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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 17:18:06
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Okay, so this discussion was started in the Villains in Novels thread (specifically, page 9 of that thread).
In first edition AD&D, there was a concept called Alignment Languages. Basically, each of the nine alignments had its own language, and being of that alignment meant you automatically knew this language.
I cannot recall ever having seen this idea used in a novel, nor do I recall any Realms references to it. But the topic has come up, so I started this thread to keep from derailing another.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 17:22:55
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To continue the discussion:
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
It's about a crappy RPG device that overlooks anything remotely like realism, intellect, actual linguistics, and... you know. Those terribly trivial things.
I'm kinda glad now that I was never acquainted with the 1st edition.
What does any of that have to do with alignment speech? Why would a speech composed of words that resonate with one's SOUL require linguistics? Do you have no imagination man?
I prefer my gameworlds a tad more magical.
I like magic and all, but even a fantasy world has to be believable. For me, knowing a language simply because of your moral outlook is not believable. I don't care if you call it speaking to the soul or something else -- it simply doesn't fit into a setting where people have to learn any other language they may use.
If it was something that had to be learned, I could buy it a lot more readily (though I'd wonder at the usefulness of it). But to automatically know it? Nope. I can't see any justification for that. And, considering the fact that later editions of the game have not used this concept, I would argue that the game designers were of a similar opinion. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Mar 2006 17:25:13 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 17:32:29
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I also agree that it would make absolutely no sense for all characters of a given alignment to be able to communicate regardless of where they are from or what languages they have learned.
I think the time that it would be appropriate/cool would be when an outsider wants to communicate with a mortal. Like if a Paladin stumbled accross an Angel than they should be able to communicate. But that is really already taken care of by the game designers when they gave Angels tongues as a special ability and all devils have telepathy as a special ability. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 17:46:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
It's about a crappy RPG device that overlooks anything remotely like realism, intellect, actual linguistics, and... you know. Those terribly trivial things.
I'm kinda glad now that I was never acquainted with the 1st edition.
What does any of that have to do with alignment speech? Why would a speech composed of words that resonate with one's SOUL require linguistics? Do you have no imagination man?
I prefer my gameworlds a tad more magical.
I prefer mine to be plausible and internally consistent as well as logical. There's no rationale to justify "alignment language" -- and nor is there a necessity, given telepathy and tongues abilities as mentioned above. Besides which, "speeeak to the soul" seems terribly fluffy to me. What if two people with the same alignment were brought up with completely different cultures, religions, and mindsets? There's no such thing as universal moral; what's good to one may not be good to the other. They might even be pursuing goals from opposite ends of the spectrum. So why, precisely, should their souls "resonate" to each other? Sounds like lazy writing to me. Conflict creates drama creates interesting roleplaying.
I also find the cry "Don't you have imagination?!" to generally belong to someone who interprets fantasy and sci-fi as "space you can throw random, unrelated, internally inconsistent crap in and get a pass-all card because it's genre." |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 18:26:12
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| To my way of thinking, something like an alignment language--soul speaking to soul, if you will--might make sense on its own terms in a smaller imaginary world that's drenched in spirituality and perhaps explicit allegory--like Narnia. It doesn't work as well for me in a sprawling world like the Realms with its diversity of cultures and its abundance of rough-and-ready types who don't come across as particularly spiritual or ethereal at all. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 18:49:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
What does any of that have to do with alignment speech? Why would a speech composed of words that resonate with one's SOUL require linguistics? Do you have no imagination man?
I prefer my gameworlds a tad more magical.
*snip some text*
I also find the cry "Don't you have imagination?!" to generally belong to someone who interprets fantasy and sci-fi as "space you can throw random, unrelated, internally inconsistent crap in and get a pass-all card because it's genre."
I wholeheartedly agree.
Charles, if we did not have any imagination we would not read and in some cases (like all the FR authors, Winterfox, and myself) write fantasy or any other fiction.
If you create a world you have to think it through. You constantly have to ask yourself "Why this?" and "Why that?". If you don't do that you may be very imaginative... but your imagination runs without structure and 'life'. To have your alignment language in your world I would like to know why? Oh and why did they actually develop language? And if you have alignment language can a true neutral person speak with plants and animals also? Because if it is the language of the soul as you claim, then your friendly gardener Mr Miller who is true neutral will have all those bunny rabbits and pidgeons and foxes over for tea to discuss philosophy. No wait, not the fox, he is chaotic neutral.
And for that matter, why doesn't Mr Miller talk with the stones as well?
Your world can be as imaginative as you want it to be, heck little children play Barbie with Ninja Turtles, so yes, you can have your soul speaking... but that is nothing us 'un-imaginative' people want... we want worlds you can take a big-ass mallet to and will still hold up, because these can and usually do make sense to others who are outside our little worlds... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 18:55:30
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Just because you don't know the rationale for something, don't assume there isn't one.
There certainly is in the World of Greyhawk, the setting where alignment languages originate and belong. They are private, secret languages, like Latin, used for communication between members, especially priests and high-up agents, of Oerik-wide communities based on alignment divides, in a world where the nine alignments are fundamental divisions of the cosmos and society. Not everyone knows an alignment tongue, and that all PCs do in AD&D is an abstraction for the purposes of gameplay, like the way all demihumans know the same set of languages, and other parts of the character-creation process.
On the other hand, alignment languages don't fit the Realms. |
Edited by - Faraer on 20 Mar 2006 18:58:38 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 19:10:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
If you create a world you have to think it through. You constantly have to ask yourself "Why this?" and "Why that?". If you don't do that you may be very imaginative... but your imagination runs without structure and 'life'.
{snip}
Your world can be as imaginative as you want it to be, heck little children play Barbie with Ninja Turtles, so yes, you can have your soul speaking... but that is nothing us 'un-imaginative' people want... we want worlds you can take a big-ass mallet to and will still hold up, because these can and usually do make sense to others who are outside our little worlds...
Agreed. It has to hold up to scrutiny and be able to suspend disbelief by having its own solid axis on which everything rests. If the reader has to blink and keep going "Huh?" or "What the hey?", then you haven't done a very good job. There's, of course, no need to explain every single thing and turn your thing into an enclycopedia or a copy of your worldbuilding notes, but it has to be implicit and hold together. Besides, "imaginative" is becoming an excuse much like the way an art student-wannabe mixes pigments into hideous shades, splashes them on a canvas randomly (with eyes closed), then calling it "art."
Incidentally, the image of Mr Miller the friendly TN gardener having tea with animals, plants and stones is so incredibly cute.  |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 19:28:07
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| This is somewhat off topic, but one of the DMs in whose games I used to play way back when let you choose Horse as one of your bonus languages. It always turned out to be really, really useful. Much more so than my alignment tongue, whatever it happened to be. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 19:50:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
This is somewhat off topic, but one of the DMs in whose games I used to play way back when let you choose Horse as one of your bonus languages. It always turned out to be really, really useful. Much more so than my alignment tongue, whatever it happened to be.
Which were you, Wilbur or Mr. Ed?  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Mar 2006 19:51:07 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 19:55:07
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| In the World of Greyhawk, again, two tongues that can be learned are the language of burrowing mammals (Player's Handbook p. 16) and the language of woodland mammals (Unearthed Arcana p. 10). |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 21:32:28
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Forest gnomes could learn the language of small forest creatures in 2e (or maybe automatically knew it), but that's because they were even closer to their environments than elves were. That doesn't mean that your average (or even above average) member of another race could learn it.
For the record, I think other made-up languages like thieves cant and druidic make much more sense than alignment language. Plus, I remember as part of Temple of Elemental Evil, if you ticked off the correct people, they eventually sent a high-level assassin who spoke your alignment language to kill you. If others can learn it, what's the point? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 21:45:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
*snip some*
They are private, secret languages, like Latin, used for communication between members, especially priests and high-up agents, of Oerik-wide communities based on alignment divides, in a world where the nine alignments are fundamental divisions of the cosmos and society.
Wow, Latin is a secret, private language... guess Caesar would've loved that idea... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 21:56:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
For the record, I think other made-up languages like thieves cant and druidic make much more sense than alignment language. Plus, I remember as part of Temple of Elemental Evil, if you ticked off the correct people, they eventually sent a high-level assassin who spoke your alignment language to kill you. If others can learn it, what's the point?
Hehe, back to the TN gardener picture. If an assassin in the scenario learned TN...poor bastard, he'd be hearing voices everywhere...
Assassin X walks through city Y, and he is holding his hands over his ears to block out the babbling of a thousand cobblestones, bricks, logs, horseys, and even the flies talk to each and one another. Unfortunately he has gloves on, which also happen to be TN. And they keep bitching about how he never oils them properly, and that one time when he was hanging by the fingertips off some ledge that one of them got a real nasty bruise. And then they go on about what he does when he has some private time and how disgusted they are... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 22:19:36
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Well I don't feel the need to respond to most of these points because things like linguistics, a person's interpretation of good and evil, and culture have nothing to do with it whatsoever. The first thing we have to acknowledge is that in Dungeons and Dragons there's no such thing as cultural relativity. What a person believes to be good and evil is utterly worthless to the immutable standard that they are held to by the game setting itself. The in game presence of Know Alignment also points out that this is beyond a cultural factor and something born instead of the same immutable standard. A person could rail against the Heavens that executing X race is "good" but it doesn't matter because he's not going to change his god's mind.
Alignment languages for me are about further erasing the barriers between culture, race, and so on to establish a stronger tie based on purely one's allegiance to good, neutrality, or evil. While it may not be Forgotten Realms, it certainly has a valid story basis that built into the subconscious of every human being is sort of a telepathy or "special language" (Pre-Tower of Babel?) that allows them to transcend cultural barriers to speak with people that share their belief structure. A 'true langauge' that if you go Silmarillion on us would have been corrupted to make the Black Speech and a person's moral perversion also makes evil people unable to understand it.
It' not for everybody but I like the idea that the Chosen Champions of Good and Evil may be provided a special voice that allows them to communicate with members of their brethren in evil. Sort of reinforcing that an orc's loyalty is NOT to the orcish race and that he'll join with his mortal enemies in service to darkness because...we'll....at heart he is a slave to the Dark Lord.
Like the "Good" followers of Tash and Aslan, they join together against the evil followers because their bond transcends their cultural difference. The "secret language" that they all understand even if they can't speak it only reinforces this.
It works better than tongues too. Sort of like Londo Mollari not being able to see the Vorlon's true form. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 20 Mar 2006 22:22:17 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 23:06:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Like the "Good" followers of Tash and Aslan, they join together against the evil followers because their bond transcends their cultural difference. The "secret language" that they all understand even if they can't speak it only reinforces this.
But that's not necessarily an alignment language in effect... It could be the same thing many powerful critters have, a (semi-)telepathic ability to communicate with anyone.
Again, I cannot see how knowing a language because of your moral outlook makes any sense... And taking it a bit further, what happens when your alignment changes? Do you magically forget the language you knew last week, and magically know one that was totally incomprehensible before? What if you're borderline -- some ways NG, some ways LN? Do you know both, or neither?
And that brings up another issue right there -- the fact that the D&D alignment system is reducing something as complex as a person's morality to one of nine predetermined, predefined slots. Alignment in D&D is, by necessity, more of a rough guideline than a strict set of rules one must follow. So you're wanting to give a language for a rough guideline?
You also mention alignment languages breaking past cultural barriers... Language is, in no small part, a reflection of culture. A common language therefore presupposes a common culture. But, particularly in D&D, people can come from wildly different cultures and yet have the same language. This Mulhorandi warrior and this elf cleric from Evermeet have never had any contact with each other's culture before. Neither has ever before been outside their homeland. One comes from a land where freedom and creativity are held in the highest regard. The other comes from a culture that emphasizes honor and treats slavery as an acceptable practice. The only thing these two hypothetical NPCs have in common is their alignment. How does it make sense for them to automatically be able to communicate? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 23:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Wow, Latin is a secret, private language... guess Caesar would've loved that idea...
It was in medieval Europe. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 23:38:15
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Charles, you're clearly correct about the iron, incontrovertible morality of the Realms--but only if one chooses to view the D&D rules as providing the final, absolute definition of the FR in their every detail.
But me, I don't see it that way. The FR that exists in my head, that I like to think, read, and write about, is a far more complex and in some ways a more realistic world than the FR we wind up with when we filter it through the letter of every darn rule and stricture in the PH, DMG, etc.
It's necessary to simplify the FR when we want to game there. Otherwise, we wouldn't have a playable, enjoyable RPG. But I don't think we need to cling zealously to our every simplification and abstraction when we're not gaming but rather just imagining and discussing what this fascinating place would be like if we could really go there. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 01:18:06
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While I personally wouldn't use the concept of alignment languages, I can imagine a couple of different ways they might work.
One would be to liken alignment languages to jargon or specialized dialects. Imagine chaotic as "beatnik" or "hippie" speak vs. the "legalese" spoken by lawyers and businessmen.
While most people can usually get the gist of what is spoken, a skilled user that desires to conceal something, can use his jargon to obscure meaning and communicate with fellow speakers without the "squares" or the "lay persons" understanding what is really being said.
Other examples might be hip-hop slang or cockney rhyming slang.
Alternatively, and you don't really see this in western languages, but there is this concept of caste which you see in certain languages, especially in Indonesia and India.
As a feature of caste languages, there are special vocabularies and word declensions that are specific to each caste. This is not too disimilar to many European languages where words take special endings and forms depending on gender.
Come to think of it, Japanese is a little bit caste sensitive. And Japanese also has a feature where women speak a slightly different dialect than men do. Male children have to be taught not to speak like their mothers, not to use womanspeak.
I could see a fantasy language diverging based on alignment affiliation. I could imagine how, over time, alignment distinctions might become more and more gramatically divergent with specialized forms and vocabulary.
Alignment is no less arbitrary a reason for language to diverge than say gender, or caste. Some real world languages even distinguish between animate and inanimate. |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 01:38:49
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Let me add that I agree with the people that think that a fantasy world needs to be believable. I think the power of a fantasy world would be to be very realistic as a whole while at some essential points being a fantasy world.
As for Caesar and latin, he wrote messages for his message carriers during his campaign in Gaul in greek. Otherwise, if the Gauls caught and killed the messenger they would be able to read it if it were in latin. Greek would be much more of a challenge. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 02:07:40
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I use Alignment Languages to a very limited extent.
Basically only Outsiders and a limited number of Religious People.
I basically use it as a "Holy Language of Belief," or secret holy language as you will.
You can only learn how to speak your own Alignment Language. Tongues won't even translate them, and they are a spoke language only. Some requirements are being able to cast 4th level Divine Spells, or having True Believer as a feat, or being an Outsider with an Alignment Subtype. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 04:46:48
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Actually, it should be noted that I don't think Alignment Languages fit the Realms. The Realms AREN'T a place where Good is Good, Evil is Evil, and the Neutral Races are against the Good and Evil. The Alignment Languages instead fit the realm of Greyhawk where they were created for much better.
I'm just illustrating they might be thematically appropriate for a world where things are more defined like say...Dragonlance.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 07:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Wow, Latin is a secret, private language... guess Caesar would've loved that idea...
It was in medieval Europe.
Even in the middle ages it was no *secret* language. It was the language used by the church and every priest spoke it, so did a few people who learned in cloisters etc. Nuns spoke it yada yada. Martin Luther complained the arrogance of the church amongst other things. They read from the bible in Latin to a people who had no clue whatsoever what the hell these people were talking about saying Amen at the appropriate time.
I hardly call that secret. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 07:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Actually, it should be noted that I don't think Alignment Languages fit the Realms. The Realms AREN'T a place where Good is Good, Evil is Evil, and the Neutral Races are against the Good and Evil. The Alignment Languages instead fit the realm of Greyhawk where they were created for much better.
I'm just illustrating they might be thematically appropriate for a world where things are more defined like say...Dragonlance.
I'm gonna e-mail Margaret and ask her |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 18:55:59
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| I wonder how Chaotic Neutral sounds. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 23:11:46
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quote:
Originally posted by GungHo
I wonder how Chaotic Neutral sounds.
Ever listened to techno? It probably sounds like that |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Alignment Languages
