| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 00:41:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ranin
About human women having to reproduce with minotaurs: poor women. They would obviously die giving birth to creatures that large.
Though I agree with most of your other points, I disagree with this one. We don't know that minotaur babies are all that big, for one thing. And there have certainly been some rather large humans in the real world; Shaq, for example, is more than 7 feet tall and weighs 300+ pounds, and his mom is still around.
I'm hesitant to quote a purely DL source for potential lore on minotaurs in the Realms... However, Taladas: The Minotaurs suggests that minotaur babies are often born slightly larger than the average human baby.
While I agree that minotaur babies in the Realms likely aren't born "big" as such, I would imagine there would be some size and mass differences between a healthy human baby and a healthy minotaur baby.
I can buy that. I just disagree with the idea that birthing a minotaur baby would kill a human mother. I can see there being issues -- perhaps even serious complications -- but not necessarily death. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 01:33:17
|
Unless they're minotaur twins...
I'll note further, that this is also why the possibility of minotaur twins, even born to minotaurs themselves, are such a rare occurence... 'Tis often a traumatic experience, sometimes proving fatal, for both mother and babies.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Ranin
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 03:20:06
|
Well I was'nt saying minotaur babies are like giant babies or ogre babies. But some human mothers can't survive birthings of natural human babies in the first place, even with modern medical technology not to mention being born in a minotaur's setting or medieval-based fantasy world. A mintaur's head, for example, is the size and likeness of a bovine's-far larger than a human's. A calf's head, though delicate at birth, is not as a soft baby human's head. And it is significantly larger than a human baby's as well.
Humans are not meant to develop much in the mother's womb, therefore are born fragile, and the mothers womb was made to support a small, underdeveloped offspring in comparison to a beast or halfbeast or animal such as a prey animal like bovine. About Shaq, he has the genetics of a large person and nowadays, women can bear such a large one. He IS big, but you can't compare him to being partially descended from a bull.  He IS still human born fragile at birth.
No, human mothers's womb could'nt handle the size of a bovine hybrid and the birthing would tear the poor mother in two. |
Listen to the silence of the wilds, in there lies the wisdom of ages. |
Edited by - Ranin on 02 Jan 2007 03:32:15 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 04:04:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ranin
Well I was'nt saying minotaur babies are like giant babies or ogre babies. But some human mothers can't survive birthings of natural human babies in the first place, even with modern medical technology not to mention being born in a minotaur's setting or medieval-based fantasy world. A mintaur's head, for example, is the size and likeness of a bovine's-far larger than a human's. A calf's head, though delicate at birth, is not as a soft baby human's head. And it is significantly larger than a human baby's as well.
Humans are not meant to develop much in the mother's womb, therefore are born fragile, and the mothers womb was made to support a small, underdeveloped offspring in comparison to a beast or halfbeast or animal such as a prey animal like bovine. About Shaq, he has the genetics of a large person and nowadays, women can bear such a large one. He IS big, but you can't compare him to being partially descended from a bull. He IS still human born fragile at birth.
No, human mothers's womb could'nt handle the size of a bovine hybrid and the birthing would tear the poor mother in two.
If minotaurs are humanoids, then they are designed to come out of humanoid wombs. So they can't be compared to cows. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 07:24:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ranin
Humans are not meant to develop much in the mother's womb, therefore are born fragile, and the mothers womb was made to support a small, underdeveloped offspring in comparison to a beast or halfbeast or
animal such as a prey animal like bovine.
I will have to agree with Wooly on this; the minotaur is as much, if not more, humanoid than bovine. the fact that a minotaur calf/ child ages far slower than the offspring of most animals is also a hint it is nearly as fragile at birth as a human. There is the size difference in the head, but this is fantasy and the minotaurs may be borne with a head slightly small or slender for their body, that grows into proportions within the first year or so.
Even if it was to complicate the birth somewhat and increase the chance of mortality I don't see a minotaur offspring as almost a death sentence for a woman.
You also forget the important element of magic; the clergy of for example Chaunthea could easily have access to magic that would make the magic possible and the minotaur shamans could also have methods to help in childbirth. |
|
|
|
Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 21:25:10
|
I love the idea of a strong, organized and "cultured" Minotar society.
I could easily see a Minotaur society similar to Warcraft's Tauren in the unexplored lands north of Maztica, sure it blatantly copies Native American culture, as does the idea of putting them there of all places, but the Realms has evolved to include numerous examples of societies based on history. The very existance of Maztica is the best example in this case.
So if these "Tauren" exist there, perhaps Faerun Minotaurs are an offshoot. They ended up across the ocean in strange lands and faced disasters and hardships that caused them to evolve into a more barbaric and "monstrous" form, the Minotaurs we know today.
Personaly I like a more advanced almost Roman Minotaur civilization of warriors and mercenaries (drawing upon Klingons as an example of the Battle-loving, honor bound warriors), but I think the "Tauren" model works better in the realms.
In either case I'd definately say there are Minotaur women and true Minotaurs are born from such a joining. The joining of a Minotaur and a Human would probably produce a Half-Minotaur of sorts, stronger than human, weaker than a true Minotaur.
|
|
|
|
Ranin
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 21:23:51
|
I suppose this is a magic world, but in my view, part of the greatness of the fantasy world is how its NOT totally fantastic. For example, no one character can do ANYTHING. There has to be limitations of some sort that the readers can relate to.
No offense, but the idea of human women mating with Minotaurs sounds a little out of wack. Theres just no way.
I know that the minotaurs are not really just animal-human hybrids, but they are monsters still. That gives even more backing to my argument. They are far stronger than average humans. They MUST be born more developed than a human offspring. They do, for example, ram opponents like a bull in an arena and in every minotaur version I've seen (a lot including FR) they can crush stone with their heads. I'd like to see a human (no spells on him nor master of the mind so well as to do so like a master monk) try that.
So these priests would go down to wherever the minotaurs live, enact spells on human women so as to make their birth canals three times as wide or the minotaur's head smaller? It all sounds so...impractical, and just...obsurd.
No Minotaurs are independent of that with with their own females. They are numerous, for example, the drow keep them as slaves for shock troops. (From Legacy of the Drow) Since Menzobarranzan drow have no interaction with humans how would minotaurs procreate? I don't think drow surface raiding parties would kidnap women from nearby farms for their minotaurs. Just just how I see it. |
Listen to the silence of the wilds, in there lies the wisdom of ages. |
Edited by - Ranin on 03 Jan 2007 21:26:57 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 21:42:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ranin
No offense, but the idea of human women mating with Minotaurs sounds a little out of wack. Theres just no way.
I don't like the idea, myself. And I'm not saying it's the way things are. But... Minotaurs are humanoids. Therefore they are designed to be birthed from humanoids. They grown in a womb, just like human babies, and they exit the mother's body the same way human babies do. And while minotaurs are bigger and stronger than humans, it's not the same size difference as say, a human and a storm giant. Minotaurs are bigger, but not by a large factor. So, while I can see complications, I still don't see why a minotaur baby would kill a human mother. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2007 : 23:14:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ranin
No offense, but the idea of human women mating with Minotaurs sounds a little out of wack. Theres just no way.
I don't like the idea, myself. And I'm not saying it's the way things are. But... Minotaurs are humanoids. Therefore they are designed to be birthed from humanoids. They grown in a womb, just like human babies, and they exit the mother's body the same way human babies do. And while minotaurs are bigger and stronger than humans, it's not the same size difference as say, a human and a storm giant. Minotaurs are bigger, but not by a large factor. So, while I can see complications, I still don't see why a minotaur baby would kill a human mother.
Agreed.
As I said earlier, the DL material notes that minotaur twins born to minotaurs are considered a rare occurence, mostly because a significant number born do not survive, or the mother dies during child birth due to the extensive trauma suffered during the birth itself.
I'd imagine this type of complication would be a little more frequent in human mothers who try to give birth to minotaur twins, since their slightly smaller, and less accomodating, physical structures may make it more difficult for the human female to successively carry minotaur twins to full term.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2007 : 00:15:05
|
Its been a while since I posted the original comment here, and mainly I was trying to get a handle on if the old 2nd edition lore on Minotaurs was valid, i.e. that all minotaurs were cursed males or the offspring of such. Its seems obvious that 3.5 has moved on from this, especially since we now have references to male medusa as well. I think 2nd edition was playing on the mythological origins more, but in the "modern" fantasy world, between Krynn and World of Warcraft, Minotaurs as a separate species with males and females is just a "simpler" solution all around.
For what its worth, Dragon Magazine 313 has an article called "Strange Bedfellows" that gives stats for half-ogres,-doppelgangers, -janni, -nymph, -rakshasha, -satyr, and -minotaurs. Some of this information may have been superceeded by later products that have come along, however, and there may be more than one way to represent some of these things (for example, you might argue that a half-rakshasha might be a half-fiend).
At any rate, I don't know that it would be any harder for a female human to give birth to a minotaur baby than an ogre child. Unless you assume that they are born with a full set of horns, which is unlikely. |
|
|
|
Ranin
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 09:05:24
|
Well, no I assume minotaurs would be born having a head which looks like a calf's without horns. Yes, they are humanoid and perhaps they could be born small not like a calf excatly. But imagine this: why do cesaerian (don't know if I spelled that right) births exist? I think its because human births are already more complex than any other animal birth.
I'm sure if we asked a woman who had a complicated birth in which without modern medical technology, they would say giving birth is no walk in the park. Okay I know this is fantasy, but the question on the board is HUMAN, not slightly advanced human. I'm sure still a significant portion of women don't survive giving birth to normal babies.
I think, no offense again intended, that you guys probably like me, don't really know what it is like to give birth. But again, it IS fantasy and heck, if we want to believe that a human woman could only feel sore after giving birth to a creature that would be about twelve feet tall as an adult and who would also be able ram through walls like cobwebs in an attic or carry off 400 lbs over their shoulder after a caravan raid...why not?
(Sorry ladies but heres where I'm glad I'm male)
|
Listen to the silence of the wilds, in there lies the wisdom of ages. |
|
|
|
Ranin
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 01:01:11
|
| ahh sorry i don't mean to extend this argument pointlessly |
Listen to the silence of the wilds, in there lies the wisdom of ages. |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 06:07:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ranin.
I think, no offense again intended, that you guys probably like me, don't really know what it is like to give birth. But again, it IS fantasy and heck, if we want to believe that a human woman could only feel sore after giving birth to a creature that would be about twelve feet tall as an adult and who would also be able ram through walls like cobwebs in an attic or carry off 400 lbs over their shoulder after a caravan raid...why not?
Well, in my 2ed. Monstrous manual it says about seven feet high for the average minotaur, if the newer versions of the creature is twelve I can understand your objections.
But if we combine the factors of the minotaur being borne somewhat small small, somewhere near, but above a human baby, but with a larger head and then put in an element of priestly and herbal magic that eases the birth. This would make for both a painful and dangerous birth, but not necessarily deadly. There could also be an extensive use of cesarean. With all of these I think the chance of a woman voluntarily bearing the offspring of a minotaur is rather slim.
But as the minotaurs are both brutal and evil their care for the mothers would probably be limited any way, their main interest would be the birth of the minotaur.
Another idea that just hit me (un-canon and only in my head right now) would be that the minotaurs are the offspring of Yak-men wanderers that assume the forms of other humanoids. This would make minotaurs rare though, or the Yak-men frighteningly common. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 06:27:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Another idea that just hit me (un-canon and only in my head right now) would be that the minotaurs are the offspring of Yak-men wanderers that assume the forms of other humanoids. This would make minotaurs rare though, or the Yak-men frighteningly common.
Well, yak-men were to be found in Zakhara (as Baur's "Lands of the Yak-Men" article in DRAGON #241 tells us).
So, if you can find a connection between the yak-men of Zakhara and the few minotaurs found in the Realms, you're most of the way toward an alternate origin theory! 
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 07 Jan 2007 06:28:17 |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 06:47:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, yak-men were to be found in Zakhara (as Baur's "Lands of the Yak-Men" article in DRAGON #241 tells us).
So, if you can find a connection between the yak-men of Zakhara and the few minotaurs found in the Realms, you're most of the way toward an alternate origin theory!
I was thinking of Baurs article when I wrote the above, he gave several thoughts about the Yak men traveling in other parts of the realms. The mountains of the bullmenn links to the Yehimals as far as I remember, so they may be secretly spread through the entire mountain chain and beyond. I find it logical that a group as manipulating and scheming as these would have their agents in other parts of Faerun spying for their emperor and their God. Maybe they have a link to their minotaur offspring enabling them to read their memories and minds or even travel directly in to their bodies.
Hm, suddenly I have ideas for a long campaign summing around in my head. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 07:17:31
|
I assume there are two types, the beastial ones who may or may not be cursed/changed by magic, and they fit the standard hooved version in the MM. Since it always seems to be wizards using them as gaurds perhaps there is a VERY evil spell floating around that creates these?
The other type, at least in my campaign, are very similar to the Krynnish minotaurs, excapt their culture is more American Indian (like WoW) then Norse (like Krynn). These are the ones that have the human type feet.
Originaly I had that group come through HUGE portal from Krynn (along with a few other creatures I 'borrowed') when Raistlin was throwing out some trash. Now I'm thinking that they could be the product of 'true' minotaur and human crossbreeding, hence the human feet and smaller stature?
I think this way we can literally have the 'best of both worlds'.
BTW, most average human babies are between 6-7 pounds. My first son was 10ld 6oz when he was born and my wife handled it quite well. My son is now 18, stands 6' 3", and weighs around 280lbs, and I'm fairly certain he is a minotaur (I keep checking for horns). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2007 07:18:02 |
|
|
|
Ranin
Seeker
88 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 01:22:50
|
Ahhhh...now I get it so the minotaurs of Faerun are not as massive as I imagine them. But they are still able to ram through walls I am sure. I still don't see why there can't be female minotaurs. I'm not saying there would be udders hanging, but they would be identical to males except for the genitals.
I understand that Medusae should all be female, as putting male characteristics would'nt make them Medusae. About that what are the characteristics of FR Medusae? I know the Greek legend perfectly, but I'm afraid my familiarity with the world of Toril and her monsters are limited to Salvatore's readings.
(By the way I was born 13+ lbs and my mother was 17 (now 45) but I still hold firm to my opinion.) |
Listen to the silence of the wilds, in there lies the wisdom of ages. |
Edited by - Ranin on 08 Jan 2007 01:28:37 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 01:44:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ranin
I still don't see why there can't be female minotaurs.
No one said there weren't any female minotaurs... We've just not seen them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 04:08:45
|
At one point in time, male medusa were called Maedar, and were detailed in the 2nd Edition Monstrous Compendium. However, in 3.5 we haven't seen any mention of Maedar, and we have had one novel detail a male "medusa" as well as at least one adventure that I can think of (City of the Spider Queen to be exact), that mentions a male medusa.
As far as minotaurs go, according to 3.5 rules, minotaurs are over 7 feet tall and weight about 700 lbs. So they aren't drastically taller than humans, but they are more muscular, and of course, there are the horns. |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 04:13:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I assume there are two types, the beastial ones who may or may not be cursed/changed by magic, and they fit the standard hooved version in the MM. Since it always seems to be wizards using them as gaurds perhaps there is a VERY evil spell floating around that creates these?
I actually do like the "multiple" origins idea. I think its entirely possible to say that small, isolated groups of "naturally occuring" minotaurs existed in the Realms, but that at some point in time some curse came about that transformed someone into a minotaur.
At some point, some sage who was never aware of the "naturally occuring" minotaurs could have researched minotaurs and found out about the "minotaur curse" and assumed that this was the only origin for the creatures.
In this way, you can reconcile older lore from 2nd edition without completely invalidating it in light of what we know now, which I like. |
|
|
|
Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2007 : 17:23:40
|
Not to start this discussion again, but I just found something interesting for this thread.
I was just reading through some of Ed's older answers and I found this in the answer about Brandon Battlemaster on April 4 2004: Beltarkh the Bold (CN hm Ftr7 [a very large, strong man with minotaur blood in his lineage])
This does indicate that there could be successful offspring from a human-minotaur coupling. It could be magical of course. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Minotaurs in the Realms: Origins?
