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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 06:10:12
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I'm going to bring this up over here as well.
What do you all think? Would paladins be allowed to have slaves? Based on the 1e box set, one of the "codes" of a paladin is liberty. To me, a paladin having slaves removes liberty from the slaves. Nor can I see someone that is LG having slaves. Most paladins, and yes there are exceptions to who paladins worship, worship the triad and Helm and I can't see those four deities allowing thier paladins to have slaves.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 06:12:49
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| Paladins should not have slaves at all. In fact, I think most paladins actually try to free slaves when the opportunity arises. Even if they cannot do it by force, they may try to purchase the slave from the owner and then free the slave. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 06:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Paladins should not have slaves at all. In fact, I think most paladins actually try to free slaves when the opportunity arises. Even if they cannot do it by force, they may try to purchase the slave from the owner and then free the slave.
This is what I said but there's a few posters who are arguing that paladins should be allowed to have slaves. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 06:18:53
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If paladins are allowed to act like slave runners or slave traders, that certainly would be against their ideals and the teachings of their gods, worse still, they might lose the favor of their patron deities. Unless...they are paladins of Bane himself, then perhaps that may be an answer.
By the way,Kuje, would you mind telling the address of the posters that claimed that paladins should have slaves? |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 06:41:03
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Well I consider it unlikely that game set rules would allow a Paladin to own a slave, however there certainly is posible of a sevitude postion a follower is expected to take.
A knight having a squire at beck and call is certainly something some Paladins would have, even if just help put on the shiney plate armor (and guess who keeps it shiney).
One should also remember that there were different kinds of slavery, some cerainly could be more aceptible then others.
Roman slaves had civil rights, just not as many as Roman citizens.
Indenture servents had a 7 year contract of service (while OK sometimes the owner of contact managed to extend the debt) and had rights with the promise of a free new life.
Then of course is the slavery system of no rights at all. That not only the slave could own nothing, but that even the children of them did no have rights and belonged to the master instead of the parents.
The D&D slaves tend to be of the last, however a broader deffinition of what is slavery and what is servitude could result in a slave/master relationship. Joining a milatary force in some ways is a form of slavery the giving up of certain rights to a master. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 06:44:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
If paladins are allowed to act like slave runners or slave traders, that certainly would be against their ideals and the teachings of their gods, worse still, they might lose the favor of their patron deities. Unless...they are paladins of Bane himself, then perhaps that may be an answer.
By the way,Kuje, would you mind telling the address of the posters that claimed that paladins should have slaves?
It's on the WOTC FR boards called, Paladins and Slaves: Good or Evil? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 06:52:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
If paladins are allowed to act like slave runners or slave traders, that certainly would be against their ideals and the teachings of their gods, worse still, they might lose the favor of their patron deities. Unless...they are paladins of Bane himself, then perhaps that may be an answer.
By the way,Kuje, would you mind telling the address of the posters that claimed that paladins should have slaves?
It's on the WOTC FR boards called, Paladins and Slaves: Good or Evil?
I see..., thanks, Kuje. I will take a look at it, then perhaps make another comment once I finished analyzing it. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 06:55:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
What do you all think? Would paladins be allowed to have slaves? Based on the 1e box set, one of the "codes" of a paladin is liberty. To me, a paladin having slaves removes liberty from the slaves. Nor can I see someone that is LG having slaves. Most paladins, and yes there are exceptions to who paladins worship, worship the triad and Helm and I can't see those four deities allowing thier paladins to have slaves.
I'd have to agree.
Looking at the roles the deities that most paladins worship are said to champion -- these deities being Tyr, Helm, and Torm -- the very concept of a paladin restricting a person's freedom would seem to work against what these deities hold to be part of their portfolios. In addition in undermines what the paladin, as a divine servant of one of these particular deities, also "should" hold to be truth.
Simply put, slavery is about limiting the free will of another sentient being. The three divine aspects of Justice, Protection, and Loyalty, which are exemplified by the three deities I mentioned earlier simply destroy any attempt for one to provide a solid basis for a convincing argument about allowing paladins to have slaves. It compromises the very notion of a paladin as being a "champion of morality and responsibility".
A paladin of Helm is tasked with "protecting" individuals... not enslaving them. And there is little actual "justice" for either a Tyrian paladin keeping a slave in holding or the slave him- or herself. As for loyalty... well, a Tormite paladin can hardly be said to be "loyal" when he's keeping a slave at the same time. This demonstrates that he can't even remain loyal to either his personal code of conduct or to his vow to Torm.
There's just no way it can be supported logically without undermining the principles of the Paladin's Virtues.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 17 Jul 2005 07:04:08 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:02:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Looking at the roles the deities that most paladins worship are said to champion -- Tyr, Helm, and Torm -- the very concept of restricting a person's freedom would seem to work against what these deities hold to be part of their portfolios.
Well other deities do have Paladins and even these three might expect duty (which is a kind of slavery). *wink*
It still depends a lot on what is considered a slave in FR and D&D. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:06:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Looking at the roles the deities that most paladins worship are said to champion -- Tyr, Helm, and Torm -- the very concept of restricting a person's freedom would seem to work against what these deities hold to be part of their portfolios.
Well other deities do have Paladins and even these three might expect duty (which is a kind of slavery). *wink*
It still depends a lot on what is considered a slave in FR and D&D.
If slavery was so widespread and pure, shall we say, then the FRCS wouldn't have said it was looked down upon and even a abomination in the Heartlands. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:08:05
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Id say you youve got the wrong question
The real question should be "Are there any deities that support Paladins that would allow a paladin to have a "slave"
To which I would say the answer is yes
For one Paladins from the Mulhorondi panthon where slavery is legal would be allowed to keep slaves.
Also could it not be argued that casting Geas or Quest spell on someone is a form of Slavery |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:12:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well other deities do have Paladins and even these three might expect duty (which is a kind of slavery). *wink*
But duty to one's deity is a personal choice (whether they become paladins or not), in most cases. A mortal is choosing either to fight for or support a cause he believes in. And in doing so, the mortal answers a call from a divine Power who champions the same cause -- entering into a "divine compact".
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Also could it not be argued that casting Geas or Quest spell on someone is a form of Slavery
3.5 Paladins can not cast Geas or Quest, nor appear to have any charm or compulsion spell avialble on the core list. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:14:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Also could it not be argued that casting Geas or Quest spell on someone is a form of Slavery
3.5 Paladins can not cast Geas or Quest, nor appear to have any charm or compulsion spell avialble on the core list.
No but Lawful good clerics of the deity can |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:15:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Id say you youve got the wrong question
The real question should be "Are there any deities that support Paladins that would allow a paladin to have a "slave"
To which I would say the answer is yes
For one Paladins from the Mulhorondi panthon where slavery is legal would be allowed to keep slaves.
Also could it not be argued that casting Geas or Quest spell on someone is a form of Slavery
It wasn't my question. I was just bringing it over here from the other boards. :)
Mostly it was about Faerun, not Mulhorandi. The deities of Faerun, that have paladins, and the virtues of paladins, make it mostly clear that slavery is not a good ideas for paladins to have.
As I said above, if slavery was so good and proper then it wouldn't be looked down upon by most of the nations of the Heartlands. You don't call something that is good and proper a abomination or distasteful. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 17 Jul 2005 07:18:26 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:17:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Also could it not be argued that casting Geas or Quest spell on someone is a form of Slavery
3.5 Paladins can not cast Geas or Quest, nor appear to have any charm or compulsion spell avialble on the core list.
No but Lawful good clerics of the deity can
Yes but there are more LG clerics then paladins, and paladins are not the same as clerics. Clerics have different ethos then a paladin does even if they worship the same deity. And even so, a LG cleric wouldn't go around using those spells to enslave someone. Thier deity wouldn't grant that to them. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 17 Jul 2005 07:17:57 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:20:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well other deities do have Paladins and even these three might expect duty (which is a kind of slavery). *wink*
But duty to one's deity is a personal choice (whether they become paladins or not), in most cases. A mortal is choosing either to fight for or support a cause he believes in. And in doing so, the mortal answers a call from a divine Power who champions the same cause -- entering into a "divine compact".
I was thinking more of duty from others, such as a squire or the people, that the Paladin serves and expects service from.
Clearly a Paladin, to stay a Paladin, enslaves self to a code of conduct. This code in most cases (if not all) prohibit the only of a person as if an animal. The lessor expectations of duties certainly could be a type of slavery. Which is why the deffinition of which conditions in the realms is considered slavery as oposed to just paying off a duty for the rest of ones life. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:20:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Looking at the roles the deities that most paladins worship are said to champion -- Tyr, Helm, and Torm -- the very concept of restricting a person's freedom would seem to work against what these deities hold to be part of their portfolios.
Well other deities do have Paladins and even these three might expect duty (which is a kind of slavery). *wink*
It still depends a lot on what is considered a slave in FR and D&D.
If slavery was so widespread and pure, shall we say, then the FRCS wouldn't have said it was looked down upon and even a abomination in the Heartlands.
Indeed.
The very idea that such a large population base already considers slavery as something inappropriate tells us that this has remained a cultural conception for many years... perhaps even centuries in some of the older regions.
For example, we know that the church of Auppenser opposed slavery, an attitude which frequently brought it into conflict with many slave-owning nations eg. Calimshan.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:20:13
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also for the purposes of this discussion define "Slavery"
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
also for the purposes of this discussion define "Slavery"
Slavery as described on page 87 of the FRCS, as in the owning of people as property. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 17 Jul 2005 07:26:51 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:24:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I was thinking more of duty from others, such as a squire or the people, that the Paladin serves and expects service from.
Clearly a Paladin, to stay a Paladin, enslaves self to a code of conduct. This code in most cases (if not all) prohibit the only of a person as if an animal. The lessor expectations of duties certainly could be a type of slavery. Which is why the deffinition of which conditions in the realms is considered slavery as oposed to just paying off a duty for the rest of ones life.
This wasn't the arguement though. The arguement is purely: Are paladins allowed to have the slaves that are described on page 87 of the FRCS, meaning slaves are property. Squires are not the same as those slaves. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 17 Jul 2005 07:27:24 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:26:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed.
The very idea that such a large population base already considers slavery as something inappropriate tells us that this has remained a cultural conception for many years... perhaps even centuries in some of the older regions.
For example, we know that the church of Auppenser opposed slavery, an attitude which frequently brought it into conflict with many slave-owning nations eg. Calimshan.
Exactly. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:28:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well other deities do have Paladins and even these three might expect duty (which is a kind of slavery). *wink*
But duty to one's deity is a personal choice (whether they become paladins or not), in most cases. A mortal is choosing either to fight for or support a cause he believes in. And in doing so, the mortal answers a call from a divine Power who champions the same cause -- entering into a "divine compact".
I was thinking more of duty from others, such as a squire or the people, that the Paladin serves and expects service from.
Clearly a Paladin, to stay a Paladin, enslaves self to a code of conduct. This code in most cases (if not all) prohibit the only of a person as if an animal. The lessor expectations of duties certainly could be a type of slavery. Which is why the deffinition of which conditions in the realms is considered slavery as oposed to just paying off a duty for the rest of ones life.
I don't see it as that.
How can a mortal be said to be "enslaving" himself to an ideal or principle that a deity exemplifies, when that mortal already believes in some basic conception of that ideal or principle to begin with. His devotion to a Power is merely an expansion of that basic belief... a way to further channel what he already feels in his heart.
That's hardly slavery to one's code. A paladin chooses to remain loyal to his committment to a Power because on some personal and intimate level, he strongly believes in the principles he is upholding. That is why fallen paladins are... "fallen"... because they've stopped believing in the principles they hold dear and can no longer actively support their pact with a deity.
Adherence to the Paladin's Virtues is a personal choice... it is not forced upon you. Becoming a paladin is about building on what you already know in your heart and soul.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:35:29
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Id say no to Brutal (Read inflicting evil acts on a slave)slavery
Zhentil Keep and Thay for example would practice the sort of slavery similar to what hapaned to slaves in the south of the US pre civil war ie some one goes to the slaves village and enslvaes the population they then shippedd else where and sold to owner who makes them perform labour and the owner has the write to abuse the slave any time they want.
Id imagine LG (and indeed the Mulhorndi aceptable slavery would be more similar to slavery practiced by the Romans which in some forms was closer to indentured servitude |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 07:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Adherence to the Paladin's Virtues is a personal choice... it is not forced upon you. Becoming a paladin is about building on what you already know in your heart and soul.
As was not talking about the Paladin, but rather the people the Paladin serves and expects duty from.
"I saves you life and family, give all praise to Helm for it was by his grace I was able to do this for you."
However it appears one is using the bases definition of what consitutes slavery "meaning slaves are property" which negates all sort of duties that Paladins might see themself entitled to for thier good works.
I do agree one needs to look at each deity that has Paladins as if a slave in effect can be owned, rather then look at just the big three. The keeping/owning of a slave in some locations/circumstanses might even be for the greater good. It can provide a protection that would not be afforded to a freeman. I grant such cases would tend to be rare, however certainly posible. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 10:55:17
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I would imagine, however, that even a paladin of Horus-Re is going to have a problem with slavery, but that because it is part of his society, the main way that he would "fight" slavery would be to make sure they are treated well and not own them himself.
And depending on what you think of the source, according to the Book of Exalted Deeds, there are certain things, that even if they are considered okay by your society, still count as evil, and that "good" in D&D is based on our modern perception of good . . . meaning slavery is evil, and thus not something a paladin can engage in. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 13:21:06
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Hypothetical scenario where a Paladin of Tyr uses "slavery"
One night a bar fight breaks in the local tavern during the drunken brawl the town drunk pulls out a meat cleaver and severes the town blacks smiths arm at the elbow.
The following day a trial is held and a Paladin of Tyr who is in town is given the job of running the trial.
The Paladin finds the drunk guilty
The Drunk is unable to pay the money required for regeneration spell so theres no way to repair the damage to the Black Smiths arm
The Paladin gives the drunk 2 options
1) The Drunk can have his own arm amputated (an eye for an eye)
2) The drunk will have to serve the Black Smith and do all the work the black smith is now unable to do. The drunk will have to do this until he has worked off the cost of having regeneration spell cast on the black smith
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 15:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
This is what I said but there's a few posters who are arguing that paladins should be allowed to have slaves. :)
What exactly is their rational for why paladins would want slaves? Or is this another group of posters who just wish to argue for the sake of an argument? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 16:16:15
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Well it is clear that Paladins do purchase slaves to buy their freedom.
The problem can occur if the culture is such that the slave does not want freedom. Such a situation though might be more akin to the person keeping themselves enslaved and saying they are owned by the Paladin. The Paladin might be in a position of allowing such a condition to be protraied because of the culture.
Example: All females are in effect owned. Until married or sold their father owns all the property rights and decides whom the female can marry or is sold to. After marriage of course the husband owns her. If husband dies control reverts to father (if still living), son (if she has any) or the goverment that then sells to public as a slave.
Any female of that culture that does not have a master of one kind or another is also captured and then sold. Visting females might also be at risk depending on how much respect there exists for a different culture. In this hypothetical case the Paladin would more likely own slaves until such point in time can get the female out of the nation and change her world view enough that she does not believe she has to be owned by a male.
In most campain worlds I do not see any justification for a Paladin to purchase and own a slave for the purposed of keeping armor shiney, to cook, fetch do other mundance tasks that a Paladin just not want to be bothered with.
Oh Dargoth that example you provide of having the twon druck work to pay for the cost of repairing damage would not be one of a Paladin owning his own slave. It is rather a condition of enforcing seritude on one in service to another.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 17:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
This is what I said but there's a few posters who are arguing that paladins should be allowed to have slaves. :)
What exactly is their rational for why paladins would want slaves? Or is this another group of posters who just wish to argue for the sake of an argument?
There isn't one that I can see. They just want to continue to argue that paladins should be allowed to own slaves. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 17:25:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
This is what I said but there's a few posters who are arguing that paladins should be allowed to have slaves. :)
What exactly is their rational for why paladins would want slaves? Or is this another group of posters who just wish to argue for the sake of an argument?
There isn't one that I can see. They just want to continue to argue that paladins should be allowed to own slaves.
Very true.
In fact, the last few replies to that particular thread seem to be more about twisting Kuje's thoughts on the issue and completely misconstruing the entire argument...  .
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Paladins and Slaves
