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Nynshari
Acolyte
17 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 19:25:51
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There was a debate on the WotC forums about whether or not all drow contained demon blood, based on something that was mentioned in the Evermeet novel. My question is: do no drow have demonic blood (of the type that was indicated in the novel, not including drow-demon couplings), do all drow have demonic blood, or is it only some drow (particular family lines)?
Thanks
Nynshari
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Nynshari
Chaos is Life
Chaos is Creativity
Chaos is the Essence of Our Souls |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 02:55:20
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| Could you perhaps point out what you are referring to in Evermeet the novel? I don't remember the drow race having demonic blood, and the only ones that I know do are the draegloths. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 03:25:00
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Err, the Drow (formerly dark elves) were some how transformed by magic. Lolth of course was turned into a demon (not that that prevented her from becoming a goddess again), however there has been no indication that the Drow were given Demon blood in any source mateerial that I know off.
It also has been unknown all the aspects of how the dark elves were transformed. What is known is sun light causes them distress, that if not killed die of old age sooner then the most of the surface elfs, that magics used against them do not always work, that they are more fertile then surface kin.
How much of this is a result of the Elven gods causing the Desent and how much of the radiation they encountered is unknown,
Loth, may the light take and consume her, certainly uses demons as servents and it is claimed that she turns some Drow into them as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 04:10:43
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Alot of beings and creatures that are subterreanan (sp) in nature tend to be distressed in light, especially bright light.
So one could see the light-blindness of the Dark Elves as tne end result of many millenia of living in the Underdark.
Since to the best of my knowledge, there was never any indication in Evermeet, that the ancient Dark Elves had problems with the light. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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LordEverhate
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 04:25:34
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| The true and fair recorders of history (or just the winners) record that the Elven gods drove the dark elves from the surface in a two month period. The losers also record a simalar event (though of evil magic wroght on them). Thus it follows that sun light some how repell the dark elves, perhaps it was near fatal at the start. Light blindness almost certainly is one aspect of process of all the good and evil dark elves being transfromed into the Drow. As for the other aspects of what is known as Drow it appears unlikely that fertility, imunity to many spell effects certainly could not be a result of being transformed. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 04:25:48
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| So not all drow have demons blood but some do? Is that the final analysis? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 04:29:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
So not all drow have demons blood but some do? Is that the final analysis?
Not in my view. Some Drow certainly have had Demon blood children that might be consider Drow (but so have Gold elves), some Drow certainly have been turned into Demons as was Lolth (that is considered Drow even for being a goddess). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 04:50:37
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| Would a drow with demon blood have demon qualities then? Or primarily simply drow features? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 05:07:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
Would a drow with demon blood have demon qualities then? Or primarily simply drow features?
It would appear from what souces I have read that a Demon/Drow would have the advantages of both bloodlines. The advantages of both in most cases, though might be some special disabilities if true nature of blood was known. Banishment if knowing true name, at risk of being summuned, holy water and such things like that.
Of course a Master of the Realm or a Great Reader might hold a different opinion then I do. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 05:34:55
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I don't know of anything to indicate that the average drow has any demonic blood.
Now, as for a hypothetical drow that did have demon blood... Assuming it was from a parent from the lower planes, then I'd either treat them as something resembling a drow version of a tiefling or a drow version of a fey'ri. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 05:43:20
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| Aye the drow tiefling idea may be feasable |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 06:43:44
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quote:
Originally posted by LordEverhate
No, I don't believe all drow have demonic blood...if they did, they'd be cambions and not drow. :)
Cambions are the result of a male tanar'ri breeding with a human female.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2005 : 12:26:49
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Could you perhaps point out what you are referring to in Evermeet the novel?
Yes, along with DDH, I'd like a page reference. If one isn't possible, a link to the aforementioned debate would be ideal. |
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Nynshari
Acolyte
17 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 15:13:16
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Here is a link to the thread on the WotC board. I personally didn't think the Evermeet reference referred to all Drow, but I just wanted to ask.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=424055
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Nynshari
Chaos is Life
Chaos is Creativity
Chaos is the Essence of Our Souls |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 15:46:49
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This is the first refferenced claim in that thread'
"ALL MODERN DROW HAVE DEMONIC BLOOD!
Yes, it's true.
The modern Drow are those of Ilythiir, who were banished below the surface. Now, if you read Elaine's work carefully, you see that those Drow were indeed the spawn of Lolth (who was not a goddess at the time, but a full-blown Tanar'rir!), and a dark elf wizard named Ka'Narlist."
This sounds more like a myth and also appears to be countered by campaign source material. Not everything in a Novel is canon, setting aside that debate.
We know that thousands or millions of Dark elves were transformed into drow during the period of the Crown Wars. Drow might be more fertile then other elves however even Lolth could not give birth to some many in one day. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 15:48:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Nynshari
Here is a link to the thread on the WotC board. I personally didn't think the Evermeet reference referred to all Drow, but I just wanted to ask.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=424055
For those not wishing to read the whole thread or who are banned from the WOTC site and thus unable to read it, here's the post concerning this thread's topic:
quote:
I haven't posted here in forever, and may not post again for a very long time (or at all), but considering how much I love Drow/Elf debates (and I'm avoiding studying for my Physics Final tomorrow), I'd like to throw this in.
Having just read (and loved!) Evermeet (the novel), by Elaine Cunningham, this week, I come bearing some very interesting news to the argument:
ALL MODERN DROW HAVE DEMONIC BLOOD!
Yes, it's true.
The modern Drow are those of Ilythiir, who were banished below the surface. Now, if you read Elaine's work carefully, you see that those Drow were indeed the spawn of Lolth (who was not a goddess at the time, but a full-blown Tanar'rir!), and a dark elf wizard named Ka'Narlist.
So, ALL drow, no matter their alignment, have some demonic blood in them, even if it's so slight that they can't be considered tieflings.
That, for me, seals the idea as to whether or not Drow could ever use High Magic. The answer is: No.
Unless they had very special, specific information/aid from Corellon himself.
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 16:42:53
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| So is that quote correct? |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 17:08:05
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Well finished reading the threa a short time ago (if on going might have been addition(s) ) and the whole argument for Demon blood reasts on one line in a novel ("Evermeet; Island of Elves
Elaine Cunningham
page 175
The descendants of Ka'Narlist and Lolth were now called the drow, and they were as evil and fearsome a people Lolth could have desired. "). More recent source material does not mention the affair, still has Corellon causing the Desent changing the dark elves into what are now called Drow because of the change. I have never seen a descpriotion of what changes were actually done. Clearly light blindness I believe perhaps a few others.
One thing I am sure of is Corellon did not intent to make Drow more powerful then the surface elves.
In the past underdark radition has been considered one reason for the changes. Others atributed to the compeditive nature of living in the underdark the strongest, smartest, cruelist, etc. survived long enough to engender children whom in turn had a better chance to engender children.
As Drow were made by a single act of magic, there is no way Lolth could have Drow children as a result of mating with a dark elf. Even if Lolth having Demon blood (of which the debate in part centers about after Corellon though her down) there is no indication that demon blood was past on to her children (In fact there is not record that I am aware of of her having children in any source book).
All in All Drow do not have Demon blood atributes even if Lolth did try to add this to the bloodline. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 17:11:14
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| No. Drow were around when Lolth was still Araushnee -- before she became a demon. Therefore, her becoming a demon did not affect drow physiology. Whatever changes did occur to their physiologies, making them able to survive in the Underdark, came after the race had been around for a while, and are independent of Lolth's physical state. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 17:13:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
So is that quote correct?
I would need to see the quote in further context on its face it conflicts with earlier and later source book material.
As I said before this sounds like a myth, a story told on Evermeet to justify calling all Drow evil. Without seeing more context it is hard to comment further on the quote provided. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 17:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
As I said before this sounds like a myth, a story told on Evermeet to justify calling all Drow evil.
That's the best way to use view such tales...as one version/tale/myth/legend of drow. I'm sure the drow have their own "interesting" take on their surface cousins. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2005 : 18:10:52
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
As I said before this sounds like a myth, a story told on Evermeet to justify calling all Drow evil.
That's the best way to use view such tales...as one version/tale/myth/legend of drow. I'm sure the drow have their own "interesting" take on their surface cousins.
I have not seen much Drow history in print holdever I am sure the Gold are blamed for starting the Crown Wars and certainly would be clearly blamed for the Dark Disaster (canon, still has not comfirmed the actual souce of this event, just states it is believed Aryvandaar was responsible for that fell magic which was ruled by the Gold).
I do recalling reading once (I believe was canon) that of the Drow the followers of the Dark Maiden are the only Drow maintain a true history. Of course not knowing the true history this might be hard to do in game play and even writting canon. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Drow with demon blood?
