| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 22:15:47
|
Hi again folks!
Have you seen my other, trade related post? While the other post focus on travel distance, time, weather, and other stuff, this post focus on what goods a merchant company would carry from Suzail to Dagger Falls.
Goods
-----
Now, with FRCS, looking at the Exports entry for Cormyr, and the Imports entry for Dagger Falls, I pick out the following goods:
- Armors
- Cloth
- Weapons (swords)
Please note, that I was first thinking of looking at a Tilverton - Dagger Falls trade route, but, with the trade entries of FRCS in my left hand and with Volo's Guide to Cormmyr (see Trade in page 17) on my right hand, I feel that Suzail is a better choise:
"Most folk of other lands don't think of Suzail as a source of fine armor and blades, but they do remember the city for the good, durable, everyday woolen clothes that are often trimmed with leather it produces."
Armors
------
Now, we need to switch source book and move to the great Races of Faerūn. In page 87, we have a list of arms and armors that the Chondathans employ. The most common armors would then be chainmails and chain shirts, and would be sold at 90% of PHB prices. However, Chondthans like also leather armors, studded leather armors, breastplates, and half-plates.
But, first of all, for whom do you think that the armors are for? Randal Morn's soldiers and those "middle class" farmers that can afford a chain shirt (either local or imported)? Or Daggerdalian "upper class" that whant exclusive goods. That is, are we talking about fine quality stuff that costs the double (or more) and are ment only for the rich, or armors of good quality that costs 10% than an average armor?
In addition, that "fine" armor, that will be transported all the way to Dagger Falls, how much does it cost in Suzail? And, what will the price be when it reaches Dagger Falls? Any suggestions?
Cloth
-----
Here, I have similar questions for you. Cloth for the common Daggerdalian, or only fine cloth for the few and rich?
Swords
------
Again, same questions regarding the consumer. But then, what else than longswords, short swords, and daggers? I can imagine, that standard swords to build up an army could be produced and transported together with fine and expendive swords for the rich. But, maybe, it is necessary to know a bit more about Suzail and its goods and Dagger Falls and its needs. Comments?
And yes ... what does that sword cost in Suzail ... before it reaches Dagger Falls?
Best regards,
Manuel
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2005 : 05:26:20
|
As most of Daggerdale is impoverished thanks to years of Zhent occupation theres probably not much of a middle class and I imagine theres probably not many rich people in Daggerdale either.
Any wealthy people are probably likely to buy Masterwork weapons instead of regular weapons.
As for Trade
Daggerdale probably exports Cormyr Ore and Cormyr exports Armour and Weapons back to Daggerdale
Given recent events in Cormyr its possiable that Daggerdale may be exporting Meat to Cormyr (Due to the drought caused by the Shades and the destruction rort by the Devil Dragon's goblin armies)
If you cant find a descent transport cost system then I suggest the follwoing
Use the map on page 100-101 of the FRC and use the following system to caculate cost
For every politcial zone the caravan has to pass through to get to its destination add 5% to the cost of the item which in the case Cormyr to Daggerdale would be 10% as the caravan travels through 2 regions Cormyr and the Dalelands (subject to Dms modification to account for banditry or other external factors)
|
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
 |
|
|
webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 00:20:01
|
Hi,
OK, I have now a merchant group heading towards Dagger Falls with three wagons. One of the wagons is carrying food and other stuff necessary for the four tendays long trip. Thus, only two wagons (2 wagons x 2,000 pounds per wagon gives a total capacity of 4,000 pounds of goods) will carry goods for trade. But, you might be interested in the goods that are beeing transported from Suzail.
Table 1 -- Goods
========================================================================
Item # lbs Value
========================================================================
Chain mails, good quality 12 480 2,430
Chain shirts, good quality 12 300 1,620
Cloth (10 sq. yds), good quality 72 720 3,600
Daggers, good quality 240 240 720
Longswords, good quality 72 288 1,458
Short swords, good quality 72 216 1,080
========================================================================
2,244 10,908 gp
Gharri“s Longswords
-------------------
Gharri the swordsmith (CE male Chondathan human Exp3, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +10 (7 ranks, +2 Skill Focus, +1 Int)) lives in Suzail and makes a living out of crafting longswords among other type of swords. Among Chondathans, longswords are common and can be purchased for 10% less. In average, Gharri manages to sell five longswords each month and earns then a total of 40 - 45 gold pieces (13.5 gp/sword minus 13.5/3 gp in material cost gives a revenue of 9 gp/sword). He could, if he worked 30 days in a row, craft up to 6 longswords.
One day, he decided to craft a fine longsword, that he could sell for more than 13.5 gp. He spent 7.5 gp in material and managed to create a longsword with a beutiful hilt and elegant blade. It took him almost seven days to create that single longsword. That day, did Asheyron the Merchant came by, and Gharri demonstrated his latest longsword. Asheyron measured the fine longsword, and told Gharri, that if he could produce three more swords, of the same fine quality, he would pay him 80 gp for all the four swords.
To make a long story short, Asheyron persuaded Gharri and five other members of the guild to craft a total of 72 fine longswords to a value of 1,458 gp.
Dagger Falls
------------
Dagger Falls in midsummer 1372 DR, is a large town of 2,804 inhabitants [FRCS]. It is a town with a tremendous growth rate, as it had 800 inhabitants year 1369 DR [Volo's Guide to the Dalelands]. Most probably, after the defeat of the zhents, people from the countryside have travelled to the town in hope of finding a better life.
In my campaign, beside herdsmen, peasants, farmers, and so, there exists several upper class families in Daggerdale: 224 families of "minor landowners", 23 families of "major landowners", and 5 apointed land lords called "markherrar" (Swedish). Thus, there are folks belonging to the upper classes, or at least, the upper middle class.
Dorn Yarmiir
------------
In Daggerfalls lives a greedy merchant named Dorn Yarmiir (LE male Chondathan human Exp4, 35 years). Dorn hates all zhents and despises all 'non genuine' Daggerdalesmen, specially northern Daggerdalesmen (Vaasan Daggerdalesmen). Cormyrians, he does like, and he has done some businees before. Dorn has been expecting the Asheyron“s merchant party from Suzail., and in Thund“s warehouses, he has ore that he wants to sell to Asheyron. Asheyron has not come himself to Dagger Falls, but, he and Dorn had a business agreement.
It is now, that we have a problem. A decision has to be taken regarding at what price Dorn will buy the goods. It could be 110% of the value, 200% of the value, or much more. Let's assume that Asheyron is in Dagger Falls to discuss the deal, so that Dorn Yarmiir does not get a too good price ...
... OK ... this might get a long discussion, or, maybe not ... goods from Cormyr to the Dalelands could go for 200%, and if those goods were transported to The Sword Coast, they would go for 300%, Waterdeep 400%, and Icewind Dale, 500%. That would be 100% for each crossed region. Thus, Dorn would had to pay 40.5 gp for one of Gharri“s longswords.
Kythorn“s Thorp
---------------
East of Dagger Falls, following the Tesh Trail for six miles, there is a thorp named Kythorn“s Thorp, named after a fellow who was bourn in the month Kythorn and was named Kythorn. In Kythorn“s Torph lives several families, with the Dunwoods, a family of minor landowners, beeing the most prominent. Doalogh Dunwood (CE male Chondathan human Exp3, 27 years), the head of the Dunwood family, is the owner of 40 acres of farmland. In Kythorn“s Thorp lives also a farmer named Griar (NG male Vaasan human Com7, 31 years). Griar and his family lives in a cottage and works the familiy's fields that consists of 2 acres of farmland. Doalogh and Griar do not like each other, as Doalogh is a supporter of Randal Morn and Griar is not.
Fine Longswords for Sale in Dagger Falls
----------------------------------------
Doalogh Dunwood travells to Dagger Falls to buy a fine sword to give away as a gift. Doalogh visits Dorn“s shop, asking for a fine longsword. And, Dorn shows him four longswords, and tells him the prices in silver pieces (silverdaler):
- A used longsword, crafted years ago in Dagger Falls by a zhentish swordsmith (110 silverdaler).
- A regular longsword, crafted in Essembra by Durn the Red (230 silverdaler).
- A fine longsword, crafted in Suzail by the Cormyrian swordsmith Gharri (630 silverdaler).
- A masterwork longsword, crafted some time ago by a Brightblade dwarf (4.410 silverdaler).
Comments?
/Manuel |
Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
Edited by - webmanus on 21 Apr 2005 00:21:05 |
|
|
|
webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2005 : 16:21:47
|
Maybe, I should add some details to the prices for the swords above ... I just do not manage to bring back all those figures I played with yesterday. Nevertheless, revised prices below:
Table 2 -- Longswords in Silverdaler (sd)
=================================================================
Item BP Q TM MM Price
=================================================================
Used longsword 135 x0.6 x1 x1.4 110 sd
Regular longsword 135 x1 x1.2 x1.4 230 sd
Fine longsword 135 x1.5 x2 x1.4 570 sd
Masterwork longsword 3,135 N/A x1 x1.4 3,970 sd
=================================================================
BP (Base Price): Among Chondathans, longsword are common, and costs 90% of the price stated in the PHB. Thus, a longsword costs 15 gp x 0.9 = 13.5 gp.
Q (Quality): A low quality weapon is modified with "x0.6"; A weapon of normal quality is modified with "x1.0"; A weapon of fine quality is modified with "x1.5"; Masterwork weapon costs +300 gp, however, that is applied to the base price.
TM (Transport Modifier): Items that are transported from one place to another, are modified with 10% per each subregion it is transported through. For example, an item that is transported from Essembra in Battledale to Dagger Falls in Daggerdale, is modified with 20%. However, an item that is transported through one region (Cormyr to the Dalelands) is modified with 100%.
MM (Merchant Modifier): It is just how much more the merchant wants for the item. |
Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
Edited by - webmanus on 21 Apr 2005 16:22:44 |
|
|
|
webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 21:01:44
|
Hi folks!
How much do you think that it would cost, in expenses such as tolls, to transport the above goods from Suzail, via Arabel and Tilverton (if it existed), to Dagger Falls? The goods would be transported in two wagons.
/Manuel |
|
|
|
webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 22:26:58
|
| OK, lets say that the merchants would have to pay toll in Arabel, Tilverton, and Dagger Falls, and then 10% of the transported value, then it would mean that the merchants would have to pay 10,908 x 0.1 x 3 gp, that is, a total of 3,272 gp. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 22:48:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
OK, lets say that the merchants would have to pay toll in Arabel, Tilverton, and Dagger Falls, and then 10% of the transported value, then it would mean that the merchants would have to pay 10,908 x 0.1 x 3 gp, that is, a total of 3,272 gp.
Hmm, the toll most likely would be accessed on the local value, not base value.
That is if the market value of an item doubled in price because of transport. The 10 percent toll would be twice as much as a local toll. Thus the further one got away from the source of the produced rare goods, the more would be charged to move though to a more distant area.
Other types of tolls though also can exist. Some tolls are not on goods, but just on traffic. A person crarged 5 sp, a horse or other large animal charged 10 sp and a wagon (with two horses) charged 20 sp.
The later might be easier to use then a 10 percent of value of goods, or both could be accessed depending on how greedy a city/town is. The basic rule of taxing (of which a toll is one type of) get at minimun the amount needed to maitian service and at maximun as mch as you can get before they find anoter way cheeper. Most will be somewhere between these two posibilities. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 09:25:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
... OK ... this might get a long discussion, or, maybe not ... goods from Cormyr to the Dalelands could go for 200%, and if those goods were transported to The Sword Coast, they would go for 300%, Waterdeep 400%, and Icewind Dale, 500%. That would be 100% for each crossed region. Thus, Dorn would had to pay 40.5 gp for one of Gharri“s longswords.
...a few words about that one:
you“re right: the farther you travel, the more your wares will cost. in other words: your costs will rise, but not inevitably the price/market value of your wares !
why should a masterwork sword from the dales be bought in waterdeep for the five-fold of it“s original price, when you could have five masterwork swords that were forged in waterdeep (or nearby) for the same price?
that "mechanism" of rising costs and (nearly) constant demand is what limits commercial travel (caravans) : it“s just not reasonable to sell mistledale grain in waterdeep, because while the costs of shipping rise, the value of the commodity does not. this applies (in various degrees) to all merchandise and should be taken into account whenever one assembles a caravan. |
Edited by - tauster on 29 Apr 2005 09:25:45 |
|
|
|
webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 10:58:17
|
Hi Tauster,
Yes, you are so right. There is no point in travelling half the Realms to sell something expensive that could be bought cheaper. However, please note, that I am kind of searching for a simple trade system.
I am, focusing in the Suzail to Dagger Falls trade route. And, according to the FRCS, and other books, Suzail produces fine swords and Dagger Falls imports weapons.
Thus, in Dagger Falls (and Daggerdale), that is in need of weapons, there is no single swordsmith in Dagger Falls, or, maybe there is one swordsmith that either takes too much for his swords (for example, 15 gp x 4), or produces such bad quality weapons that are more or less worthless; that is, the blacksmith is a Commoner 1 with 1 rank in Craft (weaponsmithing) :) Another issue could be that Dagger Falls (and Daggerdale) import fine quality goods, and not simple common goods.
The example for Suzail -- Waterdeep is bad, but, maybe, the % modifications could also be applied, but then to other goods
So, what do you think that is happening in Dagger Falls (Daggerdale) that needs to import weapons? No single sworthsmith? Sworthsmiths that should do something else?
Best regards,
Manuel |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 13:34:07
|
The only other trade mechcanism I can think of instead of adding 5 percent market value would be purchase at a discount. This of course does not help recover costs for longer trips because each mile traveled will cost more but selling price remains the same. The only reason to travel further would because the closer communities have all they want so can not be sold.
The only idea that might even become close to working is paying the smith 2/3 of market price. The smith would have a 100 percent profit compared to the cost of materials (unless has low rank/mods in skill and fails skill check badly). The merchant then finding a customer would be able to sell at market price, generating a gross income of 1/3 of market price.
This would pervent price inflation from travel, thus keep all market prices the same. Not sure how far the limit on travel would be, it would depend on the amount of goods and their value to a large extent. At some point in time all goods would reach a point that there is no reason at all to transport them.
The idea of fine crafted weapons increasing in price, might be treated more as objects of art that become more valuable the further they travel from the source. Which is the best justification for the market value increase. The rarity of them.
The game design is not geared at all to economics, however there needs to be an in game reason for merchants to travel as traders.
Of course thie 2/3 market price does nothing for commodities. A merchant can not buy gold from the mine at 2/3 of the market value of gold.
As is already noted there is no justification for transport of grain as it can be sold locally for the same amount as if transported even one day.
A simple trade system is what is requested.
A more complicated one could be develped where supply and demand results in different market values. This however would be a major undertaking and could result in other complications. The smith where there is a high supply might not be able to recover the cost of making an item. The cost of food would be higher in cities, as would be resulting costs of meals, which would effect the amount of wages workers would require. It would be far from simple and if completed the populations might shift because of economics. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 15:39:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by webmanus
Hi Tauster,
Yes, you are so right. There is no point in travelling half the Realms to sell something expensive that could be bought cheaper. However, please note, that I am kind of searching for a simple trade system.
i am looking for the same, because trade is an important factor in the realms. there“s even a statement somewhere in either the old (2e) or new (3e) forgotten realms campaign set that states that trade is the "lifeblood" of ...faerun (or something like that), even though faerun“s economy is one of the most neglected aspects in the game...
quote:
I am, focusing in the Suzail to Dagger Falls trade route. And, according to the FRCS, and other books, Suzail produces fine swords and Dagger Falls imports weapons.
...i thought there was a smith in dagger falls, but i could be wrong... but if removing the smith is what makes trade possible (and thus adds to the worlds flavour), i have no problem with it. the smith could have been belonged to the zhentarim and had to flee during the towns liberation (sword of the dales triology), or he was a zhentish spy (or shapeshifter with allegiances to unknown parties) that was finally discovered, or... there are endless possibilities. he could have even died of old age. 
quote:
Thus, in Dagger Falls (and Daggerdale), that is in need of weapons, there is no single swordsmith in Dagger Falls, or, maybe there is one swordsmith that either takes too much for his swords (for example, 15 gp x 4), or produces such bad quality weapons that are more or less worthless; that is, the blacksmith is a Commoner 1 with 1 rank in Craft (weaponsmithing) :) Another issue could be that Dagger Falls (and Daggerdale) import fine quality goods, and not simple common goods.
a bad smith is even better than no smith at all!  that way, there“s another possibilities for adventure:
- the "bad smith" hires the (low level) adventurers to prevent the merchant from selling weapons, either by violence, intrigue or other means.
- the merchant hires the party as bodyguards, or to investigate who tries to get him out of town. he expects zhentish spies (the smith tries to blame them by letting his hired agents leave behind clues that lead to zhentile keep), so he feares for his live.
quote:
So, what do you think that is happening in Dagger Falls (Daggerdale) that needs to import weapons? No single sworthsmith? Sworthsmiths that should do something else?
the most simple reasons would either no (weapon)smith at all or a bad one. other possibilities that come to mind:
- randal morn tries to establish a dale-wide militia or has decided that now, after the liberation fo dagger falls, his freedom riders should be converted into a small standing army/militia and need better weapons therefore.
- an formerly unknown party settles down somewhere in daggerdale and wants to buy lots of weapons. perhaps the dwarves of tethyamar have finally decided to take their realm back in one single, large-scale "blitzkrieg-campaign". ...ok, bad example, as the dwarves would probably use dwarven- and not human-made weapons...
|
|
|
|
tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 16:19:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The only reason to travel further would because the closer communities have all they want so can not be sold.
true, that“s one of the main reasons. an example for "intra-dale"- traffic:
many dales are primarily agricultural, so they "export" grain, fruit, vegetable and animals (cows, sheep, poultry, pigs (there“s a freehold in eastern mistledale that breeds winged pigs, btw! ).
it is not unreasonable to assume that in the mountains around the dales (desertsmouth mntns & thunder peaks) there are many small mining communities, who export ore or trading bars of various metals and import food.
in these communities wood and coal is in high demand, so there“s additional trade with communities or camps of loggers and charburners (1) - who export wood and coal and import tools and food (as well as beer and stronger spirits, but mostly bottom shelf liquor... ). i can even imagine a "travelling festhall", complete with lowcoin-girls (and some boys, dependent on campaign style and the maturity of players).
(1)there“s even an example for such a community on wizards website: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/vv/20041224a
quote:
The only idea that might even become close to working is paying the smith 2/3 of market price. The smith would have a 100 percent profit compared to the cost of materials (unless has low rank/mods in skill and fails skill check badly). The merchant then finding a customer would be able to sell at market price, generating a gross income of 1/3 of market price.
This would pervent price inflation from travel, thus keep all market prices the same. Not sure how far the limit on travel would be, it would depend on the amount of goods and their value to a large extent. At some point in time all goods would reach a point that there is no reason at all to transport them.
i guess the price in the players handbook (whatever edition) is the price that a customer pays, so unless the smith sells his weapons himself, he is likely to get paid less from a "distributor/in-betweener". there was a very useful price list in the AlQadim- campaign set (the players guide,iirc), with three prices for each item, dependent on how good one bargained.
quote:
The idea of fine crafted weapons increasing in price, might be treated more as objects of art that become more valuable the further they travel from the source. Which is the best justification for the market value increase. The rarity of them.
that“s what solves lots of problems, because many items adventurers need fall under this category: fine (mundane) weapons and armor, material components for mages/clerics, etc. the downside is that this does not explain the lion“s share of travelling merchants.
on the other side: has anyone asked himself where all those material components and arcane paraphernalia actually come from? there is - or at least should be - a whole branch of trade involved in hunting strange and dangerous beasts, getting them back to civilazation, processing and afterwards distributing them. btw, that“s a really good lucrative way of making money and gaining experience for low- and midlevel parties!
quote:
The game design is not geared at all to economics, however there needs to be an in game reason for merchants to travel as traders.
it“s sad that we see only few economic aspects of the realms. i think that the potential for adventure and added flair that more economic background would bring is grossly underestimated. btw, i am a student of business administration and and economics, so i am likely more than a bit biased...
quote:
As is already noted there is no justification for transport of grain as it can be sold locally for the same amount as if transported even one day.
see my "miniature dalelands- economy": there are different types of communities, each with a focus on a different product. this might be an interesting question for ed greenwood: to what degree can division of labour be seen in the realms at large and in [insert favourite region] in particular?
quote:
A more complicated one could be develped where supply and demand results in different market values. This however would be a major undertaking and could result in other complications. The smith where there is a high supply might not be able to recover the cost of making an item. The cost of food would be higher in cities, as would be resulting costs of meals, which would effect the amount of wages workers would require. It would be far from simple and if completed the populations might shift because of economics.
that“s what a very interesting campaign might be made of: a small group of people (=the pc“s), being hired by a (thayvian, sembian, cormyrean, waterdhavian, zhentish,...) merchant to find (or even create ) shortages somewhere else!
|
|
|
|
webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 23:01:47
|
Hi Tauster and Kentinal,
When I started to think on trade, and prices, everything just got some much complicated. Nevertheless, I am very curious on this issue. I did ask myself, what will a longsword cost in Suzail, and how much would a longsword cost in Dagger Falls. And, I also tought, who is selling the sword, that is, is it the swordsmith who crafts and sells the longswords to the enduser, or someone else, for example, the owner of a general store. I started also to look in more details at the Craft skill in PHB 3.0, and then I moved to the DMG 3.0 and looked at the upkeep costs in page 142. I have also looked at the Import and Export entries for Cormyr and Daggerdale in the FRCS.
Why Must a Longswrod Cost 15 gp?
--------------------------------
Now, without taking into consideration Chondathans x0,90 modification of costs for longsword (Races of Faerūn, page 87), I think, that the prise the enduser must pay, when buying a longsword from the producer, is the PHB price of 15 gp.
Now, why must a longsword cost 15 gp? Well, the PHB says so. But then, does it mean that longswords all over Faerūn, will cost 15 gp? No matter local conditions? I think that the price of 15 gp is based on certain conditions. And, as long as those conditions are met, conditions such as, the longsword is crafted in town, and has not been transported 500 miles, then 15 gp is what it will cost to buy the longsword. Furthermore, I think that the cost includes cost for transport of the material from a remote mine. Thus, 15 gp is what a longsword costs in a town with the required ore imported from a remote area.
But again, why must a longsword cost 15 gp? What could be an in-game reason for having the prise of 15 gp? Here, we could get help of the following rules. But, first, we need again a sworthsmith, and who else better than Gharri the swordsmith (CE male Chondathan human Exp4, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 10, Craft (Weaponsmithing) +10 (7 ranks, +2 Skill Focus, +1 Int))? Did you notice that I have increased Gharris level by one? I did a minor rule blunder. Gharri (Exp3) had 7 ranks, and that is not possible. A 4th-level character can have 7 ranks in a skill.
#1. OK, back to the rules. According to the PHB 3.0, page 65 - 66 (Skills, Craft), a craftsman can earn half the check result in a week (7 days). So, in average, Gharri could earn ( 10 + d20 ) / 2 gp per week, that is, with a skill modifier of +10, and an average d20 roll of 10, Gharri would earn 10 gp per week. And, this could be, for a whole Faerūnian month, 30 x 10 / 7 = 42.86 gp. This would mean that Gharri has to sell around 4 swords each month; 4 x ( 15 gp - 5 gp ) = 40 gp.
#2. But, it is also possible to go into more details, also using the rules in the PHB 3.0, although, this part is primary ment on calculating the time it takes to craft an item. The DC for crafting a longsword would be 15, and the "skill check times DC" required to finnishing the longsword would be the longsword's price in silver pieces, that is 150. A skill check representing one whole weeks work, would in average, for Gharri, be 20, and 20 times the DC of 15, would be 300 "skill check times DC". Thus, for Gharri, it would take him 3.5 days to craft a longsword. Gharri could craft, up to 27 / 3.5 = 7.7 ~ 8 swords in a month; taking into consideration that he would take one day of the tenday off. Now, if he managed to sell 8 longswords each month, then he would earn 10 gp x 8, that is, 80 gp each month. Now again, this part of the rules if more for finding out how much time it takes to craft an item. And, there is nothing that says that Gharri can sell 8 swords each month.
#3. The rules of upkeep, primary ment for PCs, helps a bit. According to it, a PC could have a "common living" (decent?) for 45 gp a month. A NPC, with a common living, whould have a good life. Most probably, support a family.
So, with point #1 and #3 above, I come to the conclusion that a price of 15 gp, is OK, at least for a swordsmith making a living out of longswords. Now, in a city such as Suzail, the guilds regulate the trade. Maybe, the guild of swordsmiths, or weaponsmiths, or something like that, has determined that a longsword must be sold for 15 gp, more or less. In that way, the guild will secure a "common living" for its members.
Dagger Falls
------------
Now, if there is no swordsmith in Dagger Falls, and there are many persons that want to buy swords, then the price would increase. Again, according to the FRCS, Daggerdale imports weapons. It could be weapons from Suzail, but it could also be weapons from other towns and countries. Nothing is mentioned if Daggerfalls imports regular weapons, or fine quality weapons.
If there are only four NPCs in Dagger Falls, and whole Daggerdale, that wants to buy a longsword, and each of the NPC can only afford 15 gp, then, as long as nobody sells longswords, there is not much they can do with their gold. If there is sudently one sword for sale, used or not used, then the sword could be sold for 15 gp, but not more. However, if there is one NPC that can afford 30 gp for a longsword, then we would be able to buy the longsword for 20, 25, or 30 gp. Transporting longswords from Suzail to Dagger Falls, no matter if the longswords are regular, fine, or masterwork, will have costs for the merchants, and costs and profits, modified by risks, must be added to the cost of a longsword.
I think, that just 10% of added price, is too low, but then, that is what I believe. I believe that 100% of markup, is more appropiate. May goal, is to try to roughly calculate costs for a merchant group ... as you have sean in the other posts ... thanks for your help again ... By doing that, it is easier to decide what the markup of a longsword is ... 10% or 100%. So, if a PC or NPC wants to buy a longsword in Dagger Falls, then he must pay at least 30 gp for a sword, maybe more. And, yes, then we all understand that the players will start picking up each foe's longswords and sell them and make a good living out of that. So, what can you do about it ...? You could accept that regular longswords at the cost of 30 gp are uncommon items. Then, not every Freedom Rider would carry a longsword, not every farmer would own a longsword, and so on.
But, if there is one single swordsmith, such as Gharri, longswords could cost 15 gp. But then, what is the point of importing weapons if there is a local swordsmith. Maybe, the local swordsmith makes too few weapons to meet the demand. He charges 15 gp for each sword, but not everybody gets a sword. He could also charge more, why not? Those that can pay, get what they whant, while the others not. The sole swordsmith could charge x2, x3, and so on. Then, southern merchants come with fresh weapons to sell, but for 30 or more gp. There is competition, or maybe not. An empty space could be filled.
Now, up to how many swordsmiths could Dagger Falls have? With the help of World Builders Guide, by Richard Baker, it could be 0 - 5, or 0 - 6, but most probably, just one. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2005 : 07:20:37
|
webmanus hi there.
As to trade and your points of concern the esay answer is that the game is designed much more about the individual. That there happen to be 60+ million NPCs in the game world does not matter that much. Trade occurs, farmers farm, traders trade goods, miners dig ore out of the ground, others process it and so on.
The things like if there is a smith in a town is for the reason of repairing PC weapons, prehaps the purchase of a weapon and sometimes the sale of a weapon (though others can be found to buy as well). The game does not explain what the smith does the rest of the time while waiting for a PC to show up. This is not part of the design. Many players do not care about such details, they only care about wht is near their PCs. Finding a smith to repait armor, finding a store when food is needed and so on.
( #1. OK, back to the rules. According to the PHB 3.0, page 65 - 66 (Skills, Craft), a craftsman can earn half the check result in a week (7 days). So, in average, Gharri could earn ( 10 + d20 ) / 2 gp per week, that is, with a skill modifier of +10, and an average d20 roll of 10, Gharri would earn 10 gp per week. And, this could be, for a whole Faerūnian month, 30 x 10 / 7 = 42.86 gp. This would mean that Gharri has to sell around 4 swords each month; 4 x ( 15 gp - 5 gp ) = 40 gp.)
Should change to tendays I would think in calculations (because day work is based on 1/10th of a week and 10, Gharri would earn 10 gp per week. And, this could be, for a whole Faerūnian also has a 10 day week), so in 30 days would earn 30 doing repair work, this weekly income disapears if the smith decides to craft a sword it is presented as an either or not both. In making swords a quick calculation would indicate two swords can be made each week, by taking 10 with a DC of 15 (Oh it should be noted the higher the DC without failure, the more money/items one can make) it pays more to make swords then to repair items in cases of skilled smiths.
(But, if there is one single swordsmith, such as Gharri, longswords could cost 15 gp. But then, what is the point of importing weapons if there is a local swordsmith. Maybe, the local swordsmith makes too few weapons to meet the demand. He charges 15 gp for each sword, but not everybody gets a sword. He could also charge more, why not? Those that can pay, get what they whant, while the others not. The sole swordsmith could charge x2, x3, and so on. Then, southern merchants come with fresh weapons to sell, but for 30 or more gp. There is competition, or maybe not. An empty space could be filled.)
This is what lends to building a trade model, the problems is how to reconcil the core rules in such away that generally NPCs actually make a living by trading? It would be far less expensive to transport a smith and sell him then to transport swords. Building regional economies for even a small area is hard within the core rule pricing system. Major trade routes Zent Keep to Waterdeep the transport will be higher in many cases then the item itself.
I do wish I could offer a simple model to explain trade and how NPCs actually earn enough to buy what they need without having an impact on supply and demand. Even Harm World that at least plays a little bit with economoics does poorly on how the serfs survive while producing food for the armies.
|
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
3catcircus
Acolyte
32 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 02:32:55
|
I *HIGHLY* recommend spending a few dollars and purchasing "A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe." (MMS) I recently bought the thing because I am also coming up with a system of figuring out what items would fetch the most profit and where to buy/sell them.
Basically, I'm working on figuring out what items each region/nation imports exports (text of FRCS), and then also figuring out commodity items (Trade Routes chart in FRCS). That, coupled with the mechanics in MMS should give you a good idea of how to estimate costs and profits. It will also allow you (or your DM, if you aren't the DM) to figure out how much he'll get to tax you... |
|
|
|
webmanus
Learned Scribe
Sweden
338 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 22:45:07
|
Hi folks,
I have not forgotten this post ... I just have not had time to work on this ... No I am back ...
Did find in the DMG 3.0, page 151, the gate toll of 1 cp. And, in "Book Two: Land of Intrigue Amn", page 15, did find a fee of 2 danters (gp) per caravan wagon (empty or full) leaving Athkatla or Murann; 1 danter in other Amnian cities.
I will check other books ...
Thanks 3catcircus. I have still not bought "Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe" ... Have you succeded with "figuring out what items each region/nation ..."? |
Link to my homepage: http://user.tninet.se/~bsu242v/ |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Trade Route Suzail - Dagger Falls (Goods)
