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doublesquirrel
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 04:53:20
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Good day, all.
My question is simple: Does Bahamut exist in the Forgotten Realms?
For those whom are confused, Bahamut is a goodly draconic god, and considered the antithesis of lady Tiamat.
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Of course, that's just my opinion. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 06:09:18
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Yes, Bahamut exists in the Realms. He is also called Xymor. He always had a presence in the Realms from early on. Not a major presence mindyou, but he was mentioned every now and then.
In 3e there was an attempt to cull all the unnecessary gods, and Bahamut didn't make the cut. But there was nothing anywhere official that said he was killed or ceased to exist. He just has not really been mentioned in 3E Realms anywhere. Of late the culling has been pretty much thrown out the window as a great deal of the culled gods have been reintroduced.
Tom Costa wrote a really cool write-up of Bahamut that he posted in this thread here (scroll down to post # 15) http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=410060
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 06:10:46
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Well, according to Realmslore, I don't believe Bahamut has a place in the Realms, which is quite sad. The reason Tiamat was brought in is because of her origin in the Babylonian myths.
However, you have every right to bring Bahamut/Paladine in as a god and it would probably work well since the Rage of the Dragons is upon us.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 06:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, according to Realmslore, I don't believe Bahamut has a place in the Realms, which is quite sad. The reason Tiamat was brought in is because of her origin in the Babylonian myths.
However, you have every right to bring Bahamut/Paladine in as a god and it would probably work well since the Rage of the Dragons is upon us.
C-Fb
Bahamut and Tiamat were both in the original Draconomicon, which was an FR product. 'Twas early in the days of 2E when this one came out, circa 1989 or so.
Dragginglance is the only setting that made Tiamat and Bahamut into incarnations of local deities, and dropped those names. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Nov 2005 07:01:28 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 14:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, according to Realmslore, I don't believe Bahamut has a place in the Realms, which is quite sad. The reason Tiamat was brought in is because of her origin in the Babylonian myths.
However, you have every right to bring Bahamut/Paladine in as a god and it would probably work well since the Rage of the Dragons is upon us.
C-Fb
Bahamut and Tiamat were both in the original Draconomicon, which was an FR product. 'Twas early in the days of 2E when this one came out, circa 1989 or so.
Dragginglance is the only setting that made Tiamat and Bahamut into incarnations of local deities, and dropped those names.
Actually with the new Holy Orders of the Stars book for Dragonlance, some of the cultures do refer to Paladine and Takhisis as Bahamut and Tiamat.
But yes, despite what that stupid little section in Faiths and Pantheons says, about there are no other gods but that list. Which of course has been overwritten since with new FR Supplements.
Bahamut did exist in the realms, along with these specific dragon gods from the 2E Draconomicon: Asgorath, Astilabor, Garyx, Hlal, Kereska, Lendys, Null, Tamara, Task, Xymor, Zorquan. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2005 : 15:49:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Bahamut and Tiamat were both in the original Draconomicon, which was an FR product. 'Twas early in the days of 2E when this one came out, circa 1989 or so.
A little tidbit from Faraer -
"* Of those listed, Bahamut and Yeenoghu appeared in the original Monster Manual (1977) and Ed accepted them into his Realms (not in the world, but existing in the same reality) from the start. But I don't think either Bahamut or Tiamat should be worshipped by dragons -- "Wyrms of the North" paints a clear enough picture that dragons are generally too proud and egotistical to place themselves firmly below others."
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 01:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Bahamut did exist in the realms, along with these specific dragon gods from the 2E Draconomicon: Asgorath, Astilabor, Garyx, Hlal, Kereska, Lendys, Null, Tamara, Task, Xymor, Zorquan.
While I agree that all these dragon gods existed at one time or another in the Realms, I am not sure that--even if we ignore the F&P culling altogether--that all these gods are still alive and active.
I think there is a very good case to be made that Asgorath has not been around in Millenia. There is a dragon origin myth in the FR1 Draconomicon that the Dragon races were spawned from Asgorath's blood when he/she was slain fighting the sun. I feel strongly that even if Asgorath did not die spawning the race, that he is probably an absentee All-Father.
My sense of it is that Asgorath dropped off the kids on Toril way back around -31,000 DR and left for other cosmoi and has never been back. I am sure though he is still worshipped by cults, or even clerics who have probably taken the Servant of the Fallen feat in order to get spells from him (in which case they are really probably drawing divine power from the divine principle of dragonkind or something like it.)
My personal take on it is that Asgorath did manifest an Avatar in the Realms which died in a spectacular fiery cataclysm spawning the dragon race, raining down eggs from the sky in a great meteor shower (per Giantcraft). But that's just speculation on my part, not canon.
I think there is also a case to be made that some of the dragon gods might have died during the time of troubles. I think Tiamat was definitely vying to consolidate her power and we know for sure she killed off Kalzareinad. I think it possible that she offed Zorquan too. And I really like the idea that maybe Tamara & Lendys were killed somehow and that perhaps Bahamut took their portfolios.
The draconic gods needn't have all been killed off by Tiamat either. They might have all tried to kill each other. And some of the other gods of other pantheons might have been gunning for them too.
I can just see Aerdrie Faenya tracking down Garyx in a cave outside Mulmaster and spearing him through the eye with a magic lance shouting "This one's for Syranita, you son of a bitch!" Regardless if it happened that way, it makes for a good story, and I think there are some good stories to be told involving the death of dragon gods.
The Time of Troubles gives a lot of wiggle room to allow for a restructuring of the draconic pantheon.  |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 01:39:25
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My article in the next Candlekeep Compendium will detail the arrival of the dragon race on Toril, including the dragon pantheon. And yes Bahamut makes an appearance.
To Sage's point, its very true that dragons today are mostly an agnostic bunch, but back in the Dawn Age they were fervent worshipers of Asgoroth and the entire pantheon. That all changes following the dragon holy wars... |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2005 : 02:02:46
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I am really looking forward to your article Brian. I agree with you that back during the reign of dragons (circa -30,000 DR to -24,000) the dragon pantheon was at the zenith of its power and glory, supreme among the many gods of Toril during that age.
I am sure that since that time the fortunes of the dragon gods have waxed and waned with the might of their people.
And I am very intrigued to read about how things change with the holy wars.  |
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Questions on Bahamut
