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darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
 Posted - 10 May 2006 : 02:06:21
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You are correct in your veiw of why he didn't help. But millions of drow lives are lost to his ex-wife ,because he wasn't man enough to do what he should have done to her millenia ago. His daughters chosen is only formidable because of Mystra that's not somthing the other drow can respect. Correlon was once a force to be feared
by the forces of evil did he loose more than his manhood to Lolth? He forged his sword with the might of worlds,overthough the Titans of Arboria,blinded Gruumsh(even they are gaining).
Helped drive back the Darkness of creation.All these things his poeple echoed while united.
When the light elves go down into darkness unending(extinction) there will still be drow,so who prepared their children better -the vicious Mother or The Uncaring Bias Father? |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 02:13:54
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Darkflame... can I suggest, before you make any further replies to this scroll, that you take a look over the Forum Code of Conduct (see the URL in my sig). Please take note of the specific points on posting replies here at Candlekeep.
Thank you  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 02:14:07
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| Thanks for the Dialogue shadowvar.It's great to know somone is actually out there! I respect your veiws and they help to shed light on the subject and keep me from being as stagnant as the seldarine and as unyeilding as the Ar-telquessir. |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 02:21:40
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Darkflame, I appreciate your contributions to the site, so I thought I would chime in and perphaps make a slight suggestion. We all have our quirks and our personal biases, but you may find a few more of the scribes here at the keep willing to participate in discussions with you if you dropped the in character thing a least a little, and were a bit less factional in some of the ideas that you have presented.
I can understand that you may not be a fan of Corellon or surface elves, and that's fine, but if you want to reason the shortcomings of the race or of Corellon, or wish to prove a shortcoming on his part, its more fun to have you post examples from books to back up your arguements than to post nebulous events from the books and then back up your opinions with colorful, but ultimately highly subjective, adjectives to describe Corellon.
I appreciate you wanting to chime in, and I want to encourage you to do so, I just wanted to give you some pointers that might help out if you want a few more of the scribes here to chime in on your posts.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 02:27:56
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In some ways I think this scroll should end, in other ways I think aspects of it should continue.
Frist thing one should remember is that FR deities are not all knowing. They make mistakes because of guessing wrong of what the future will bring.
Eilistraee church was clearly hurt by the banishment of her followers along with other dark elves, she also hard little help from her father. The is a fan fic out there that her father gave her silver hair as opsed to white hair which sounds nice, except Lolth's true forn is/was a black spider able to effect a dark elf form with any hair color.
Araushnee did indeed have the portfolio of "Elven destiny" but that was striped from her after being cast down from being a deity at all and turned into a demon, BTW bad move Corellon making her a demon, you should have made her a rabbit. Corellon clearly did not forsee the results of his actions of what was to come, not sure if any deity currently holds the future for elves.
Logic, Laws, dice do not apply to deities. What is is what is. The insane Lolth gains in power by killing herself and leaving her Clerics in great danger and many died (including all the males) it is beyound our understanding. In game terms one has to acept it is fact, no matter how illogical it is that Lolth gained power and the children of Lolth (one favored by Corellon) were unable to take advantage at all. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 02:53:05
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| (The Mask Is Off For Now) If I may ask, how can one deity take divinty from another? I never did understand that. I thought only Ao could strip someone of divinity.I know they can kill each other but.the way I understand it Araushnee was always a deity(I forgot what her porfolio was besides elven destiny). Also I read somewhere (The magehound novel,cousellers I think) that Lolth at one time was a servent of the Queen of Air/Darkness, do you think this was before or after she joined the seldarine (because it is hinted that she came from elsewhere-I quote since the coming of Araushnee,Correlon has settled into a decidedly male aspect. Could she be the daughter of the darkqueen? It explains her powermad attitude,and the ability to assume the evil spiderform(her favorate pastime was weaving),and her fearlessly approaching the evil gods of the Anti-seldarine.Are there anymore storys of the connection between the drow and the unseelie fairies besides the legends hinted in those halrauan books in the counseler series? |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 03:04:59
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I think Corellon could strip her because he is the acknowledged head of the Seldarine, and for better or worse, she did put herself under his authority. Then again, he also had Angharradh standing with him, the fusion of three elven goddesses.
Have you read Evermeet: Island of Elves? Elaine Cunningham wrote it, and it is a great book. As for if Lolth was originally serving the Queen of Air and Darkness, or if she were Unseelee before or after her fall, I would guess, if she were, that she was before she became a Tanar'ri, because in Evermeet she sets directly to work at subverting the Ilythiiri.
Since Elaine Cunningham wrote both Evermeet and the Coucilors and Kings books, you may want to ask her about it in her thread here at Candlekeep. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 03:35:58
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quote:
If I may ask, how can one deity take divinty from another?
The quick answer is taking away all portfolios. Under 3.5 rules having no portfolios means at best divine rank of 0, not able to grant spells to Clercs at all. Might as well be considered a demon oe angel for reduction in power. Lolth did not lose imortalty and had to fight to gain a portfolio to start again her rise to power.
Portfolios are taken from other deities, sometime by AO's grant, but also sometimes in the minor disputes between deities that AO appears not to care about.
There is not a clear answer of how it works that some deities share a portfolio or how one deity can take control of one, blocking another from it. We do know that portfolios do move, sometimes reducing deities and sometimes making a mortal a deity. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 10 May 2006 03:39:12 |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 14:34:58
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Of course, the real problem here is adapting gods from Gygax to the history of the Forgotten Realms. Ed Greenwood has mentioned a few times that he had “placeholder” spots open for the elven deities, and simply plugged in Gary Gygax’s gods. Elaine Cunningham has done a fantastic job of writing the elven history of these gods as they pertain to the Realms. But she still had to deal with the fact that the pantheon as a whole was created with alliances and oppositions already pre-baked.
The other problem we are dealing with (still) is the backlash of “Elf-itis” from second edition. Go and have a look at the Forums that Shall Not Be Named. If any sourcebook so much as hints at elves, a hugely vocal group of people show up and shout (whine) about how elves get all the attention (“Oh great, ANOTHER subrace of elves.”), complain about the Arcane Archer PrC (“All the good PrC’s are for elves!”) and various other, non-repeatable remarks. And that’s just from a hint of text. Gods forbid that a designer want to actually focus on elves. They’d probably nail the poor fellow to a tree in effigy.
Unless it’s drow. Drow sell books.
However, we have no choice but to deal with this and try and work out some ramifications from what we do know, and hammer it into the Realms as best we can.(Thankfully, most of the work has been wonderfully done by Elaine Cunningham.)
So, on the subject of Dark Elves who follow the Seldarine: A few years ago, I would have said it was rare, but given the attention that Drow have received, the Silence of Lolth, the fact that Eilistraee appears in the FRCS as one of the more popular deites, etc, I’m going to have to go with the fact that Drow are far more common upstairs now days.
And while Eilistraee may very well be the goddess of Drow redeption, there are going to be enough different kind of drow that a number of them are going to have other interests besides running around the woods, naked, in a wild hunt. The Seldarine is going to have Drow worshippers no matter what.
The fact that the deities in the Seldarine accept the dark elves as worshippers and clerics speaks for itself.
Eilistraee willingly accepted her banishment. Any damage done to her church as a result is her fault, and likely planned, as there was sure to be a time when she was needed to lead the drow back to the light. And here it is. We have to assume that gods and goddesses operate on a totally different level than we can conceive, and Eilistraee “taking one for the team” is part of that. She knew, in some way, that her time would come.
On Corellon punishing all of the Dark Elves for the actions of their leaders: From what I understood, the magic went awry. Not to surprising considering that it was the effort of a war torn race. This does not reflect any cruelty on the part of the Seldarine.
Removing High Magic from the Drow: Wanna bet that a drow who worships the Seldarine or Eilistraee could use High Magic? I would. I would also strip the drow of their ability to use High Magic as well. This isn’t cruel, it’s a price that had to be paid; sort of like taking the sword away from a sociopath. Sure, he might get eaten by a grue, but that’s preferable to him killing a village of Halflings.
On the Seldarine being weak: I agree with this. I blame the anti-elf sentiment. No one really wants to touch the subject. Cannon-wise, the Seldarine hasn’t done anything useful in ages. Not even so much as a Thunder-Blessing type deal. IMC, they are much more active, but cannon has them picking their noses. I too miss the Corellon that struck out the eye of the Orc god. On that note, it would be nice to see ANY of the other members of the Seldarine being mentioned. Ever.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Vainelus
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 17:51:14
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I missed Ed's statement on this. Do we even have a source that confirms that there was a church of Eilistraae prior to her banishment from the Seldarine? Before the Time of Troubles in Toril number of worshippers did not necessarily have anything to do with divine beings, Eilistraee could possibly be the only good dark elf that was banished.
Also, I have to second Jindael's statement about latent elf-hatred from 2ed carrying over into 3ed sources and discussions.
As for recent activities of the Seldarine, Corellon is responsible for inspiring the Elven Return to Faerun, whether that is useful or is of course subject to opinion. I think it is an interesting development.
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darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 20:40:59
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"Sword from a sociopath" good analogy! I'll be the first to admit the drow pobably would have destroyed toril with High magic had they been left with it. And yes I have read Evermeet it was a wonderful novel-which brings to mind the dancing sister herself predicted that her followers would never make it to the Elvenhomeland,does that mean even she knows they will never get the chance to rejoin the seldarine. And is her ability to see into the future inherited from Araushnee? If so why didn't
Araushnee see her abanishment? did she have a stye in her eye,or was she blinded by power lust(we know drow can be blinded by powerlust.)? |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 20:50:27
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quote:
Originally posted by darkflame millithor
"Sword from a sociopath" good analogy! I'll be the first to admit the drow pobably would have destroyed toril with High magic had they been left with it. And yes I have read Evermeet it was a wonderful novel-which brings to mind the dancing sister herself predicted that her followers would never make it to the Elvenhomeland,does that mean even she knows they will never get the chance to rejoin the seldarine.
Well, see this is the problem with retcons because she HAS rejoined the Seldarine in the new cosmology since she has a planar realm in the plane of Arvandor, which, as you know, is the plane of the Seldarine.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2006 : 21:25:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Vainelus
I missed Ed's statement on this. Do we even have a source that confirms that there was a church of Eilistraae prior to her banishment from the Seldarine? Before the Time of Troubles in Toril number of worshippers did not necessarily have anything to do with divine beings, Eilistraee could possibly be the only good dark elf that was banished.
"The Dark Maiden is the sister of Vhaeraun and the daughter of
Araushnee, who was cast out and became Lolth, and Corellon Larethian.
After Eilistraee nearly slew her father with an arrow during a great
battle between the Seldarine and a host of evil deities bent on
conquering Arvandor, the Dark Maiden forswore the use of ranged weapons
(although she permits them to her followers). Although her arrow went
astray because of Araush-nee's treachery, Eilistraee chose banishment
from Arvandor (and the Seldarine) along with her mother and brother,
foreseeing a time when she would be needed to balance their evil. On
Aheir-Toril, the Dark Maiden strove for centuries against the hatred of
Vhaeraun and his corrupting influence on the Ilythiiri (southern,
darkskinned elves). Eilistraee's power ebbed with the death of many of
her faithful in the Dark Disaster, and the rise of Lolth and Ghaunadaur
among the dark elves marginalized the influence of the Lady of the
Dance for millennia. Only in recent centuries has Eilistraee's faith
regained a small amount of prominence in Faerun, as the Dark Maiden
seeks to lead the fallen drow back to the long-forsaken light."
Well not quite an indication of a temple, this 2nd edition pasage clearly indicates Eiliistraee was active and revieved before The Dark Disaster (which killed many of her followers), and clearly an event that occured before The Desent.. I was considering the twisted Tower as a posible temple as well but do not recall if Eilistraee followers built it or others, she still has a presense there however weak. Also not sure when it was built, it has been held by both Good and Ecil Drow. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2006 : 18:41:55
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| I was asked by Alaundo to remove some of the posts in this scroll. If you have issues with these removals, then PM Alaundo and discuss it with him privately. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 04:58:34
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Vainelus, Many of the elves in evermeet don't beleive Correlon inspired 'THE RETURN' most of them are crusading partly because of the All for one and One for all mentality ,or Because the crusade is like the adventure of a Elven life time (for the young elves). Still If he'd put send an avatar to give Lord Miritar some real crediblity it would save a lot of usless argueing by the high-elves.The time has been passed for an avatar(the canon says correlon protects the homelands of the elves, but where?
Must have fallen.The famed boltes from heaven in evereska wasn't him,it was highmagic from the mythal. He hasn't protected anything or anyone in eons. See the human deities at least show up to their followers every now and then!For example Mystra showed up to personally try to save Adon(in front of others)and Elminster even in Hell! Frankly I'm surprised the elves still beleive in him! Lolth even shows herself to her followers.Belt- up and knuckle down correlon! |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
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Valus Gwaren
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2006 : 15:13:35
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Just as a somewhat off topic note, despite the wording in the quote a few posts back, Eilistraee CHOSE exile from Arvandor, and could return if she felt she should. I don't think that quite fits the definition of the word "Banishment."
This doesn't actually address any of this thread's concerns, more of a clarification, really. |
-Lord Valus Gwaren of Waterdeep, Harper Agent. |
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Vainelus
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2006 : 18:22:42
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Lolth intentionally has her followers fight amongst themselves. And she rarely intervenes in the drow affairs, and it is note worthy that most of time when she interferes it is to punish her people, not protect them. If the drow cannot defender their own cities and gain power on their own merits they do not deserve Lolth's aid. While not being quite as careless and rigid, the Seldarine is of a similar belief that they cannot simply come racing to the elves need every time they are in trouble. Inspiring Lord Miritar to call the crusade is still taking a hand in events. Also the elves, who do not believe in Lord Miritar's crusade are those railing against it, not those partaking in it. Most of the elves who joined Miritar seems to be more concerned with their duty end the danger their people caused to Faerun.
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2006 : 02:06:19
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I agree with the previous post comments, both the Seldarine and the Dark Seldarine wanted worthy and strong followers that can act independently while maintaining faith in their patrons, so that in the end, only the strongest followers will be on Faerun to promote the faith of their patrons.
By the way, I feel that the elves that answered Miritar's call to the Crusade was that they feel a need to defend their people abroad, to avenge the fallen who died during the daring raid by the daemonfey. I doubt they could undo their ancestors' damage to Faerun despite how they want to, for the damage had been done already. For those elves that protested against Miritar's crusade are merely trying to deny against change and destiny which they fear the most. To me, the elves chances of surviving on Faerun and relationship with other races will better and improve if they could accept change and destiny(that could had been molded secretly by the Seldarine themselves.) |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Drow and the Seldarine and the Dwarven deities
