount of time since the creation fo the first Uthgardt tribes, leaves more than enough time for a distinct Illuskan based dialect to have emerged.
In the space of 500 - 800 years, (a segment of) the peoples of NW Europe went from speaking one common tongue, protoGermanic, to speaking over a handful of divergement dialects. FRom protoGermanic emerged North Germanic, which fathered the tongues og Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Iceland, East Germanic, which fathered the dead Gothic tongues, and West Germanic, which fathered such languages as English, German, Dutch, Austrian, and Old French.
I think that the Uthgardt have had a little longer than the elder Teutonic folk had to develope, not only their own dialect, but also their own cultural nauances and uses of speech, and metaphor.
I could hardly imagine that the Uthgadt wouldn't speak their own dialect of Illuskan.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 09:54:30
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'The wise Lord put these words
into your mind; I have never heard a warrior
speak more sagely while still so young.
You are very strong and very shrewd,
you speak with discerning'.
Cheers Beowulf. I appreciate the level you've chosen to contibute on (so much higher than the bloody Wotc site. Seriously, who bloody cares WHAT stats Twinkle has?). I did Old English as part of my English major at varsity, so the lineage of languages is an interest of mine also. I think the Uthgardt would use their language as a deliberate barrier to keep other ethnic groups at bay and be very gaurded with their teaching of it to others, in a manner akin to Druidic.
The next question this raises is whether the Uthgardt have taken to writing, and what alphabet they use. In my campaign, I had a missionary priest of Oghma, introduce a simple runic alphabet named Ogham (not very original I know, feel free to suggest something better)to the Uthgardt about 1000DR. They use this in a manner akin to the Celts use of the Ogham script (marking boundary stones, headstones, on menhirs, presumably on the stones and barrows of their ancestor mounds). |
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2005 : 18:06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ulrik Wolfsbane
The next question this raises is whether the Uthgardt have taken to writing, and what alphabet they use. In my campaign, I had a missionary priest of Oghma, introduce a simple runic alphabet named Ogham (not very original I know, feel free to suggest something better)to the Uthgardt about 1000DR. They use this in a manner akin to the Celts use of the Ogham script (marking boundary stones, headstones, on menhirs, presumably on the stones and barrows of their ancestor mounds).
I don't know how unoriginal your use of the Ogham script is. It seems to fit with alot of other real world adoptions into FR and DnD in general.
The only reason I can see for the Uthgardt NOT having a script is perhaps, their (seemingly) pathological distaste for civilization.
Other than that, the live in close proximity to folk who do have a script. They have undoubtedly at least seen their writing from stuff they've pilliaged on their raids. That, and its hard to believe so long lived a tribe of folk could be entirely xenophobic.
So, they (ie. Uthgardt nobles, mercs.) have probably been exposed to the idea of writing.
We can also assume that the have some form of native pictographic system. Afterall, even caveman had pictographs. And pictographs are just a step away from a writing system.
In fact, given the Illuskan origins of the leaders of the Uthgardt, perhaps their writing system doubles as a magic/divination/ philosophical system a la the Teutonic rune rows?
Anyway, I agree that these would be sparsely used.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 22:53:40
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So saith Paul Jaquays (author of The Savage Frontier) on the inspirations/origins of the Uthgardt.
Joe:
It has been over 15 years since I wrote the source book, so many details may
escape me (and my copies are in storage somewhere else in the house), so I'm
pulling from memory here. If I remember correctly, Ed's notes specified that
there were barbarians in the region, but that the Uthgardt were my own
creation. I probably made them dark haired so that they wouldn't be
immediately imagined as Nordic Viking types. While I am a fan of Conan, at
that point I wasn't trying to emulate anybody else's barbarians ... only to
make my own. And I wanted to stay away from D&D's "known world" habit of
co-opting familiar cultures with a fantasy spin (I edited several of the D&D
known world source books during that time period). They are intended to be a
unique force of nature, not necessarily friend or foe to adventurers. The
actual tribes came from some work I did for an update to Griffin Mountain in
the early (I source book I co-wrote for Chaosium's Glorantha world). I had
expanded upon the Balazaring tribes in Griffin Mountain and made them more
varied and with special features. Chaosium chose not to use that work and I
re-spun it and made it more compatible with the AD&D game system and Realms
world mythos. Places like Grandfather Tree and the burial mounds were based
on art that I had originally done and were not used in Griffin Island (from
Avalon Hill).
The realmslore of the Savage Frontier came from seven sources: The Forgotten
Realms boxed set; the Waterdeep source book; Ed Greenwood's notes, which TSR
supplied as pages of photo-copied clippings that had come from many of Ed's
notebooks; the unused work for Griffin Island; the as yet unreleased novel
The Crystal Shard by Bob Salvatore (the original appearance of dark elf
ranger Dritzz Do Urden ... for whom I created the first game stats), The
Enchanted Wood (an adventure I had written for SPI's Dragon Quest game, for
which TSR owned the copyright due to their acquisition of SPI in the early
80s), and my own imagination.
Much of the prehistory and lore of the place derived from the Enchanted
Wood. I was very amused (and flattered) when later writers used content
derived from there to flesh out the ancient history of the realms.
Characters like Amelior Amanitas and his side kick Eric were based on people
I knew. Amelior was a player in one of my early FRP games and fist appeared
in The Enchanted Wood as a mission sponsor. The evil Wulgreth and the
demigod Karse came from the same source. If you can find a copy of The
Enchanted Wood, you will have access to much of my original source material.
;)
I had a lot of freedom in what I did. Maybe too much freedom. I left the
geography and most of the cities as Ed had designed them, but I took a free
hand with some of the characters and places and perhaps did things with them
that Ed did not like ... since I learned later that he wrote material that
went and rescued and redeemed some high level adventurers whom I had caused
to come to an unhappy end. If it didn't contradict something in the
published world or in Ed's notes, I felt free to interpret as I chose in
order to make interesting situations.
Some of my work became Realms canon. Others of it tumbled into the dust bin
of history.
Paul
As far as I'm concerned, this adds weight to my argument that it was wrong of ROF to treat the Uthgardt as simply black haired Illuskans. They aren't, and never have been (see the rest of this for the rest of my rant). |
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
Edited by - Ulrik Wolfsbane on 11 Jan 2005 23:38:02 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2005 : 23:40:52
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Danka,
Do you think he'll mind if I quote that in my Ed file...? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2005 : 00:56:56
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Ahh, good work Ulrik! I'm not sure how much of Paul's stuff has tumbled into the history dustbin, however. Sure, some of his creations have been used by other writers and had things "done to them" but the history and characters he created for FR5 remain whole to this day in the sense that they are and always will be a part of the historical North. No-one has ignored the Uthgardt, Radoc, Wulgreth, Karse, Jingleshod, Amelior Amanitas and a host of others. Pauls' work was seminal and iconic - it lives on today in the Realms as it always will. Oh, and I have a confession: it was I who dated the deification of Uthgar. I had to as part of my North Timeline - he was just too big a reference to leave undetailed and undated.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Octa
Learned Scribe
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2005 : 20:50:28
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| So here is a cool plot idea- the shades are seeking out people of Netherese blood, lets suppose the Uthgart are more Netherese than illuskan. What use might the shades have for them?? Capturing young Uthgart and training them as Mages?? Nice plot twist in there with some disappearing Uthgart.... |
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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2005 : 20:30:14
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| Those fond of the Uthgardt should definitely check out my novel Son of Thunder in January of next year. The relationship of the present day Uthgardt to their Runlathan forebearers is a major preoccupation of the novel. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 05:59:07
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I'm very much looking forward to it, Murray. But January is oh so far away ... 
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 07:18:00
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm very much looking forward to it, Murray. But January is oh so far away ...
-- George Krashos
I'm with George.
I've been looking forward to a "good" barbarian novel for a long while now. It should rather fun...  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 11:03:57
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Dammit I just wrote a lengthy reply and then lost it. This will have to be a condensed version. Sigh. Murray that sounds great! I'm assuming ndas cover your work and make it impossible to reveal much/anything, but do you have a title? A working title? Does the novel have an Uthgardt protaganist? Or are they just part of the plot? You're charting fairly unknown waters as far as realms fiction goes, having a novel dealing with barbarians (with the ecception of those arcane age novels and some of ed's earliest fiction, which was pre uthgardt anyway), if I can assume that from your post... I salute you! What sources are you drawing on for the novel, if that isn't giving too much away? Who are your mentors as far as realmslore is concerned? Best of luck with your endevours!
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Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
Edited by - Ulrik Wolfsbane on 16 May 2005 11:05:26 |
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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 03:48:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ulrik Wolfsbane
Dammit I just wrote a lengthy reply and then lost it. This will have to be a condensed version. Sigh. Murray that sounds great! I'm assuming ndas cover your work and make it impossible to reveal much/anything, but do you have a title? A working title? Does the novel have an Uthgardt protaganist? Or are they just part of the plot? You're charting fairly unknown waters as far as realms fiction goes, having a novel dealing with barbarians (with the ecception of those arcane age novels and some of ed's earliest fiction, which was pre uthgardt anyway), if I can assume that from your post... I salute you! What sources are you drawing on for the novel, if that isn't giving too much away? Who are your mentors as far as realmslore is concerned? Best of luck with your endevours!
I'm glad there's interest. The novel is called Son of Thunder and it's mostly about the Thunderbeast tribe, about whom I wrote in the Realms of Shadow anthology. It also features at two of the other tribes in a direct way. The protagonists are Uthgardt, most of them anyway. You can read a sample in Realms of the Dragons II that might give you a few tantalizing hints.
Additionally, I have written a short story called "The Bones of the Beast" that takes place during Uthgar's mortal life as Uther Gardolffson and depicts a key moment in his career, while laying out some foundational material for the novel. I don't know what month it'll be released in yet, but at this stage I believe it's been firmly accepted by Dragon.
My research materials were numerous, but the principle ones on the Uthgardt were The Savage Frontier, The North, Volo's Guide to the North, Mintiper's Chapbook from wizards.com and Silver Marches, and I suppose also Lost Empires of Faerun, of which I was sent a couple of advance chapters while writing my first draft. I exchanged emails on different subjects with Eric L. Boyd, Ed Greenwood and Steven Schend, mostly with Eric on the subject of the Uthgardt. I think you'll find that it uses existing continuity and adds to it. |
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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 04:13:50
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| Thanks heaps Murray! That's exactly what I wanted to know... Now I have to go and dig out my 'Realms of Shadow'... |
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 04:21:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Murray Leeder
Additionally, I have written a short story called "The Bones of the Beast" that takes place during Uthgar's mortal life as Uther Gardolffson and depicts a key moment in his career, while laying out some foundational material for the novel. I don't know what month it'll be released in yet, but at this stage I believe it's been firmly accepted by Dragon.
I'll be looking forward to that then, in addition to Son of Thunder... .
quote:
My research materials were numerous, but the principle ones on the Uthgardt were The Savage Frontier, The North, Volo's Guide to the North, Mintiper's Chapbook from wizards.com and Silver Marches, and I suppose also Lost Empires of Faerun, of which I was sent a couple of advance chapters while writing my first draft. I exchanged emails on different subjects with Eric L. Boyd, Ed Greenwood and Steven Schend, mostly with Eric on the subject of the Uthgardt. I think you'll find that it uses existing continuity and adds to it.
That's some impressive research Murray  . I'm glad you've gone to such a considerable length to ensure that your work meshes well with pre-established material. It's always something I appreciate when I read a Realms novel where the author has taken the time to consider how it relates to the existing Realmslore.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 17 May 2005 04:28:00 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 07:30:30
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Bravo Murray. That was a very informative post and one to make the heart of any FR fan sing. January is definitely too far away now!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Murray Leeder
Forgotten Realms Author
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 04:33:05
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| I'm glad to have created some interest. One of the things I liked about writing the Uthgardt is that there was a lot of rich stuff to draw from, but it wasn't so complete that I couldn't add material of my own. I hope it's to your liking. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 05:43:37
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Oh, you've created more than just "some" interest from this Realms devotee... .
As I stated earlier, I've been eagerly anticipating a "good" barbarian novel for a very long time, an I'm not just talking only about the Realms here. I've read a few non-Realms/non-WotC barbarian novels over the past year, and I've grown weary of the brutish and imbecilic stereotype that some authors seem to equate with a "barbarian" type.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:21:26
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| Good point, sagacious one. I'm a fairly frequent player of Uthgardt in our FR campaigns, and often struggle against the perception of other players that barbarians must be unceasingly violent, unthinkingly brutal and willfully ignorant. And you're right, this is a pretty strong theme in fantasy literature too. Interestingly, Conan, who is pretty much the archetypal barbarian, is none of these things... if anything, he is the ultimate human, with the strength, cunning and honesty of the beast and the curiosity and the insight of a human. I wonder where it all went wrong? Any ideas? |
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:21:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oh, you've created more than just "some" interest from this Realms devotee... .
As I stated earlier, I've been eagerly anticipating a "good" barbarian novel for a very long time, an I'm not just talking only about the Realms here. I've read a few non-Realms/non-WotC barbarian novels over the past year, and I've grown weary of the brutish and imbecilic stereotype that some authors seem to equate with a "barbarian" type.
I'd thought I'd ask this. Have you read Dlance's Barbarian Trilogy? :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Ulrik Wolfsbane
Acolyte
New Zealand
27 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:25:37
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| Tell us something of it, Kuje... |
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:27:37
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Yes indeed, I did .
And while I'll always enjoy DL for the remarkable setting that it is, I felt there were some problems with the way the typical barbarian type was protrayed in that trilogy. I won't go into them here, mainly for two reasons, one... because I've already outlined my views on the trilogy elsewhere, and two... Alaundo's likely itching to use his famous Staff again, because to my knowledge, it hasn't seen all that much use lately...  .
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:39:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ulrik Wolfsbane
Good point, sagacious one. I'm a fairly frequent player of Uthgardt in our FR campaigns, and often struggle against the perception of other players that barbarians must be unceasingly violent, unthinkingly brutal and willfully ignorant. And you're right, this is a pretty strong theme in fantasy literature too. Interestingly, Conan, who is pretty much the archetypal barbarian, is none of these things... if anything, he is the ultimate human, with the strength, cunning and honesty of the beast and the curiosity and the insight of a human. I wonder where it all went wrong? Any ideas?
I think that following the model of Conan is a good start. I also think that the mistake most players make when using barbarian characters, is overlooking the fact that they can be just as diverse and dissimiliar as any other class.
To overcome such problems in my campaigns with regard to stereotyping any class, I always ask my players, BEFORE they even come close to my gaming table, to roughly outline what they want their PCs to achieve in a campaign, and how their charcter's individual natures will help or hinder achieving these goals. This is an important point in character creation for me, because if a player cannot justify his or her barbarian character beyond the point of wanting an individual who can rage and bring destruction down on his or her enemies, then I simply will not allow that player to use a barbarian character in my campaign.
An individual PC should be recognised by the players as being the sum of its histories and its experiences. The character you are going to use in a campaign should always reflect that. The class outlines provided in the PHB are just that... outlines. Players and DMs are meant to creatively expand on them.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 06:43:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ulrik Wolfsbane
Interestingly, Conan, who is pretty much the archetypal barbarian, is none of these things... if anything, he is the ultimate human, with the strength, cunning and honesty of the beast and the curiosity and the insight of a human. I wonder where it all went wrong? Any ideas?
One bad movie by a prominent action star; coupled with the fact that Western folk have long bought into the propaganda of cultures that, historically, were out to undermine "barbarian" cultures?
Anthropologically speaking, rural, tribal man is far mroe psychological and sociologically well adjusted and "in-touch" than urban, civilized man, who suffers from all sorts of stress and anxiety related quirks, disorders and illness and exists in a general state of alienation from his fellow and the world of nature.
In terms of Conan, well, what kind of "ignorant brute" can wander from culture to culture, over and over again, and not only quickly pick up the new language and culture, but also masters them to the extent that he is able to insinuated himself into the highest levels of the societies in question? Eventually, Conan becomes the leader of the mightiest nation in all of the Western Hyborean World, Aquilonian, and he steers it well. Clearly, not by mere strength alone did Conan rise to fame and glory. Jocks and geeks alike, beware!!
The same can be said of the historical barbarians of the West, whom, in contrast to the image painted in the movie 13th Warrior, more often found themselves in the position of having to learn a foreign tongue and culture, and who eventually emerged as the leaders of the West.
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"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
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The Uthgardt
