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TheRedBard
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 03:01:40
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Question good scribes:
Ive always been somewhat vexed by the persona of lady firehair. Every novel and online scroll tends to make her out to be a superficial somewhat laughable goddess. She however is a greater power, and I have been wondering why for some time.
Do you all feel she was created to be pretty much a shallow goddess of beauty and passion, only favoring the good looking and taking nothing seriously? Sure seems thats how she is in every source ive ever seen. I was flipping through "F&P" before and noticed the "love" portfolio. If she has that, wouldnt that make her almost without a doubt the most important deity of all? Mainly approaching this from the philosophy that without love there would be no goodness, be it love for family, king and country, the earth, or just love for yourself and fellow man (and women). If this is true certainly there couldnt be any wedding on toril without throwing a few prayers her way? Not to mention the tenants of other faiths...(id imagine followers of good deities believe they love and worship their particular god or goddess and said love is returned)
technically the same could be argued for passion and beauty as well. I really was somewhat surprised in the TOT novel where Sune was portrayed as heartless for not healing that fop Adon (though one could argue he was a lousy follower as he turned his back on his faith solely because he couldnt get a healing from his Goddess when no one else on Toril could either as they were all on the planet)
Before I right a novel here: Im not sure if im overthinking this or not, just something thats always bugged me. So what do you all think scribes? Is Lady Firehair alot deeper than given credit, or is she just there to be the token gameworld sex goddess?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2006 : 12:03:02
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quote:
Beauty is more than skin deep. It issues from the core of one's being and reveals one's true face to the world, fair or foul. Believe in romance, as true love will win over all. Follow your heart to your true destination. Love none more than yourself except Sune, and lose yourself in love of the Lady Firehair.
There indeed appears to be a more serious side to her, just her first weapon of choice is to charm, distract or otherwise befuddle by being flighty. She needs to have a serious side to have a Paladin order, even if her Paladins might be the least serious compared to most (if not all) other Paladin orders. Sume has gone against Shar and won. She should not be taken too lightly, though she might try to get you to. As for novels sometimes an author's interpertation relies on one aspect far more then the entire package. That again Sune is Chaotic so does not have to have a reason for doing or not doing something. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2006 : 15:56:34
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| I'd say you are correct in that she doesn't get the treatment she deserves. Although to be fair, I think the misconception is generally found in the novels rather than the source material. There are certainly followers of Sune who may be the shallow, vain, etc, but I think the prestige class for followers of Sune from Faiths and Pantheons (Sorry, can't remember the name, Heart... something...?) is a more accurate interpretation of the tenets of her faith. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2006 : 17:53:39
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Actually,
I don't consider her the Faerun sex goddess, that's Sharess and in a lesser extant, Lliira.
Sune is just about love and beauty. Yes, sex can be about love but for some reason a lot of people think that love = sex and that isn't really the case. :)
Sune would be about anyone who loves thier family, thier friends, themselves (not in that way! perverts!), etc. Also she would be worshipped by anyone who enjoys beauty, etc.
But again, Sune can be about sex but to me, she isn't THE sex goddess, that's Sharess and as I said, Lliira in a lesser extent. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2006 : 17:54:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
I think the prestige class for followers of Sune from Faiths and Pantheons (Sorry, can't remember the name, Heart... something...?)
Heartwarders, isn't it? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2006 : 18:11:39
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Sune isn't superficial. This is the start of her 'dogma' from Faiths & Avatars:quote:
Beauty is more than skin deep, say the Sunites; it issues from the core of one’s being and shows one’s fair (or foul) face to the world. The followers of Sune are believers in romance, true love winning over all, and following one’s heart to one’s true destination. Fated matches, impossible loves, and ugly ducklings becoming swans are all part of the teaching of Sune.
Vain priests like Adon of the Avatar Trilogy exist, but aren't typical.
The gods' listed 'portfolios' are brief summaries, not definitive guides. Sune is principally the goddess of romantic love, like Aphrodite; while she has to do with love in its deepest sense, i.e. the fundamental interconnectedness of all things, I don't think Sune is supposed to have sole 'custody' of all of that. |
Edited by - Faraer on 13 Mar 2006 18:16:00 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 01:22:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
But again, Sune can be about sex but to me, she isn't THE sex goddess, that's Sharess and as I said, Lliira in a lesser extent.
I would agree with that...
In fact, I'd say that "sex" as a aspect to be connected with a deity in the Realms -- would be something shared between all three deities... Sune, Sharess... and perhaps even Lliira.
Sune is about how love can lead you to the truest path of your heart's desire... sometimes even if you don't know it yet yourself. Love doesn't immediately equal sex, at least... not in the truest relationships built upon the love that Sune champions... but it is the beginning point of a sexual aspect for the Realms.
Sharess, the Dancing Lady, represents the notion of fulfillment through hedonism or other bodily and spiritual pleasures... in this case, sex. But it's important to note that some of these experiences can only be enjoyed "to their fullest" (as is the dogma of Sharess) when you've built it up from something else. In the case of sex, this is love, and the notions Sune embodies. Sex with someone you love is infinitely more fulfilling and sensually pleasurable than when it is just something transitory... something that is satisfied at that very moment.
From which, we come to Lliira... she respects the liberty of love and freedom... which through sex... is the end point. The love you share with someone whereupon no care or frustration would dare disturb. It is built upon the fulfillment of sensual desire, through Sharess, which is the result of truest love... through Sune.
-- Whoa! Never let it be said that love and sex aren't complicated.
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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TheRedBard
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 04:14:43
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ah yes I nearly forgot about Sharess. I though Lliira was dead or hiding or something or didnt the commonfolk of the realms figure that out? I would pity them if they are inadvertently worshiping Cyric still.
I played a male heartwarder in 2 games, other than to be a healer with a bit of a gimmick it sure didnt seem that useful, but was fun to roleplay. It was interesting to attempt to convince the party to accept the lips of rapture power as a buff! (especially the dwarf) Other than F&P that not 2 much useful information on Lady Firehair though is there? Seems odd treatment for one of the most powerful good deities, only Shaundakul seems to have less info of all the greater powers. |
"You're only given a little spark of madness. And if you lose that, you're nothing!"
-Robin Williams, 1978 HBO Special |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 04:31:57
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quote:
Originally posted by TheRedBard
ah yes I nearly forgot about Sharess. I though Lliira was dead or hiding or something or didnt the commonfolk of the realms figure that out? I would pity them if they are inadvertently worshiping Cyric still.
I played a male heartwarder in 2 games, other than to be a healer with a bit of a gimmick it sure didnt seem that useful, but was fun to roleplay. It was interesting to attempt to convince the party to accept the lips of rapture power as a buff! (especially the dwarf) Other than F&P that not 2 much useful information on Lady Firehair though is there? Seems odd treatment for one of the most powerful good deities, only Shaundakul seems to have less info of all the greater powers.
I think you are thinking of Waukeen, who allowed Lliira to hold some of her power and Waukeen was captured by Graz'zt for a time before she was freed from his power by a group of adventurers.
Sune has a huge write up in Faiths & Avatars, which is part of the 2e deity trilogy of F&A, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities. There's also info in the 1e and 2e campaign box sets and FR Adventures. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Mar 2006 04:33:30 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 06:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by TheRedBard
ah yes I nearly forgot about Sharess. I though Lliira was dead or hiding or something or didnt the commonfolk of the realms figure that out? I would pity them if they are inadvertently worshiping Cyric still.
I played a male heartwarder in 2 games, other than to be a healer with a bit of a gimmick it sure didnt seem that useful, but was fun to roleplay. It was interesting to attempt to convince the party to accept the lips of rapture power as a buff! (especially the dwarf) Other than F&P that not 2 much useful information on Lady Firehair though is there? Seems odd treatment for one of the most powerful good deities, only Shaundakul seems to have less info of all the greater powers.
I think you are thinking of Waukeen, who allowed Lliira to hold some of her power and Waukeen was captured by Graz'zt for a time before she was freed from his power by a group of adventurers.
Sune has a huge write up in Faiths & Avatars, which is part of the 2e deity trilogy of F&A, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities. There's also info in the 1e and 2e campaign box sets and FR Adventures.
He could mean Leira, it's pronounced the same way as Lliira, and Cyric stole her portfolio. |
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Edited by - Kajehase on 14 Mar 2006 06:25:29 |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 07:32:41
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[min/max on]The key to heartwarders, is that they are even more effective if originaly sorcerers, rather than clerics.[min/max off]
In terms of Sharess, she was once closely linked to Shar and almost had her portfolio completely engulfed, but was incarnated and rescued during the Time of Troubles by Sune.
She's definitely one of the more dynamic deities in the Realms. She began as a Mulhorandi goddess of cats, to a goddess of festhalls allowed into the rest of Faerun by Ao in a god-swap with Mask, to absorbing an elven goddess of dance and passionate love, to a companion of Shar as a goddess of dark pleaure, to her current incarnation as the goddess of sensual pleasure.
Her current dogma syncs very well with that espoused by the Society of Sensation. |
Edited by - Sarta on 14 Mar 2006 07:47:55 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 07:58:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
He could mean Leira, it's pronounced the same way as Lliira, and Cyric stole her portfolio.
Good point, that could be what he meant as well. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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TheRedBard
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 13:37:30
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| yeah thats what I meant |
"You're only given a little spark of madness. And if you lose that, you're nothing!"
-Robin Williams, 1978 HBO Special |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 17:57:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
to absorbing an elven goddess of dance and passionate love
Whut?  I seem to have missed something. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 18:38:11
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
to absorbing an elven goddess of dance and passionate love
Whut? I seem to have missed something.
Zandilar, a member of the now gone Aglarondan pantheon. What remains of it are some ancient ritual-sites, and the name taken by Alassra Silverhand. (Once again, though, as far as I can remember). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 18:40:22
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
to absorbing an elven goddess of dance and passionate love
Whut? I seem to have missed something.
He/she meant the Yuir deity of dance and passionate love. Most of the Yuir deities were absorbed by the elven deities, a drow deity or two, and some of the Faerun/Mulhorandi pantheon. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 18:50:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
to absorbing an elven goddess of dance and passionate love
Whut? I seem to have missed something.
He/she meant the Yuir deity of dance and passionate love. Most of the Yuir deities were absorbed by the elven deities, a drow deity or two, and some of the Faerun/Mulhorandi pantheon.
The Yuir? Any relation to the elves from the Yuirwood? In which case I'm very confused as the star elves live on, I don't know the exact mechanics of their 'home' now, whether it's on a different plane or not but how would this affect their gods, as I assume gods only really get absorbed as they die off (killed or from lack of worshippers?).
Apologies if any of those assumptions I've made are wrong, feel free to set me right :) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 21:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
to absorbing an elven goddess of dance and passionate love
Whut? I seem to have missed something.
He/she meant the Yuir deity of dance and passionate love. Most of the
Yuir deities were absorbed by the elven deities, a drow deity or two, and some of the Faerun/Mulhorandi pantheon.
The Yuir? Any relation to the elves from the Yuirwood? In which case I'm very confused as the star elves live on, I don't know the exact mechanics of their 'home' now, whether it's on a different plane or not but how would this affect their gods, as I assume gods only really get absorbed as they die off (killed or from lack of worshippers?).
Apologies if any of those assumptions I've made are wrong, feel free to set me right :)
Yes, these were local deities of the Yuirwood that have since been subsumed into mostly the elven pantheon but Bast/Sharess took one and others were taken by other deities while some of the Yuir deities are still themselves.
This doesn't really affect the star elves and thier demiplane. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 01:37:34
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Yes, I suppose I should have been more specific. Zandilar the Dancer was an Elven deity worshiped by the Elves of Yuirwood. She was the deity of dance and passionate love that burns hot and quickly, but eventually dies out (as opposed to Hanali's portfolio of beauty and romantic love).
As the Yuir came under attack by drow, Zandilar attempted to seduce Vhaeraun to possibly gain information or to turn him against Lolth. This attempt failed and Vhaeraun imprisoned her avatar and attempted to seize her divine essence. Bast, in her travels, came upon this, distracted Vhaeraun, and allowed Zandilar to escape.
In gratitude and due to being severely weakened, Zandilar voluntarily merged her essence with Bast who helped the Yuir in their battle with the drow for a while.
Source: Powers and Pantheons -- page 52. |
Edited by - Sarta on 17 Mar 2006 01:38:56 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 08:48:44
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| I`ve read the simbul`s gift, and it states that some of the yuir gods are still themselves, including Zandilar. So how could she have been subsumed by Sune? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 16:12:49
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
I`ve read the simbul`s gift, and it states that some of the yuir gods are still themselves, including Zandilar. So how could she have been subsumed by Sune?
Not Sune, but Bast who became Sharess. :)
And I guess it happened after that novel since the details were originally in Demihuman Deities, Powers & Pantheons, and Faiths & Avatars from 2e. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 17:56:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
I`ve read the simbul`s gift, and it states that some of the yuir gods are still themselves, including Zandilar. So how could she have been subsumed by Sune?
Not Sune, but Bast who became Sharess. :)
And I guess it happened after that novel since the details were originally in Demihuman Deities, Powers & Pantheons, and Faiths & Avatars from 2e.
I`m confused now. Do you mean that Bast subsumed Zandilar after the events in the book? That doesn`t make sense, since the book takes place in 1368 DR. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 19:08:32
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
I`ve read the simbul`s gift, and it states that some of the yuir gods are still themselves, including Zandilar. So how could she have been subsumed by Sune?
Not Sune, but Bast who became Sharess. :)
And I guess it happened after that novel since the details were originally in Demihuman Deities, Powers & Pantheons, and Faiths & Avatars from 2e.
I`m confused now. Do you mean that Bast subsumed Zandilar after the events in the book? That doesn`t make sense, since the book takes place in 1368 DR.
Then it's up to Eric to give us a date on when this happened since Demihuman Deities and Powers and Pantheons came out after that novel, and so it looks like it was retconned from the events in that novel.
Zandilar voluntarily merged with Bast and from the way this is worded, it was sometime before the fall of Myth Drannor. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 21 Mar 2006 19:12:38 |
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Sune and the portfolio of love
