| Author |
 Topic  |
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 14:52:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Upon reading the last dozen posts, I've come to a realization: I would have been willing to read more drow novels with Pharaun. With Gromph and/or the rest of the Baenres (particularly Quenthel), though, I would retch.
I would also have enjoyed reading a novel focusing on any of the major characters from the expedition team over the older established characters featured within the series. I think the fact that I would have picked up a novel focusing on Pharaun, Ryld, Halisstra, Danifae, etc. is a testimony to the talent of the wonderful writing team that breathed life into these drow figures. To me, they all became multi-dimensional characters, something that I feel is lacking at times in other FR characters.
quote:
Pharaun returning as a conquering hero, so to speak, would have provided great opportunities for dramatic tension in that direction.
Pharaun returning would have been interesting. I think it could have been done without forcing a confrontation between Gromph and Pharaun. Yes, I think a confrontation upon Pharaun's arriving back in the city would be inevitable some time shortly after the return. However, if the series had simply ended with Pharaun's return, that potentail confrontation would have been a fascinating plot hook for any future FR author or designer to pick up. Alas, it apparently was not meant to be.
quote:
I guess I'm just naive. SiriusBlack was right - there was no way a sacred cow like House Baenre's dominance over Menzoberranzan would be hurt by this series. (To those who might want to sell me a complete set of Nether Scrolls, though - I'm not that naive. )
Don't call yourself naive. You were just hopeful. There's nothing wrong with that. I at times felt that way during the series even while my mind was screaming "Pipe Dreams SB! Pipe Dreams!" But, if you still wish to consider yourself naive, I don't have a set of Nether Scrolls to sell you. However, I do have a moonblade here, hardly ever used, only a few previous owners...
SB |
 |
|
|
Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 15:02:13
|
quote:
Don't call yourself naive. You were just hopeful. There's nothing wrong with that. I at times felt that way during the series even while my mind was screaming "Pipe Dreams SB! Pipe Dreams!"
Still, I should have known better. Menzoberranzan and House Baenre were unfortunately just too well-established for them to be rocked by some fundamental change in this series (and, presumably, any future WotC product mentioning them).
quote:
But, if you still wish to consider yourself naive, I don't have a set of Nether Scrolls to sell you. However, I do have a moonblade here, hardly ever used, only a few previous owners...
A moonblade, eh? Could you draw it first? |
|
|
|
Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 15:53:20
|
And to that, SB, I answer: There are things worse than death (I think any worshipper of Cyric or Lolth is aware of this) And an authorn such as Mr. Kemp could definately write tension for a 'last chance' sort of thing.
Yes, I know I'm reaching |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 18:07:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
And to that, SB, I answer: There are things worse than death (I think any worshipper of Cyric or Lolth is aware of this) And an authorn such as Mr. Kemp could definately write tension for a 'last chance' sort of thing.
Yes, I know I'm reaching
What's reaching for one person is nothing out of the ordinary for the next individual. But, I'll ask you this.
Okay, Pharaun and Ryld come back in a new novel. How many times can an author have them escape death for one last chance/novel? Indeed, how many times can an author use such a theme before it ceases to be interesting no matter how talented the writer and starts to become a punchline to a joke?
FR Fan #1: Did you see the game last night?
FR Fan #2: Yeah, I thought for sure the Lions were going to lose. But, in the fourth quarter, they pulled a Pharauan and got the win.
Both: <Laughter> |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 18:16:47
|
You know . . . this could work with other characters as well.
"When Sears and K-Mart starting talking about merging, I thought Sears would be the parent company, but K-Mart turned Sears into a Hallistra and took over the deal . . . "
Okay . . . maybe not. |
|
|
|
Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 20:27:55
|
| There are, however, totally logical ways out of a situation...the certainty a character won't 'die' isn't the biggest deterrent to an FR novel. Otherwise, who'd buy any Drizzt books? Who'd ever read Ed's stuff? Could anyone say they read Crown of Fire and thought for a second he'd leave Fzoul Chembryl dead? Would knowing there're five books in the Songs and Swords series detract from reading Elfshadow? |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 20:39:18
|
But there is a big difference between doubting a main character will die, and brining back a character. Somehow antagonists don't count. They aren't the focus, so it just doesn't have the same impact.
Ed had left Shandaril dead, and Elaine left Fyodor dead, to they do have standing precedents that show sometimes they have characters that die and don't come back.
|
|
|
|
Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:58:52
|
| However: Ed's said Shandril's story isn't over yet in his threat here. Moreover, Elaine's gotten predictable with her villains...I can't remember the last time I felt any tension that her villains wouldn't pull a Kymil |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 10:10:23
|
| Actually, I think the only one of Elaine's books that ever disappointed me was Thornhold, and that was mainly because there were so many loose ends that didn't seem to synch up, and of couse it doesn't seem like they ever will since no one really seems to want to let her pick up the threads again. |
|
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 12:51:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Actually, I think the only one of Elaine's books that ever disappointed me was Thornhold, and that was mainly because there were so many loose ends that didn't seem to synch up, and of couse it doesn't seem like they ever will since no one really seems to want to let her pick up the threads again.
Thornhold was irritating because of the paladins in the book. They are portrayed as really naive zealots who think in lines of:"We are good, and all who disagree with us are evil". Heck, that`s how most paladins are, which is the reason they are my least favorite class in all of FR. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 13:56:35
|
The role of paladins of Tyr in Waterdeep, let alone paladins in general in the City of Splendors, is widely varied. Elaine's book simply focuses on one of the several strains, in effect creating one sect of the church of Tyr. I found "Thornhold" to be a good source of game design ideas for this reason. I built on Elaine's work in City of Splendors: Waterdeep, detailing four factions of Tyr-worshipers and discussing how they work together and work at cross purposes.
--Eric |
--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 14:08:39
|
| Eric, that sounds like a cool idea. My biggest beef was that we never got a follow up on the traitor in their midst, who really caused a lot of the trouble in the first place. |
|
|
|
Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 14:28:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Eric, that sounds like a cool idea. My biggest beef was that we never got a follow up on the traitor in their midst, who really caused a lot of the trouble in the first place.
IIRC, Elaine Cunningham mentioned that there was supposed to be a sequel to Thornhold that would be named Darkhold, but unfortunately that never materialized. Ah, well. Considering how long it took for Windwalker to come out, we can still hope. |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 14:59:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
IIRC, Elaine Cunningham mentioned that there was supposed to be a sequel to Thornhold that would be named Darkhold, but unfortunately that never materialized. Ah, well. Considering how long it took for Windwalker to come out, we can still hope.
What's your source for that information? I don't recall hearing/reading about it before.
And to steer this a bit back towards topic, I saw at another web site that Paul Kemp believes a future gaming product will detail the changes from this series' events. I don't see that happening in any of the remaining 2005 FR releases. Thus, at the earliest, we will have to wait until 2006 to see how the gaming department addresses this series. |
|
|
|
Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 15:00:46
|
| Maybe she can sneak some stuff into a few short stories...or by some miracle, we could petition WOTC...who wouldn't want a good end to Arilyn and Dan, or Darkhold or a wrap up with Lamruil, Maura and Kymil? |
|
|
|
Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 15:08:36
|
quote:
What's your source for that information? I don't recall hearing/reading about it before.
I'm afraid that the title is the extent of my memory there, Sirius. I really can't recall where Elaine mentioned that. Sorry. Maybe, if she's taking questions again in her thread, someone could ask her. |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 16:28:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
I'm afraid that the title is the extent of my memory there, Sirius. I really can't recall where Elaine mentioned that. Sorry. Maybe, if she's taking questions again in her thread, someone could ask her.
No need to apologize. Thanks for replying. Given the tumultuous end to the Harper series, I would not be surprised that Elaine Cunningham originally had plans for a follow up novel. |
|
|
|
Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5699 Posts |
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 20:42:10
|
I got about 70 pages or so to finish but I kinda have to back up Sirius here. I didn't like how Eilistraee and Halisstra is protrayed..... It just seems off to me. Dunno I guess I've always seen Eilistraee and her church as something different then how it is writen in this series.
I'll add a bit more when I finish the rest of the book by the end of the wkend. :)
As for the rest of the book, it seems okay but I guess I have a different take on demons and yugoloths. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 21:20:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I got about 70 pages or so to finish but I kinda have to back up Sirius here. I didn't like how Eilistraee and Halisstra is protrayed..... It just seems off to me. Dunno I guess I've always seen Eilistraee and her church as something different then how it is writen in this series.
Thanks for the support kuje. As I previously mentioned, there were parts of the novel I enjoyed although at times it seems that is overlooked by others.
But, I do feel that the last two novels in this series do portray Eilistraee differently than I envision the faith. I believe you can be a follower of Eilistraee and still maintain a degree of intelligence and wisdom.
As for Halisstra, a side note here. An evolving character is fine as long as it is one that evolves logically with character traits exhibited in previous works still being present to some degree. When a character seems to change in an illogical manner and ignores previously exhibited traits, that's a bad thing, not a good thing.
quote:
As for the rest of the book, it seems okay but I guess I have a different take on demons and yugoloths. :)
I'll be curious to hear your thoughts there. Please do share them when you finish the novel kuje.
SB |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 02:07:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I'll be curious to hear your thoughts there. Please do share them when you finish the novel kuje.
SB
Welp I did finish earlier today. I guess I just didn't care that the fiends were just slaughtered so badly. They are fiends! But that's my beef and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
Since this series is finished, I'll repeat what you said and what I said earlier. I just didn't like how Eilistraee and her clergy were used. You said it best, "It seems that once your join her church you lose your intelligence and wisdom." :)
As for the Silence, well it'll never be included in my version of the setting because I use the Wheel/Ring and the Multiverse still and I see no reason for Lolth to move her plane. I'm a little glad though that WOTC at least gave an in game reason why her plane is no longer on the Abyss. It's better then the "It's always been this way," stuff we've been getting shoveled down our throats. :)
And frankly I'm getting tired of Lloth being able to walk all over Faerun and do what she wants. This is another reason why she'll never have any of Old Moldy's portfolios in my version. Or maybe I'm just jaded on the drow, like most others are.
But it was an interesting series but parts of it just bothered me and didn't ring true. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
R0GUE
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 09:34:06
|
I just finished Resurrection and let me say, the writing was good. But I echo Sirius' reservations about this book/series. Especially the parts about characters over plot, the poor treatment of Eilistraee and her worshippers, and the four untouchables. I also though Danifae becoming Lolth was a dead giveaway. I also have my own points of criticism. Please shy away if you are sensitive about such whining.
First off, where was Valas!!!!??? Ugh, he was the main reason I kept on reading this series. He was such a cool character and his little cameo at the end was not enough for me. I got so bored reading Resurrection without Valas in it. I will say, he was probably the only smart one in the whole bunch. I too would have wiped my hands clean of the whole affair once they found themselves heading to the Demonweb Pits. Only death or Yorth'ae was sure to follow.
I was really really really disappointed in seeing that the deaths of Jeggred and Pharaun did not come at the hands of each other. I kept thinking as I read through the book, "well at least I bet I will be rewarded with a really cool battle between these two, in which one of them finally gets the axe." but no it was not to be. And no I don't count Jeggred throwing Pharaun off the cliff. If anyone killed Pharaun it was Inthracis, then Quenthel, and then the host of spiders, in that order.
I felt the whole Gromph getting through the wards to get to the phylactary could have been over and done with in one chapter at the beginning of the book. This whole subplot of the novel bored me to tears, especially since we all knew Gromph wasn't going to die (see Sirius' black point about the 4 untouchables). I would have preferred all that extra page space to have gone to actual explanations of what Lolth's new form and avatar would mean for the future of the drow. Of course it turns out, there really aren't that many consequences. As Valas notes, things are pretty much back to the way they were before the absence of Lolth. 
In addition to Eilistraee and her followers being downplayed, I am sick and tired of duergar being treated as stupid as orcs. Duergar, in my mind should be as badass and tough as regular dwarves, only evil. WotC keeps telling us they are trying to get away from the "dwarves as comic relief", but I never see it happening. Had Horgar put up some sort of fight against Nimor, then I might have held some of hope out that maybe things weren't going to turn out as predetermined as they seemed. But alas no, duergar are stupid and worthless, as always, and so we should glean from that, nothing is really going to change. |
Edited by - R0GUE on 01 May 2005 09:37:57 |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 09:46:52
|
I really have to say this. I really liked the parts of this book that I feel had Paul S Kemp's "personal stamp" on them. I also know he wants people who read it to blame him for everything that they didn't like becuause his name is on the cover. God bless him, but I am sure he knows better, lol.
I think we needed to see Gromph deal with some complex magical problems to reassure us that he was indeed a competent and skilled wizard, considering the duel that he had with the Lichdrow Dyrr in the last book. Gromph may have been untouchable, but he has kinda grown on me, so at least if he is going to survive, let him save face.
Okay . . . to use metagame logic here. Pharaun, Jeggred, Danifae, and Quenthel are Chaotic evil, and besides any religious zealotry (obviously a factor with the females), there is that element of "greater dangers, greater rewards" that I think is pretty obvious to see when you read Pharaun's thoughts in the book.
On the other hand, Valas, as a mercenary and member of Breagan D'earthe, is likely neutral evil, willing to get his hands dirty to benefit himself, but not willing to take enormous risks for potentially small payoffs. I think in the end Valas not going gave us as much insight into his character as any of the books where he actually put in lengthier appearances. |
|
|
|
Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 12:09:44
|
Finished the book this morning and absolutely loved it! As I mentioned over in Paul's thread, I'm no great Drizzt\drow fanboy but this series has really made a lasting impression. I had a lot of expectations from the final book and Paul Kemp exceeded these expectations! 
Whilst the start was a little slow paced, it did well to reestablish the current situation of the characters. The ending and the Yor'thae did take me by surprise too. I wasn't expecting that outcome and when Lolth first bit into Danifae I was shocked! It was a nice touch that Danifae emerged whereas it was written that she had been the first to be slain.
The loose-end's were nicely done too. It was good to read just short tie-up's of Khaanyr Vhok and Ched Nasad etc. Those scenes were like closing doors for me and left me feeling a little empty... in a good way of course.
The whole situation between Gromph and the hunt for the phylactery (sp) was nail-biting! I thought these scenes were very well written and built up the tension just right. Paul did a great job of portraying Gromph as the powerful archmage we know. His vast intelligence really shone again in these scenes.
Pharaun's death was necessary, IMO. I was constantly expecting a final battle between Pharaun and Jeggred however. With Ryld gone, his partner in crime just seemed saddened and not whole without him. I feel that Pharaun is now at peace and reunited with Ryld... which gives me a nice warm feeling inside  Pharaun was a very well written character throughout the series and the impact on fans of killing off such a well-liked character just adds to the overall impression that the book has had. A very wise and clever move by Paul on this.
The final scenes were great. The Halisstra\Danifae scene was excellent. Even though Halisstra had shed her devoting to Eilistraee, a little bit of it came back when Danifae said sorry. It touched her and weakened her... just enough for the traitorous nature of the drow to take advantage and Danifae turn on her again. Fantastic!
I was so happy to read the small passages about Valas. Valas was one of my favorite characters and I was saddened when he departed in Annihilation and nothing was mentioned again in Resurrection, until the very end.
This novel has left a very lasting impression on me. The whole series is in my top three favorite FR series.
Great work, Paul. Many thanks and much praise for wrapping up a stunning series with a stunning final novel. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
|
|
|
|
Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 13:41:37
|
I wish Quenthel had died as well... She's the character I most wanted to see die, after Jeggred. Not just because I despise her personality, not just because she's partly responsible for Pharaun's death, but because it would have weakened House Baenre, of which I'm heartily sick of.
EDIT: I wonder if Paul considered killing Quenthel? He mentioned he considered letting Pharaun live, so maybe he considered the reverse for her. |
Edited by - Krafus on 01 May 2005 13:43:03 |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 16:46:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by R0GUE
I just finished Resurrection and let me say, the writing was good. But I echo Sirius' reservations about this book/series. Especially the parts about characters over plot, the poor treatment of Eilistraee and her worshippers, and the four untouchables.
The latter term is becoming quite popular with others as I've seen recently.
quote:
I also though Danifae becoming Lolth was a dead giveaway.
Did you vote for her in the poll I set up?
quote:
First off, where was Valas!!!!??? Ugh, he was the main reason I kept on reading this series. He was such a cool character and his little cameo at the end was not enough for me. I got so bored reading Resurrection without Valas in it. I will say, he was probably the only smart one in the whole bunch.
Look at it this way, you might have a better chance of seeing him within a new FR novel than fans of some other series' characters.
quote:
I would have preferred all that extra page space to have gone to actual explanations of what Lolth's new form and avatar would mean for the future of the drow.
I would have liked that too, but I don't think it would have been possible because I'm not quite sure WOTC has fully decided yet everything it might mean for the drow.
The biggest thing to recall in that area is all we have is what Paul Kemp has posted on his blog regarding the series' conclusions and what it means. However, he has also clearly mentioned that "all of this is based on my understanding of what the series did, not discussions with designers." Thus, I'm left with this fear that when designers finally get around to putting this series' events into gaming terms, something will be different and/or changed from what Mr. Kemp posted. I can only envision the reaction then despite Paul's disclaimer. |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 16:49:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
I feel that Pharaun is now at peace and reunited with Ryld... which gives me a nice warm feeling inside
Yeah, the afterlife for drow who follow Lolth looks really cheery from what we've seen in this novel series. |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 19:23:00
|
I saw on the New York Times web site today that:
RESURRECTION, by Paul S. Kemp. (Wizards of the Coast, $24.95) is listed as #30 on the Hardcover Fiction best seller list for 05/08.
Congrats to Mr. Kemp and everyone involved in the novel's publication. |
|
|
|
R0GUE
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2005 : 19:41:41
|
| I didn't vote for her, because I was avoiding the forums at the time. I always get afraid of inadvertantly running into spoilers hehe. |
You have had your pocket pilfered by the R0GUE.  |
|
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2005 : 09:35:57
|
| The biggest thing that irritates me about this series(after the deaths of ryld and pharaun) is House Baenre. I mean, Loith is the goddess of chaos, and Baenre has been around for so long now! It practically goes against Loiths faith to let them rule Menzoberranzan for this long! |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Resurrection (WotSQ #6) - SPOILERS
