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Never
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 07:51:06
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I read 'Shadows of Doom' today. Right horrible fantasy book that is. First problem, it starts with the Gods falling from their posts and being turned into humans, so one of the God's chosen is stripped of his magical powers. The rest of the book is him running around with a group of fighters, freeing a country from oppressive overloads.
Second, the good guys are all superhuman. The previous Lord has been enslaved for two years. He's freed, and runs around with no clothing and only chains for weapons. He literally manages to fight his way through an army of full-plated, veteran warriors on horseback backed by crossbowmen and gets not a single cut. The rest of the cast is just as ridiculously powerful.
One major nitpick, every 75 pages or so, one of the good guys will reflect sadly that they don't really *like* killing. Yet, not *once* do they show any mercy, compassion, or hesitation. In fact, as soon as they've stated they'd what they're doing is overly bloody, or they don't like killing, they happily go back to throat slashing. One of the Harper's even burns down a building filled with soldiers so horribly injured they can't even walk.
I don't find any excitement or 'fun' in reading about one battle after another, some do. However, even the motivation is thin: the 'heroes' walk through a portal, find black armored soldiers, kill, move on, kill, move on, decide the soldiers are evil, and start a revolution. This country has been under another state's control for two years now, yet none of these people cared enough to lend a helping hand until they were passing through the area.
I picked up the book because I liked another by the author but Shadows of Doom is a huge plunge in quality.
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I'm so, so very guilty for no reason or rhyme;
Infinite victims, infinitesimal time. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 09:12:37
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| I heard that the book was actually called Elminister's Doom before renamed as Shadows of Doom. Still, well, it is a generally nice book to read. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 11:29:13
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As for the gods falling, that's an established bit of Realmslore. They were kicked out of the heavens and forced to assume mortal form by their master, Ao.
I trust you are new to the Realms? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 15:03:03
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| Obviously the book didn't work for you, but most of what you mention is how the Realms is, not this book in particular or its quality. The premise of the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy is an action-filled What's going on here? yarn during the pre-established (and in my opinion regrettable) Time of Troubles when the gods walk Faerűn. Heroes in sword and sorcery can do stuff like that! That's just the kind of heroic world you're in. These Harpers are good-aligned professional killers, and it would be quite wrong if either (a) they killed without remorse or distaste (b) they hummed and haed and were actually made hesitant by their consciences like uncertain adolescents. The Zhents the heroes fight have been personal enemies their whole lives and the organizational enemies of the Harpers for centuries; they've infamous as cruel tyrants and there's nothing arbitrary that they're foes. |
Edited by - Faraer on 19 Jul 2005 15:10:57 |
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Never
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2005 : 22:42:07
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Wooly Ropurt:
" As for the gods falling, that's an established bit of Realmslore. They were kicked out of the heavens and forced to assume mortal form by their master, Ao.
I trust you are new to the Realms?"
Yes, the god's fall but that has nothing to do with the plot of the book.
Let's go back to Making of a Mage. The first part of it is Elminster's father being killed by a wizard and Elminster swearing revenge. The rest of the book is Elminster trying to *get* that revenge.
Now, the beginning of this book is about god's falling and Elminster being told to find some girl. The majority of the book has *nothing* to do with either of these. It's not about trying to figure out what happened to the Gods, restoring balance to the universe, or even seeking out Midnight.
It's like someone wrote four chapters of a story and then stuck twenty chapters of a different story between them.
Faraer:
"... most of what you mention is how the Realms is, not this book in particular or its quality."
Poor narrative structure, improbable abilities, and paper-thin characterization don't reflect on quality? I've read several Realm's novels with none of the above. I will admit that Realm's novels tend to be combat heavy but typically there's enough substance for me to find trudging through that worthwhile.
"The Zhents the heroes fight have been personal enemies their whole lives and the organizational enemies of the Harpers for centuries; they've infamous as cruel tyrants and there's nothing arbitrary that they're foes."
Again, that's part of the problem. We get one line about one of the heroes (Shar) having a personal grudge against Zhents. However, the majority of the time, there's little evidence that the Zhents are horribly cruel tyrants. There's an unprovoked attack at the beginning, we see one unsupervised soldier threaten to rape a woman, and one man complains about taxes. On the other hand, the Zhents also seem far more interested in avoiding violence and seem to care other people. Unlike the 'good-aligned' Harpers, they don't just remark about not liking killing, they actually try to reason with their foes instead of saying, 'Bad person - must kill.'
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I'm so, so very guilty for no reason or rhyme;
Infinite victims, infinitesimal time. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 00:38:49
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The book is not about the fall of the gods at all. It is set during the Time of Troubles, not about them per se. The book is about Elminster, the stripping of his spellcasting ability, and the fact that even sans spells circumstances and his character dictate that he try and do what he can to save one of the Dales he has had a long association with (as he has with practically all of them) from Zhent tyranny. It's about adaptability, 'guts' and using your noggin' when you are moved out of your comfort zone - and succeeds quite well I may add. Oh and I disagree re your implied assertions that no-one of the heroes gets hurt during the novel - that ring of regeneration that El is toting gets a fair work-out and saves both Sharantyr and Ireph Mulmarr (sp?) from death. Of course, and seemingly, YMMV.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Sandhrune
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 01:14:33
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| Well said George. I think that you summed up the novel splendedly. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2005 : 02:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Never
[b]Again, that's part of the problem. We get one line about one of the heroes (Shar) having a personal grudge against Zhents. However, the majority of the time, there's little evidence that the Zhents are horribly cruel tyrants. There's an unprovoked attack at the beginning, we see one unsupervised soldier threaten to rape a woman, and one man complains about taxes. On the other hand, the Zhents also seem far more interested in avoiding violence and seem to care other people. Unlike the 'good-aligned' Harpers, they don't just remark about not liking killing, they actually try to reason with their foes instead of saying, 'Bad person - must kill.'
Well, Zhents being evil is sort of an established fact around the Realms. You only do not realize this because you are new to the Realms, but the Zhentarim has done many bad things. The author assumes that we know the general history of the Zhentarim and does not bother to tell the whole organization's history when he could use those pages to be writing more about his story.
Second, the "good guys" are not superhuman, but they are very very powerful people. You've got Elminster, a Chosen of Mystra, and several members of The Knights of Myth Drannor. These are all experienced warriors and I'm not surprised to hear about them slaughtering Zhentarim grunts.
Another thing is, these people ARE compassionate. But they've been around the Realms for so long and witnessed so much that they know mercy and compassion does not always work, especially with Zhentarim soldiers. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Never
Acolyte
USA
24 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2005 : 22:26:15
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George:
"The book is not about the fall of the gods at all."
I grasped that. You'll notice my first reply is, "Yes, the god's fall but that has nothing to do with the plot of the book," then goes on to explain why this is a problem for me.
"...I disagree re your implied assertions that no-one of the heroes gets hurt during the novel..."
For some reason, the term 'strawman' springs to mind.
DDH:
"Zhents being evil is sort of an established fact around the Realms."
The clerics of Shar are also known to be evil. Yet, in 'The Temptations of...' Ed spends time establishing this by showing them doing rather evil acts. As a reader, I want to feel bad for the people of the High Dale. I want to be able to empathize with their suffering and their desire to be free of tyrants. If the Zhents are evil, then the author needs to *show* it. Otherwise, we've reverted to a bad western where villains are just stick figures in black hats.
The Zhents aren't happy, shiny Disneyesque rulers, true, but I wasn't looking for that. To me, they come off as a realistic, 'medieval' government. [Mildly corrupt, people backstabbing for power, the higher you go up the less they care about the little guy, a few truly evil people, and a fewer truly good]
"You only do not realize this because you are new to the Realms…"
'New to the Realms' is something of a misnomer but I understand what you mean. Compared to books like Spellfire, Making of a Mage, Daughter of the Drow, or the Crimson Talisman, this novel expects more in the way of previous knowledge from the reader.
I can appreciate that and agree. If I had read previous books in which the Zhents pillage, defiled, and murdered, then their name could evoke in me enough emotion to color the details of this novel. Likewise, if I already had an emotional attachment to Shar and the two Harpers (can you tell I'm good at remembering names?) then this book would appeal to me in much the way I appreciate a visit from an old friend.
Neither of these is true, however, and that acerbates my problems with the book.
"…the "good guys" are not superhuman, but they are very very powerful people. You've got Elminster, a Chosen of Mystra, and several members of The Knights of Myth Drannor…"
Actually, the guy who faced the army butt naked was not a knight or El. I brought up that particular scene because it was both so horribly implausible (to me) and something of a last straw when it came to this novel.
I want to say that there's only one Knight and El with two Harpers that Storm has sent. What distinction do you make between superhuman and very, very powerful? I'm guessing this is semantics.
The issue is more one of believability, which I understand is highly subjective, and this book lost it. I'm not asking for 'realism' as this is fantasy. I can watch 'Crouching Tiger…' or 'The Matrix' or read 'Dune' without getting my gusset in a bind about that "Never being able to happen." If the heroes were all wearing Double-Plus-Good-Gauntlets-of-Sword-Dodging,-Hasting,-and Decapitation, if a priest were casting Bless-You and Screw-the-Bad-Guys-Sideways, if the heroes were shown munching down Super Wheaties before a fight, then I could say to myself, "No normal group of warriors could handle this but they did eat those Super Wheaties so it makes sense." |
I'm so, so very guilty for no reason or rhyme;
Infinite victims, infinitesimal time. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 00:59:45
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Okay, I promised myself that I wouldn't do this, but I have a slight problem with posts like Never's original when they make wildly inflammatory comments, thusly:
quote:
Originally posted by Never
I read 'Shadows of Doom' today. Right horrible fantasy book that is. First problem, it starts with the Gods falling from their posts and being turned into humans, so one of the God's chosen is stripped of his magical powers. The rest of the book is him running around with a group of fighters, freeing a country from oppressive overloads.
Well, your first paragrpah has the unconstructive use of "right horrible fantasy book". Sure, that's your opinion, you are entitled to it. Question is, are you looking for an argument when you post inflammatory comments like that or some pats on the back from like-minded 'fans'? The next off base comment follows immediately: "First problem, ..." - why is the fall of the gods a 'problem'? If you are an anti-Time of Troubles FR 'fan' then join the queue with the rest of them. Of course, the years of complaining and pointing out all the problems regarding the Time of Troubles hasn't seen TSR/WotC change it yet. But hang in there, it'll happen ...
Now we get to the dislikes. Never presents one opinion, I'll present an alternative:
quote:
Second, the good guys are all superhuman. The previous Lord has been enslaved for two years. He's freed, and runs around with no clothing and only chains for weapons. He literally manages to fight his way through an army of full-plated, veteran warriors on horseback backed by crossbowmen and gets not a single cut. The rest of the cast is just as ridiculously powerful.
Elminster, Sharantyr, Belkram and Itharr and the local townsfolk (quite a few from the sounds of it) AND Ireph Mulmarr take on a Zhent garrison. Losses are sustained on both sides, Sharantyr and Ireph are near death from wounds but are saved through Elminster's ring of regeneration (which does sterling work on the Old Mage himself also as well as a few others). The Zhents end up losing. If you hadn't noticed, they are the bad guys. They are supposed to lose in heroic fiction. Did you pick up the book expecting the Zhents to win? If so, I can't imagine that you've read many heroic fantasy novels over the years and been impressed, because rarely if ever do the heroes get killed. You probably think that the LotR trilogy could have been improved if the Fellowship had been wiped out in Moria ...
quote:
One major nitpick, every 75 pages or so, one of the good guys will reflect sadly that they don't really *like* killing. Yet, not *once* do they show any mercy, compassion, or hesitation. In fact, as soon as they've stated they'd what they're doing is overly bloody, or they don't like killing, they happily go back to throat slashing. One of the Harper's even burns down a building filled with soldiers so horribly injured they can't even walk.
One would think that you may have stumbled onto a potted (albeit simplistic) description of the difference between good and evil here, don't you think?
quote:
I don't find any excitement or 'fun' in reading about one battle after another, some do. However, even the motivation is thin: the 'heroes' walk through a portal, find black armored soldiers, kill, move on, kill, move on, decide the soldiers are evil, and start a revolution. This country has been under another state's control for two years now, yet none of these people cared enough to lend a helping hand until they were passing through the area.
The Zhents moved in during the time just before the Time of Troubles. They haven't been there for two years. And apparently you think that a common populace should find it easy to overwhelm and eradicate an organised, armed invader. Well, I don't share your viewpoint here. Sometimes simple things like a revolution or revolt need a kickstart in the right direction.
quote:
I picked up the book because I liked another by the author but Shadows of Doom is a huge plunge in quality.
My totally opposite view is that the Shadows of the Avatar remains one of the best series of FR novels and is far superior to many others. Of course, that's my opinion and one you don't share. We'll agree to disagree.
Oh, and the 'strawman' comment - I believe that you are referring to some sort of literary device here. I can't recall the exact definition - ignorant as I am - but I never read the novel thinking that Ireph was arrow-fodder for the book, or saved by some sort of deux ex machina (that literary device I do recall the meaning of!) or in any way meant to be some sort of sacrificial lamb. In the context of the Realms he was and acted as he should have. That's enough for me. It always is.
Oh, and you can have the last word Never. I'm done with this thread - it's going to die a lonely death I feel. Take care and enjoy your time here at Candlekeep.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 01:25:07
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| No offense to any of the posters, but I think this thread has served its purpose. Topic locked. |
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'Shadows of Doom' a disappointment
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