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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 17:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Hypothetical scenario where a Paladin of Tyr uses "slavery"
One night a bar fight breaks in the local tavern during the drunken brawl the town drunk pulls out a meat cleaver and severes the town blacks smiths arm at the elbow.
The following day a trial is held and a Paladin of Tyr who is in town is given the job of running the trial.
The Paladin finds the drunk guilty
The Drunk is unable to pay the money required for regeneration spell so theres no way to repair the damage to the Black Smiths arm
The Paladin gives the drunk 2 options
1) The Drunk can have his own arm amputated (an eye for an eye)
2) The drunk will have to serve the Black Smith and do all the work the black smith is now unable to do. The drunk will have to do this until he has worked off the cost of having regeneration spell cast on the black smith
That second option is indentured servitude, not slavery. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 23:38:21
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Wooly, then there's also the fact that the drunk is not serving the paladin.
Dargoth, even if you could call your second example one of slavery, the drunk is only a "slave" to the blacksmith, not the paladin, who merely handed out the sentence. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2005 : 23:57:07
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Wooly, then there's also the fact that the drunk is not serving the paladin.
Dargoth, even if you could call your second example one of slavery, the drunk is only a "slave" to the blacksmith, not the paladin, who merely handed out the sentence.
but it does show that slavery can be used by someone with a Lawful Good alignment even a Paladin |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 00:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Wooly, then there's also the fact that the drunk is not serving the paladin.
Dargoth, even if you could call your second example one of slavery, the drunk is only a "slave" to the blacksmith, not the paladin, who merely handed out the sentence.
I thought I said that already.
IAE the main question comes down to if owning a slave is always evil, which is the code of conduct in brief. The 3.5 SRD indicates some actions are evil by naming them and adds the etc. for other evils not listed. Slavery certainly can be considered evil and could be on the list of things not to do. Going back to a 1st Edition code of conduct has some merit, but of limited value (also such Code of Conduct is not in a core book) that can be considered as to what is now considered an evil act.
In part this becomes a discussion about posible unwritten changes inferred from stated changes. The alignment descriptions have been rewritten as to what LG is, with some changes from first and second Edition descriptions. I do understand some perfer to go back to older print if there is not any direct statement in newer products indicating a change. That there are others that only discovered AD&D 3.x and do not want to seek out the sometimes hard to find products to fill in what was intended for a different type of game.
3.x was not just removing bugs , it was a redesign that in many ways made it a new game though relaying on history of the past games. I do recall the one assertion that 3.x was D&D and should not be consided the 3rd Edition AD&D because they managed to merge BD&D with 2nd AD&D (that the split was healed). If this is so one should also look at BD&D code of conduct and alignment system. In truth I see little of BD&D in 3.x, but if one acepts the claim of the merge it is another place to look.
In BD&D it was harder to become a Paladin, one had to reach name level, and they could have a Domain (filled with serfs tired to the land and in effect owned by the domain holder). Short of a specific FR code of conduct that does not apear to be in dispute, one does have to look to the core. There has been this statement made "If slavery was so widespread and pure, shall we say, then the FRCS wouldn't have said it was looked down upon and even a abomination in the Heartlands." which does appear to lean toward evil for those lands. However it is clear that slaves exist all over the realms in one way or another. Even in Waterdeep where a Paladin purchased a servering girl of a bar (one of the spin a yarns IIRC written by Ed). This something that the watch should have found about quickly and could have rescured as well. A law on the book does not make it a law enforced.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 01:03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
In BD&D it was harder to become a Paladin, one had to reach name level, and they could have a Domain (filled with serfs tired to the land and in effect owned by the domain holder). Short of a specific FR code of conduct that does not apear to be in dispute, one does have to look to the core. There has been this statement made "If slavery was so widespread and pure, shall we say, then the FRCS wouldn't have said it was looked down upon and even a abomination in the Heartlands." which does appear to lean toward evil for those lands. However it is clear that slaves exist all over the realms in one way or another. Even in Waterdeep where a Paladin purchased a servering girl of a bar (one of the spin a yarns IIRC written by Ed). This something that the watch should have found about quickly and could have rescured as well. A law on the book does not make it a law enforced.
Slavery doesn't exist in Waterdeep except as a underground thing. Bringing slaves to Waterdeep makes them free and if they don't wish to leave or return, then they don't have to. Purchasing a serving girl in Waterdeep is not the same as purchasing a slave.
Plus, mechanics do not change the lore of the setting and there is nothing that says the Liberty for the paladin code, that paladins try to follow, is no longer used. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Jul 2005 01:09:00 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 01:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Wooly, then there's also the fact that the drunk is not serving the paladin.
Dargoth, even if you could call your second example one of slavery, the drunk is only a "slave" to the blacksmith, not the paladin, who merely handed out the sentence.
but it does show that slavery can be used by someone with a Lawful Good alignment even a Paladin
But that's still not slavery. It's no different than the hard labour punishment we have today. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 02:15:22
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Ed has made it clear to me, that the Faerun deities would not allow thier paladins to keep slaves.
So, I'm done with this discussion. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 02:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Purchasing a serving girl in Waterdeep is not the same as purchasing a slave.
*blink* The tarven owner claimed to own the girl. The girl was in public view. Somehow this was not a slave? Perhaps you have a better definition of what slavery is in Waterdeep then just only a person?
quote:
Plus, mechanics do not change the lore of the setting and there is nothing that says the Liberty for the paladin code, that paladins try to follow, is no longer used.
Yup I knew you would used that. You have not seen any new Paladin code, however have seen Paladins in Mulhorond that appear not to have fallen owning slaves. The lore of the setting is changing, the time line has changed, the 10th level spell (which can not be cast) is now an Epic level spell (that can be cast).
You relie on two points "slavery an abomination" amd the "1st Edition Code"
The first clearly could be related to blantant slavery or being turn into a slave of which most will detest. As it clearly exist that bond-people can be purchased and sold in Waterdeep and the Watch does nothing about it, clearly indicates (1. They are not doing their job or 2. Some types of slavery is legal) types of indentures are allowed to exist.
The second the splat book Code of Paladins written under 1s Edition. While Ed of Greenwood did write one or a few items for TSR under 1.5 FR came into fu;; bloom under 2nd Edition (not withstanding that FR was first concieved 1967, per D&D) and for the most part was crafted to 2nd rules not first.
"A paladin may not possess more than 10 magical items. Furthermore, these may not exceed one suit of armor, one shield, four weapons (arrows and bolts are not counted), and four other magical items.
A paladin never retains wealth. He may keep only enough treasure to support himself in a modest manner, pay his henchmen, men-at-arms, and servitors a reasonable rate, and to construct or maintain a small castle or keep (funds can be set aside for this purpose). All excess must be donated to the church or another worthy cause. This money can never be given to another player character or NPC controlled by a player.
A paladin must tithe to whatever charitable, religious institution of lawful good alignment he serves. A tithe is 10% of the paladin's income, whether coins, jewels, magical items, wages, rewards, or taxes. It must be paid immediately.
A paladin does not attract a body of followers upon reaching 9th level or building a castle. However, he can still hire soldiers and specialists, although these men must be lawful good in comportment.
A paladin may employ only lawful good henchmen (or those who act in such a manner when alignment is unknown). A paladin will cooperate with characters of other alignments only as long as they behave themselves. He will try to show them the proper way to live through both word and deed. The paladin realizes that most people simply cannot maintain his high standards. Even thieves can be tolerated, provided they are not evil and are sincerely trying to reform. He will not abide the company of those who commit evil or unrighteous acts. Stealth in the cause of good is acceptable, though only as a last resort."
"Lawful Good: Characters of this alignment believe that an orderly, strong society with a well-organized government can work to make life better for the majority of the people. To ensure the quality of life, laws must be created and obeyed. When people respect the laws and try to help one another, society as a whole prospers. Therefore, lawful good characters strive for those things that will bring the greatest benefit to the most people and cause the least harm. An honest and hard-working serf, a kindly and wise king, or a stern but forthright minister of justice are all examples of lawful good people."
There is nothing here that prohibts slavery, or slaves held by a Paladin. Also there is no Code of the Paladin in core books that prohibit the owning of slaves or serfs. In some respects the BD&D and AD&D Paladin were different and they were merged in thrid (or at least the official claim is out there that the two versions were merged) so that looking at core books of both BD&D and AD&D appear to be indicated. Both core books are silent as to slavery always being Evil.
There though can be one telling argument for not only slaves, the oath of poverty, though owning a small castle (AD&D version) kept at a reasonable rate implies serfs. BD&D more or less prohibited a Paladin from owning land at all and certainly could not hold a dominian.
Of course the BD&D Paladin could not exisit until charater level 9 as a Fighter (Like I said last time I did not see much of BD&D visable in the 3.0 merger of the game streams, there are a few however).
Back to the Waterdeep transaction. The yarn indicated clearly a slave condition, the Paladin was aging and perhaps did not want to start a general brawl so paid. He clearly could have )perhaps might have though no futher comment was made) went to the watch in the interest of law and demand they get his money back, of course explaining why he purchased the slave in the first place. Alternitively the Paladin before doing the purchase could have sought the watch, however that did leave the coin girl in danger so he did the good thing and purchased a slave (by what ever word you want to call her that is not a slave she clearly was a slave).
As much as a Paladin holding a small castle would be holding serfs as slaves, it clearly is posible that it is permitted in the realms to own slaves no matter what class you are.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 02:39:32
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Kentinal,
You need to read Ed's recent reply then. Faerun deities do not allow thier paladins to have slaves. Plain and simple. End of story.
Now, I'm truely done replying to this thread. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Jul 2005 02:40:30 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 02:44:27
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"Even if slavery, torture, and discrimination are condoned by society, they remain evil."
The Book of Exalted Deeds, pg 11. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 02:51:23
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Wooly, then there's also the fact that the drunk is not serving the paladin.
Dargoth, even if you could call your second example one of slavery, the drunk is only a "slave" to the blacksmith, not the paladin, who merely handed out the sentence.
but it does show that slavery can be used by someone with a Lawful Good alignment even a Paladin
But that's still not slavery. It's no different than the hard labour punishment we have today.
Indeed. In fact, Dargoth's second example could almost be interpreted as a form of "community service". His indentured servitude would be to the church, not the paladin.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 03:30:45
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Kuje: I saw his reply after I typed my last, spent some time seaching the issue of the Paladin in effect buying a slave in Waterdeep, just called by another name. Alas the WotC seach is poor and google while better not getting me close to the article I read. That IIRC was written by Ed.
KnightErrantJR: _The Book of Exalted Deeds_ is an optionoal as oposed to a core rule book.
Of course there is that minor detail that WotC owns FR not Ed.
If I can find that article I will update with link and relevent passage.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 03:31:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[br
That second option is indentured servitude, not slavery.
In Eds response he refers to Indentured "bondage" as being merely slavery by another name |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 03:35:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[br
That second option is indentured servitude, not slavery.
In Eds response he refers to Indentured "bondage" as being merely slavery by another name
Yes, but it seems prevalent only in places of rough repute -- for example, Luskan.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 03:41:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[br
That second option is indentured servitude, not slavery.
In Eds response he refers to Indentured "bondage" as being merely slavery by another name
Yes, but it seems prevalent only in places of rough repute -- for example, Luskan.
Not so the FRC says "Indentured Servitude and serfdom are relative common practices"
Ive also posted a question in Thomas Reids thread whether he or Sean had done a FR "Paladins code" in Champions of Valor |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 18 Jul 2005 03:44:14 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 03:46:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[br
That second option is indentured servitude, not slavery.
In Eds response he refers to Indentured "bondage" as being merely slavery by another name
Yes, but it seems prevalent only in places of rough repute -- for example, Luskan.
Not so the FRC says "Indentured Servitude and serfdom are relative common practices"
Yes, but these methods would likely only be employed in regions with little true governmental control or because of a loosely implemented feudal-styled hierarchy.
You wouldn't see indentured servitude or serfdom operating in a place such as Waterdeep.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 03:48:40
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But the type of indentured servitude in Luskan is the "you dropped my chamber pot, so I am adding on another year to your service," kind of servitude, while what was mentioned above was the specific, set amount of time, value of service type.
Also, serfs can be considered slaves, depending on how the country runs things, but essentially, in the Realms at least it seems, it just means that they don't own their land or their homes, but that doesn't mean they are owned per se, and if they want to wander off, say from Impiltur to the Dalelands, there really isn't a legal reason they can't (which doesn't mean an unscrupulous lord wouldn't find an excuse).
In general, I think slavery should be evil, but in all honesty, it is very difficult to come up with an example that covers every possible situation. Technically Wulfgar was endentured to Bruenor, but Bruenor came to regard him as a son, and definately let him go after a set period of time in his service. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 03:53:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Ive also posted a question in Thomas Reids thread whether he or Sean had done a FR "Paladins code" in Champions of Valor
The Paladin's Virtues in the 2e FR boxed set already provide a reasonable foundation for a "Paladin's Code".
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 04:39:29
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Getting into dicussions with moderators with a different view certainly is a concern, however in general we agree that most Paladins would not own slaves, perhaps buy one from time to time to free them.
What the issue more revolves about if any Faerun deities that have Paladins will fall them, if they ever own a slave. It appears the Ed of Greenwood holds this view (Oh a section of WotC is down or deleted 1.1 500 Server Error for much lore) and I can not find WotC information to ask him about (that he might have wrote) that some kind of indentured servitude existed openly (in a seedier part) of Waterdeep.
There was mention that Waterdeep does not condone even serfdom, which many would view as a type of slavery. Other then a reference to some location where Waterdeep grows food (and odds are that area is not large enough IIRC) which could require severitude, the other supplies of food comes from traders with aparently no questions asked as to if food was grown by freeman, serfs, slaves or looted.
FR like most game worlds do not worry about economics of how food, weapons and such are produced. The stories and campaigns revolve about a small group of people that can find or fight for what they need. They (even the Paladin) does not care if the food was trasported over the seas by enslaved crew. They do not care much about the condition of farmers that certainly can not be allowed to go free to earn better income in the city.
Short of a workable economic model for the realms (or any game settting) enforced sevitude of at least some has to be inferred.
Perhaps thread should end though outstanding issues remain in my mind and at least a few others. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 15:50:34
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I would imagine, however, that even a paladin of Horus-Re is going to have a problem with slavery, but that because it is part of his society, the main way that he would "fight" slavery would be to make sure they are treated well and not own them himself.
And depending on what you think of the source, according to the Book of Exalted Deeds, there are certain things, that even if they are considered okay by your society, still count as evil, and that "good" in D&D is based on our modern perception of good . . . meaning slavery is evil, and thus not something a paladin can engage in.
That is a perfect representation of paladin's response to slavery. People get confused when it comes to ethics and law, they are not interchangeable concepts. Even legalized slavery is immoral, and a paladin would not participate. |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 18:46:08
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Ah, now to answer this question, lets take a little look at our own history in the world of abscent magic (earth).
Today the term slave refers to an individual who is forced to do manual labour for no pay, lest they be punished brutally for believing that they have any rights. This type of slavery goes hand in hand with discrimination, whether racial, financial, political, or whatever. This is a very LE approach to slavery, and ANY Paladin that keeps slaves this way should find himself trading in levels as a Blackguard (or maybe the DM should trade level for him without the player knowing).
However, looking further back in history the term 'SLAVE' has not always been this way. In many ancient societies, such as Athens, a 'slave' recieved pay, was given rights, was respected by the family it served, was treated as a living being, owned a house, supported a family, was not beaten (unless it threatened the lives of others). 'slavery' was an honest profession in some societies.
Western society conducted slavery in a very Lawful Evil way, but there is always the possibility of giving rights to those who work for you. A Paladin in Mulhrond may keep 'slaves' so as to respect the laws of his country, but in the mean time give them proper care, pay them, provide homes for them, protect them, give them rights, help them when they are in need, teach them, and otherwise treat them as any good father might treat his son. This would be the Lawful Good approach to slavery.
It's like the Nuremberg trials. Many Nazi generals used the arguement that their location made it impossible for them to do the right thing. However, the paladin way is that it is NEVER impossible to do the right thing, even if the law goes against it. A Paladin must find a way to do the right thing while not violating the law (what he choses to do with his slaves is his decision). And I mean come on, I've played paladin's in rougher situations than Mulhrond (i.e. Ravenloft) and trust me, the right thing is ALWAYS possible. It's just sometimes very improbable and in some cases, suicidal, but always possible. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
Edited by - Sir Luther Cromwell on 18 Jul 2005 18:49:49 |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 18:51:26
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As I tell my players:
"Even if it is the local law, a Paladin cannot view babies as a good source of protein." |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 18:55:00
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| Melfius, THAT IS GOLDEN. I hope you don't mind if I carry it! |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2005 : 23:16:13
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| Be my guest! |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 03:35:06
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Wow! what a discussion and a chance for my first post!
I actually have to agree with the Mulhorand slavery view. But a few technical points should be made:
1) Ed has said that Faerunian deities don't allow paladins to have slaves, but the Mulhorandi have their own pantheon.
2) Mulhorandi paladins wouldn't actually own the slaves anyway, since they are the property of the temples.
3) A new good Mulhorandi sourcebook might clear up some of this confusion by addressing the issues of good, evil, slaves, paladins, and the Mulhorandi culture. (always hopeful!)
I see no problem with the earlier post with the Mulhorandi view of slaves. That is how I play my Tiefling (non-paladin) who journeys in the Heartlands. Yes, serfs are free, but they are also free to starve. A proper master would take care of them so they could reach their full potential. Of course, this makes me have conflicts with the other party members, but it is part of my characters culture.
The Western Heartlands view of slavery as evil is very valid, as it is based on a more modern view of slavery as evil. It is the same tact taken by the Book of Exalted Deeds, which would apply in a perfect world. The Mulhorandi culture, however, does throw a wrench (more like a wrecking ball) into the perfect world.
Mkhai Wati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 03:41:21
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I guess the only thing that keeps nibbling at the back of my mind in this whole discussion is that the arguement here is that the Mulhorandi are different becuase they expect slaves to be treated well. I guess PART of what makes slavery evil is how a slave is treated, but you are telling a sentient creature that you OWN it, it has no life, no right of its own, even if you treat them very well.
I'm not saying that the Mulhorandi couldn't slip into thinking that their slaves are better off becuase they are taken care of, especially the more the Mulhorandi see of the slaves in Thay and other regions of Faerun, but rationalization doesn't mean that they are right. They can have the best of intentions, but that still doesn't change the idea that they own another sentient creature.
Now keep in mind, that is one aspect of their culture, and while I do think that the act of slavery is evil, a culture is made up of many parts. Depending on your background, you may think that capital punishment is evil, but even if you do, you are not likely to see Cormyr as an evil nation, becuase it is one part of the whole.
But slavery, in and of itself, divorced of a cultural explanation, is evil. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 03:54:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
Wow! what a discussion and a chance for my first post!
Greetings to you Mkhai Wati and welcome to Candlekeep.
Please visit this section of Candlekeep for a more appropriate introduction.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 04:29:21
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quote:
I'm not saying that the Mulhorandi couldn't slip into thinking that their slaves are better off becuase they are taken care of, especially the more the Mulhorandi see of the slaves in Thay and other regions of Faerun, but rationalization doesn't mean that they are right. They can have the best of intentions, but that still doesn't change the idea that they own another sentient creature.
Now keep in mind, that is one aspect of their culture, and while I do think that the act of slavery is evil, a culture is made up of many parts. Depending on your background, you may think that capital punishment is evil, but even if you do, you are not likely to see Cormyr as an evil nation, becuase it is one part of the whole.
I would agree with you on a very personal level. Let us understand that, I view slavery as a strong evil.
*stepping away from FR for a short time*
Back in the early 1990's, their was a large degree of Columbus bashing going on for his part in the destruction of the Indian culture. The editor of Analog science fiction magazine, Dr. Schmidt, if I remember, wrote an editorial about this. He called it ex post facto morals, or something to that effect. You are applying the morals of today as opposed to what was current in previous times. What Columbus did with the Indian question, and it wasn't wholesale slaughter as some would believe, was by that day's morals very noble. He could have instituted death and slavery, but didn't. He didn't take as high a ground as we today would have liked, but he didn't know better. Today, we would still view his acts as evil, even though he would be considered good by his times standards. Consider now, what goes on in this current time. Two hundred or three hundred years from now, how will people view such hot topics that are in our news. The future moral standards may view us as evil for allowing some items as capital punishment, poverty, or abortion to happen, but I would doubt few people defending those actions today would view themselves as evil. On the flip side, the morals could swing the other way, and may wonder why we allowed so many criminals running free, or defending womens rights would be so fought against. We cannot know the future, we can only do as our moral code this day allows us to do.
*stepping back in to FR*
yep, playing a Tiefling can be tough with a different cultural background, but that is why I think a new sourcebook on the Old Empires is in order. I found this topic because I have tried to put the slavery question in context, but have problems with a good society allowing it. I had to take the position as Sir Luther put it quite well. I would like it if the Mulhorand pharoah Horustep III (a paladin of Horus-re, also) would outlaw slavery, but if he doesn't then I can only do what I can do.
Mkhai Wati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 06:26:27
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Hmm... I can't really see using the Mulhorandi paladins as an example for justifying slavery. After all, the Mulhorandi have a different view of slavery compared to the rest of Faerun. In Faerun, slavery is usually something like dragging some poor sod in chains and whip him whenever the master feels like it.
Even if Mulhorandi paladins do keep slaves, they probably do not view them like how the Zhentarim or Red Wizards would view their slaves.
It's kind of like how when Brunenor defeated Wulfgar and made the young barbarian his "slave". The dwarf king did even say that Wulfgar was his slave, but did he ever treated him like one? Bruenor gave Wulfgar freedom, allowing him to work in the forges and eventually even crafting him Aegis-Fang. Not bad for a slave... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 06:41:04
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| What we should try and do is track down the 2ed Old empires author (I believe his name is Scott something)and get his thoughts on the matter Im not sure if he has ever visited candlekeep but I know hes posted a few times over on the WOTC forums |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Paladins and Slaves
