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Khondar
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Mar 2006 : 01:00:39
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The next 2E PBeM I run I hope to incorporate the regional languages presented in the 3E FRCS. I never liked the idea of PCs roaming the realms speaking Common - which is used primarily as a trade language. The language information presented in the 3E FRCS seems to work nicely - from what I've read so far.
I plan on having the PCs pick a home region and being able to pick their bonus languages from that region, just as 3E – with the ‘house rule’ that the total number of languages (including Common) is not to exceed their Intelligence ‘Number of Languages’ score. Additional languages, excluding those not listed in their region, may be purchased with NWP. Languages not listed in their region must be gained through experience – i.e. after 1st level. I’m running 2E, so many of the languages from the 3E FRCS will be left out. For example none of the ‘elemental’, ‘underdark’, ‘other worldly’, or ‘underwater’ languages will be an option. 
I would be interested in any comments fellow Realms fans would have on this subject.
Thanks
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2006 : 01:24:59
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| Chondathan might work as a good base language for your characters as it is spoken throughout the North and many far flung realms. Where it is not the primary tongue you may find that Chondathan is often spoken as a second language. |
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Khondar
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2006 : 01:35:41
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| Yep – Chondathan is available in most regions, one of the main reasons I think the 3E language system would work just fine for my 2E game. There are plenty of human tongues to go around – and given the wide-spread use of Chondathan it’s highly likely for the PCs to begin the game with a shared language. Plus with a far traveling campaign PCs will run into folk who speak various languages – I’m reminded of the ‘Black Company’ series – where a band of mercs travel their world and knowing various languages is a must. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2006 : 18:35:42
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| I like your ideas, it makes choosing a bonus language and using skill points to learn extra languages a more important facet of the game. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2006 : 18:40:00
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| The depiction of language in the 3E books is a simplification of Tom Costa's "Speaking in Tongues" in Dragon Annual #4, with the addition of new D&D languages like 'draconic'. That treatment is more complex than I need: I prefer the sword-and-sorcery convention of largely glossing over linguistic barriers. |
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Khondar
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 00:26:05
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I’ve read a few posts here that site Mr. Costa’s “Speaking in Tongues” article. Not having access to the Annual #4 I can only go on comments from folks that have read it – all-in-all good responses.
All I want to do with this game is to give it a more realistic ‘feel’ for the players. Having various human languages in use – different coinage (i.e. different mints – be they from Cormyr or wherever) – little things like that I believe will add more ‘depth’ to the game. Or it could turn into a cluster #@%&^* – who knows.
Thanks for the opinions so far. Every comment sparks more ideas.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 04:22:59
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One thing that's plagued me for years (and I only run 2e games) is the high cost of adding languages. In 3e, it's no problem. One skill point gives you everything you need, and skill points tend to be plentiful, even to spell casters and like characters. However proficiency slots are much rarer, and it always seemed that if I forced my players to use a number of them to learn multiple human languages was a bit overly-restrictive. That's why I always stuck to Common.
Note, I'm not opposed to your idea. I think it would make for a more realistic game if you can pull it off. I just think a middle ground needs to be found between 2e (too costly to learn a language) and 3e (to easy). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 04:35:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
....In 3e, it's no problem. One skill point gives you everything you need, and skill points tend to be plentiful, even to spell casters and like characters....
1 skill point for Bard (and some PrC) only, others characters must pay 2 skills points. |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 07:50:24
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| Not to nit-pick, but it was 3.5 vs. 3.0 that made other languages a skill vs. a feat. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 19:38:34
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| Hmm. Well, I don't think I've even *read* the 3.0 PHB, so if it was a feat in 3.0, I didn't know. But in 2e, to learn a language you had to expend a non-weapon proficiency slot, and you got them about as often as feats in 3e. And I didn't know about bards vs non-bards (I think all the 3e GM's I've gamed with missed that bit, since it's never enforced). So thanks for all the clarification. I still think my point stands, you need some sort of in-between. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 19:48:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
Not to nit-pick, but it was 3.5 vs. 3.0 that made other languages a skill vs. a feat.
Maybe I missed something, but how was gaining ranks in Speak Language a feat in 3.0? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 20:13:09
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Even in 3.0 Speak Language did not require the use of a skill point, bonus langauge were availabl if Int 12 or higher.
What 3.0 did was change what was a NWP (simalar to a feat in some ways) into a rankless skill. Perhaps it should never been listed as a skill in the first place, instead just listed as a feature of high Int skill (like bonus spells for Int based spell casters). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Khondar
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 02:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
One thing that's plagued me for years (and I only run 2e games) is the high cost of adding languages. In 3e, it's no problem. One skill point gives you everything you need, and skill points tend to be plentiful, even to spell casters and like characters. However proficiency slots are much rarer, and it always seemed that if I forced my players to use a number of them to learn multiple human languages was a bit overly-restrictive. That's why I always stuck to Common.
Note, I'm not opposed to your idea. I think it would make for a more realistic game if you can pull it off. I just think a middle ground needs to be found between 2e (too costly to learn a language) and 3e (to easy).
Well met,
The middle ground that I was going to use was a ‘house rule’ allowing starting PCs to begin the game with as many languages as their Intelligence would allow. These beginning languages would be ‘free’ – but must come from their region – PCs being able to pick any, up to their Intelligence number of languages score, of the regional bonus languages they wanted. These beginning languages would not require using any of the PC’s starting NWPs – allowing the players to use these points in other areas of character development.
The ‘house rule’ would also allow the PCs to learn, buy using future NWPs, additional languages – including those not available to their region (provided they had someone to learn it from). A PC could, if he/she decides to spend the NWPs toward it, learn numerous languages - at the cost of new NWPs.
Just an idea…but like you stated - my 'house rule' may be too easy. It's something to think about at any rate. My thanks.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 04:34:08
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(I'm going to bow out of the 3e discussion, since that's not where I've devoted my studying).
To Khondar: That sounds a lot like one of the options in the PHB for dealing with starting and learned languages, except that you've added regions and multiple human languages. Are you allowing your players to use those starting slots on normal NWP if they want instead of languages?
My point is that you seem to have increased the number of languages PC's would want to learn, without providing any kind of increase in how they can learn them. Thus they can either learn fewer languages or fewer generic NWP. It seems a bit like punishing the PC's as you insert somethng cool.
Hmm. I've been negative enough, let's see if I can come up with a possible solution... [wanders off thinking] OK, how's this? You said each of your PC's has a home region, so they get the home region language for free (Chondathan, in the example earlier in the thread). This can also be used as a base for what kind of accent the PC would speak other languages with.
Taking Europe as an example of an area where there are a large number of diiferent languages in close proximity, each PC would then get 2-4 other languages (depending on how you see your campaign) known in that region for free, PC choice. Those are the languages he/she would have picked up over their childhood from passing traders, the immigrant down the road, etc. Note this means that a PC could possibly start without Common, since Common is not the base language in some regions (I think).
Then, all other NWP slots are used normally, either for languages or NWP's. This includes the number under "Max Languages," per that optional rule.
What do you think? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Khondar
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 02:42:50
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Are you allowing your players to use those starting slots on normal NWP if they want instead of languages?
No. The languages the PCs are allowed to choose do not count toward or against their starting NWPs. Thus, a first-level fighter with an Intelligence of 14 would begin the game knowing 4 different languages and have 7 NWPs (3 from Class and 4 from Intelligence bonus). I don’t want to force players in any part of their character development – that’s their end…
It (this house rule) may be too Monty – but learning new languages in 2E is expensive and time consuming. Thus learning a bunch of languages is typically skipped in favor of normal NWPs - in my gaming experiences...
My point is that you seem to have increased the number of languages PC's would want to learn, without providing any kind of increase in how they can learn them. Thus they can either learn fewer languages or fewer generic NWP. It seems a bit like punishing the PC's as you insert somethng cool.
I see your point. Hopefully my first response answers this. It would suck to be a player and have a DM make you spend over half your character’s precious NWPs toward languages…
Player 1: “No I can’t gauge the rings worth – but I can tell how to say ‘ring’ in Shaaran…will that help?”
Player 2: “Uh…no, not really.”
Player 1: “Damn.”
That would make for a very short game – and unhappy players.
I like the languages as they were done for 3E. I would like to do the same for 2E. Is this house rule giving too much? I don’t know – it doesn’t seem too much to me, but I’ve been wrong before.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 03:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Khondar
Thus, a first-level fighter with an Intelligence of 14 would begin the game knowing 4 different languages and have 7 NWPs (3 from Class and 4 from Intelligence bonus).
Ah, I see. As I recall, the optional rule allowed the intelligence bonus (4, in this case) to be used on *either* languages or NWP, in essence making them normal NWP slots. So in your example, the fighter would have one base language, and then 7 (3 class + 4 int) slots to do with as he pleases.
I like your house rule. In my experience, giving players 7-8 proficiency slots at creation doesn't lead to overly powerful characters, especially as some of the more interesting NWP's can take up a lot of slots. Adding the language slots again scales up PC options at the same time as the complexity increases. I'd say it might work, but I'd be interested in your feedback after your campaign gets going. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 04:37:13
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Hello-
One point from my perspective - I think it is sometimes unreasonable to imagine a starting character - especially a human fighter or theif with their low starting ages - to already know that many languages.
I might suggest that they could gain another language (up to the max based on your system) after a year in-game of traveling (i.e. adventuring) with someone willing to teach them. In this way - players couild gain languages outside of their region - over time - and also a group could consciously decide to all learn some obscure language that one of the PCs actually Does know - in order to have a language that is more 'for us' in certain situations.
You could even limit the possible languages learned in this fashion - restricting it so that Infernal, or some other languages can NOT be chosen in this way.
Just a thought. I know back when I was playing 2nd ed (not that I've actually switched to 3rd - still trying to learn it - but not playing 2nd either  ) We basically did that same system - Languages bonus based on Int - oplus your nonweapon prof's on top of that.
One DM I had as I recall allowed the languages based on Int - but you did have to spend ONE NWP on 'language-learner' - but could then get your full 4 extra languages afterwards. Slightly diminishing the available NWP's - but not impacting it a whole lot.
In both his game - and in mine it should be noted - Writing or Reading of the language is NOT included. This is purely a spoken beneifit. NWPs would have to be spent to gain those - though as I recall you could gain them in pairs - 1NWP gets you read/write in whichever language you chose. In this system you could give characters with a 12+ Int score read/write in one language as a free bonus - unless their background precludes it. Mostly for demi-humans this would be their racial language,a nd for humans and 1/2 elves/orc this would be Common.
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 05:24:22
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I think it depends on where the character is coming from. This risks making the issue even more complicated, but here I go anyway...
Anywhere that is relatively isolated or xenophobic (Rashemen or Halruaa, for instance) is likely to be relatively language-poor, with only one or two languages spoken. A character from those areas is likely to know that language and no other. Moreover, it would be harder for such a person to learn another language, even as they travel and become exposed to them. A good real-world example of this is your average American.
On the other hand, someone from a cosmopolitan area (Waterdeep or Silverymoon), along a major trade route (the Golden Way), or somewhere with traditionally tight ties with neighboring demi-human realms (Mirabar and the dwarves) are likely to learn multiple languages growing up, and have less trouble picking up new languages throughout life. Your average European is a good Earth example of this.
So, to a large extent, how many languages you learn is less dependant on your class or starting age, than where you grew up. I would expect a street urchin in Waterdeep to know several languages, whereas it's quite likely that there are extremely smart Halruaan archmages that can only speak their language, and maybe an old or dead one for their studies.
How I would work this into a game is something I haven't even begun to think about. In all cases, this is discussing an average member of a society, and we all know adventurers are anything but average. I wouldn't have a problem upping a PC's known languages to the maximum believable level (sort of like how all PC's in Dark Sun automatically had a psionic wild talent, without having to roll for it), but if you want to carry this out, a PC from a cosmopolitan area would know most likely know more languages and learn extras easier than someone from back of beyond where all they speak is Common. I'd need to be careful not to overly punish characters for taking isolated regions, though.
Oh, and I always give reading/writing with a spoken language, provided it's believable (ie: a modern, living language). Ed has spoken several times about the high FR literacy level, and how even farmers enjoy reading and discussing various publications. So it's supported in FR canon, and I see no reason to bring in another headache by having to keep track of how many characters a character can speak but not write and vice versa. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Khondar
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 01:55:44
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Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. I’m in the process of creating a complete house rule document that covers all aspects of character creation. This runs the gambit from starting ability scores to posting format – most I copied from a PBeM I played in back around 2000, and modified as needed.
I’m still working/modifying on the language part, but thanks for all input so far.
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 05:04:04
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| in fact ... Halruaan is quite fund of learning languages ... and many knows a lot of diffent ones ... they just primary learn old deseased languages to help them read old books |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 13:28:37
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Yeah, Halruaa probably wasn't the best example. It's isolated and somewhat xenophobic, but with so many mages around there have to be completely language-poor.
To be honest, I was grasping at straws trying to stay away fromt he obvious Uthgardt example. Probably a better example than Halruaa would be Mulhorand. Not as isolated as Halruaa, but with an extremely high view of its own history and importance. Not exactly a culture that promotes understanding others and learning their languages. Unther would probably be the same, though Chessenta would be the opposite, since it's constantly in flux, and a major trading center to boot. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Khondar
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 19:40:18
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Ok – I’ve finalized my language section of my House Rules document. Here it is along with the rule for using Intelligence Language bonus for additional Non-Weapon Proficiencies.
How to create your character:
* Use the 2nd Edition Player’s Handbook to make up your character. You’ll start at first level unless I tell you to start higher. Take max funds for your class and you’ll also have max hit points (for 1st level). I allow the Intelligence Language bonus to be used for Non-Weapon proficiencies. Fighters (all subclasses) may use their Intelligence Language bonus for additional Weapon or Non-Weapon proficiencies as per the Complete Fighter’s Handbook. If you have any of the Complete books and want to use a kit, run it by me first for approval.
Languages:
All characters will begin play knowing as many starting languages as their Intelligence (Number of Languages) allows. Beginning languages are free to each character without cost to their starting NWPs. Thus, a Fighter with an Intelligence of 14 would begin the game knowing 4 different starting languages and have a total of 7 Non-Weapon Proficiencies (3 for class and 4 bonus points from Intelligence) to customize their character with. These beginning languages must be chosen from the character’s home region. Each region is divided into two sections: Automatic Languages and Bonus Languages.
• Automatic Language – these languages, such as Common, are the standard – or native tongue – for the region. The Reading/Writing NWP is given freely for each Automatic Language in a character’s home region. Characters must start play knowing each Automatic Language in his/her home region.
• Bonus Language – these languages, though not the primary languages of a region, are commonly spoken in that region of the Realms by merchants, shopkeepers, Inn owners, travelers, etc. Characters may choose his/her region’s Bonus Languages as they desire. The Reading/Writing NWP is not given for regional Bonus Languages and must be purchased by spending NWPs toward the ability for each language.
NOTE: The total number of Automatic and Bonus languages is not to exceed the character’s Intelligence Number of Languages score.
At any time a character receives additional NWPs he/she may spend these points toward learning new languages, including languages not associated with there home region. As with regional Bonus Languages, proficiency in a new language does not grant the Reading/Writing NWP associated with that language. By spending additional NWPs on languages characters may exceed their Intelligence Number of Languages amount.
A list of all Forgotten Realms regions and languages available in this PBeM can be found in “Languages of the Realms”, a word file located in the ‘Files’ folder.
Any comments?
Thanks again!
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Edited by - Khondar on 17 Mar 2006 21:50:41 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 21:41:12
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Overall, I like it. Allows things to be complicated without getting too complicated. Just a few notes:
I thought requiring the PC's to take all automatic languages was a bit unfair, until I rechecked my 3e regions and noticed most have only 1 automatic language. So that's ok.
I have a bias for literate games and characters, so I would give at least one bonus language literacy if you don't want them all to be literate (this could either be player choice, or DM choice). Also, I'd allow players to spend bonus language slots to gain literacy if they desire. This would especially be important for, say, a demi-human who dabbles in merchant business, as they wouldn't otherwise be able to start being able to write in Common.
Other than that, I have only one question: what's PBeM? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Khondar
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 21:49:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
...I have a bias for literate games and characters, so I would give at least one bonus language literacy if you don't want them all to be literate (this could either be player choice, or DM choice). Also, I'd allow players to spend bonus language slots to gain literacy if they desire. This would especially be important for, say, a demi-human who dabbles in merchant business, as they wouldn't otherwise be able to start being able to write in Common.
Other than that, I have only one question: what's PBeM?
Characters will be literate in their regional automatic languages. This is free to the players - going off Ed's statements about literacy in the Realms.
PBeM - Play By e-Mail
Thanks for your comments |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2006 : 02:51:21
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Hello-
I like it - works quite well -a nd keeps a lot of elements without totally overpowering or overtaxing the characters.
Curious - you wrote:
"A list of all Forgotten Realms regions and languages available in this PBeM can be found in “Languages of the Realms”, a word file located in the ‘Files’ folder."
Does this mean that you distribute a diskette to each of your players or some such? I think thats a wonderful idea! I for one would be interested in what other types of things you have for guidance for the players! 
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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Khondar
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2006 : 03:17:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
Hello-
I like it - works quite well - and keeps a lot of elements without totally overpowering or overtaxing the characters.
Curious - you wrote:
"A list of all Forgotten Realms regions and languages available in this PBeM can be found in “Languages of the Realms”, a word file located in the ‘Files’ folder."
Does this mean that you distribute a diskette to each of your players or some such? I think thats a wonderful idea! I for one would be interested in what other types of things you have for guidance for the players!
Dhomal
I plan on using Yahoo Groups for my game. I’ll upload all House Rules, NPC portraits, Maps, Player handouts, etc. to the ‘File’ folder on the game’s home page. Each player will have access to these files – either to download and save, or just pull up and read/look at, etc.
Yahoo - though not everyone's favorite, has always worked just fine for me. I believe (though I haven't checked for some time) that each Group page is allowed 20MB or so of storage space - that's plenty for me.
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Regional languages in 2E
