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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 03:27:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
And my response is...
None of that applies to the Chosen whom can work around all that. Also, frankly their stats are that Julius Caesar is a dunce headed commoner compared to them. I don't bring game stats in usually but they represent that the Chosen are as far above normal human beings as humans are above ant.
What??? comparing the nature of the chosen as being as different as a normal human is to an ant, is a little far fetched even for a far fetched fantasy setting dicussion. come on man, I know you have at least checked these guys out. Even the chosen can be slain, it has been referenced several places in the past. I think your comparison is a little off of the food chain. powerful yes, immortal no. read elminsters daughter, even the old mage is getting old.
Mace, I am with you my friend. I too enjoyed the RoTA trilogy. I just keep in mind that every author will portray a character differently. However, I think Elminster and the other chosen were portrayed a little weak in this case, which brings a lot of resentment from other realms fans. |
Edited by - scererar on 14 Apr 2006 03:33:40 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 08:42:59
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Originally posted by Carion Hunter
Inspiring men through natural means make it a very difficult thing for the opponent to handle.
Uhm, no? One fear spell, a bad roll, and it's all gone. Common foot soldiers aren't going to have an amazing will save.
quote:
Hence, spies are much more valuable and better than scrying and divining.
Spies can be enspelled, charmed, be captured and have their minds messed up with. Oh, and they might be fooled by illusions. So much for that, hmm?
You aren't really thinking in terms of Realms magic, are you? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 18:35:50
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*sarcasm ON* I never saw any character in any novel do a roll... much less fumble. *sarcasm OFF*
Personally, I think heroes should do stuff that matters, to anyone. For a child the youth who fetches his kite back from a tree is a hero. Certainly that is not the type of hero you can actually write a novel or a trilogy about, but it doesn't have to be immensely BIG.
RSE are important, to a degree. Unfortunately they seem, on occassion, only to push forward new 'marketing ploys'. Sure, such things (RSE) do and must happen, but is it what I want to read all the time? No.
As for the character sharing: if *I* create a character, give him or her life and breath I do not want anyone else mess around with it! It happened to me once and I was far from pleased with the result.
With a shared universe the situation is far more difficult, of course. If WotC offered Elaine Cunningham a huge amount of money to write, say, a Drizzt novel, I don't know what I'd do... after all I'd be feeding a family with my income...
A gentleman's agreement is a great thing, if all parties involved accept it.
Blood and tears of the mighty is fun, on occassion... and too much of a good thing is weakening the entire structure.
Would I enjoy Drizzt changing? Hell yes... it takes away some comic book effects the entire saga has. People who don't uunderstand that should read Frank Miller's excellent Dark Knight Returns. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2006 : 21:26:30
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What if the kite is pivotal to the survival of the universe and the tree it's stuck in is one of those evil treant critters? Now we're talking trilogy!
I can see it now. The hero is a halfling with a striped shirt and a pet beagle... |
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Carion Hunter
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 01:57:05
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quote:
Uhm, no? One fear spell, a bad roll, and it's all gone. Common foot soldiers aren't going to have an amazing will save.
Perhaps, but fear is in the eye of the one who holds it. A truly inspired soldier will not be daunted by fear or anything, so long as they have something to believe and have faith in and believe in it to the utmost, nothing can stop them.
quote:
Spies can be enspelled, charmed, be captured and have their minds messed up with. Oh, and they might be fooled by illusions. So much for that, hmm?
Spies can be of different types and species. In terms of human spies, the best among the lot are the "deadly" ones, such spies are highly trained to "Spec-Op"/master assassin level and with such a charming smile and figure that it swoons the enemy, such spies are expert at mind games and know how to play "cards" with the enemy. Never play "cards" with them.
Other spies can be animal spies, by looking through the eye of the animal. Spies can be insects and spiders or fleas and similarly, look through their eyes to spy on someone. Usually, such insectoid and arachnoid spies are great for sneaking into the supposedly secure areas to spy on foes.
Spies' loyalties must be secured with high pay, inspiration and making them believe in the cause. Against illusions, well, even undead spiders and insects or ethereal undead can serve as valuable spies as they are not fooled by illusions. The best Undead spy to use would be a vampire, as in Khelben's hit squad where there is a LE vampire in service.
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You aren't really thinking in terms of Realms magic, are you?
*chuckles* Actually, relying on too much magic is not good as it creates a dependency habit that is difficult to overcome and seniles the thinking mind, especially in terms of mages who are addicted to magic too much. Such was encountered in my campaigns, and I often encourage my players to employ and think of creative strategies than rely on magic which opponents can counter if they are of master level.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 02:03:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
What if the kite is pivotal to the survival of the universe and the tree it's stuck in is one of those evil treant critters? Now we're talking trilogy!
I can see it now. The hero is a halfling with a striped shirt and a pet beagle...
The Day the Kite got Stuck, part one of the epic Kite-aclysmic trilogy 
The Kite of Doom
Kite's Revenge
ROFL |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 02:10:21
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Charles made the comment that the chosen are supposed to be geniuses who are so far ahead of humans that they make Julius Ceasar look like a moron. Is there any actual evidence showing this. Is there something that shows them pushing the bounds of accepted knowledge in a way that any archmage couldnt do. If they are statted to be so brilliant I would like to see them always creating new things and experimenting etc. For me a genius is someone like Davinci who developed knowledge in anatomy, engineering and art that no-one else had even thought of. Is that how they are portrayed in various source books or are simply very knowledgeable of preexisting work. People (loosely speaking) that I could see a being a genius in FR include Iolum (turned himslef into elder brain), larloch (new method of lichhood), samaster (turning dragons into dracoliches) etc.
Cheers
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TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 02:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
And my response is...
None of that applies to the Chosen whom can work around all that. Also, frankly their stats are that Julius Caesar is a dunce headed commoner compared to them. I don't bring game stats in usually but they represent that the Chosen are as far above normal human beings as humans are above ant.
Oh My! What an outrageous statement! If Julius Caesar cannot be compared to them, then even Julius Caesar respected idol, Alexander The Great is also nothing compared to them despite all of their great accomplishments. What's next?
The Chosen are still mortal though the Chosen sometimes in their euphoria forgot the main cold harsh fact that they are still mortal. For Mystra or even Lord Ao or some mighty titan can squish them with a finger till the Chosen become the ant. The Chosen can be slain and identically, humans and ants can also be slain as them three are mortal.
Ant, human, chosen, just by dealing grievious mortal injury to them is enough to send them to heaven, all are mortal and the Chosen are not even a single step above an ant or mortal. In my opinion, even the smallest ant is better than the Chosen of Mystra.
quote:
Mace, I am with you my friend. I too enjoyed the RoTA trilogy. I just keep in mind that every author will portray a character differently. However, I think Elminster and the other chosen were portrayed a little weak in this case, which brings a lot of resentment from other realms fans.
Amen, I am with you guys as well! I also enjoyed the RotA Trilogy as well.
Yup, Every author have the right to portray a character differently, if he/she were to follow the rules and regulations, this will seriously limit the authors' imagination and creativity, and hence reduce the novel's novelty and attraction.
I think the fires burning in some realms' fans is that the raw cold truth about the mortality of the Chosen is a bit hard to accept. |
May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 02:33:54
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quote:
If they are statted to be so brilliant I would like to see them always creating new things and experimenting etc. For me a genius is someone like Davinci who developed knowledge in anatomy, engineering and art that no-one else had even thought of.
Geez, thanks for mentioning Da Vinci name, for I admire his work immensely.
quote:
People (loosely speaking) that I could see a being a genius in FR include Iolum (turned himslef into elder brain), larloch (new method of lichhood), samaster (turning dragons into dracoliches) etc.
That's right, geniuses should be ones that had explored the fringes of magic/science and developed novel never seen before techniques that are wholly and revolutionarily different from established ones. I do also admire Larloch and Sammaster, both are pioneers.
quote:
Personally, I think heroes should do stuff that matters, to anyone. For a child the youth who fetches his kite back from a tree is a hero. Certainly that is not the type of hero you can actually write a novel or a trilogy about, but it doesn't have to be immensely BIG.
A child that fetch his kite back from a tree is a hero? I think the child displayed perseverance and independence in doing such an act, it is not heroism. A true hero is one who fervently/zealously fights for beliefs and causes that are just and righteous and not fighting for his own ends but for others, a hero is one that had known love, sorrow, joy, pain, humility and fear, and being able to bear them in stride without faltering in his belief and cause is a true hero in my belief. Huma of the Lance is an example.
I agree that the events that prove the hero's heroism need not be big, but at least must be something that is worthy of the hero fighting for it. And that something does not mean fighting to get a kite, a beautiful lady or save a friend.
quote:
RSE are important, to a degree. Unfortunately they seem, on occassion, only to push forward new 'marketing ploys'. Sure, such things (RSE) do and must happen, but is it what I want to read all the time? No.
Sometimes, some events in the realms will inevitably lead to RSE's and occassionally more RSEs and it's inevitable but they do bring about changes for the realms and keep the realms from going stagnant. I would rather face through the RSEs than yell and kick about in annoyance and frustration about why they must happen.
quote:
As for the character sharing: if *I* create a character, give him or her life and breath I do not want anyone else mess around with it! It happened to me once and I was far from pleased with the result.
With a shared universe the situation is far more difficult, of course. If WotC offered Elaine Cunningham a huge amount of money to write, say, a Drizzt novel, I don't know what I'd do... after all I'd be feeding a family with my income...
Very true indeed, one cannot allow pride to blind oneself to the needs of family and foodbowl. I think if WotC High Com commands it, even authors must accept it despite how much they don't like the command. In life, there is no order or command that is just nice or accepting to oneself.
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Blood and tears of the mighty is fun, on occassion... and too much of a good thing is weakening the entire structure
Weakening the structure? Hmm...yes, sometimes the structure must be weakened to allow greater and stronger upgrades to be made to the structure. It takes a revolutionary rude awakening to better something to become even better even though the experience can be bitter and hard to accept.
quote:
And my response is...
None of that applies to the Chosen whom can work around all that. Also, frankly their stats are that Julius Caesar is a dunce headed commoner compared to them. I don't bring game stats in usually but they represent that the Chosen are as far above normal human beings as humans are above ant.
Unacceptable statement and simply outrageous. An insult to Julius Caesar. No matter how great the accomplishments of the Chosen are, they are like every normal human, ant and any mortal creature on the world, they are all still mortal and vulnerable to the scourges of mortality. Even Julius Caesar and Alexander could not deny their mortality.
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Edited by - silvermage on 15 Apr 2006 02:35:05 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 02:54:25
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quote:
Unacceptable statement and simply outrageous. An insult to Julius Caesar. No matter how great the accomplishments of the Chosen are, they are like every normal human, ant and any mortal creature on the world, they are all still mortal and vulnerable to the scourges of mortality. Even Julius Caesar and Alexander could not deny their mortality.
Well good, I hate the butcher and consider him a glamourized monster. Nevertheless, I can think of no way in Hell I wouldn't choose the least of the Chosen over Julius.
They'd tear him to shreds tactically and I utterly stand by my statement that they are NOT even close to being human anymore after their immense ages. Every appearence reinforces they haven't felt like 'humans' for centuries.
The Chosen are the Defenders of Magic on the Realms and have interpreted their mission as further to defend the planet from barbarianism and the abundant power of evil's rapaciousness. They are champions of civilization but they are NOT remotely human and should be considered old style Demigods (before the "Demi" was lost and demigods became minor gods)
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 15 Apr 2006 02:56:25 |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 03:32:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The Chosen are the Defenders of Magic on the Realms and have interpreted their mission as further to defend the planet from barbarianism and the abundant power of evil's rapaciousness. They are champions of civilization but they are NOT remotely human and should be considered old style Demigods (before the "Demi" was lost and demigods became minor gods)
Demi-gods? Then they should be writing and filing appeals to Lord Ao for a demi-god position: Demi-God of Magic Protectors and Magic Guardians. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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TymoraChosen
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 03:37:23
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quote:
Well good, I hate the butcher and consider him a glamourized monster. Nevertheless, I can think of no way in Hell I wouldn't choose the least of the Chosen over Julius.
Julius and Alexander brought order and philosophy to the realms on Earth. I say they are one step above the Chosen, no denying it.
quote:
They'd tear him to shreds tactically and I utterly stand by my statement that they are NOT even close to being human anymore after their immense ages. Every appearence reinforces they haven't felt like 'humans' for centuries.
Actually, they can never deny the truth they are still mortal. Afterall the truth is mightier than anything and shall prevail no matter what happens.
quote:
The Chosen are the Defenders of Magic on the Realms and have interpreted their mission as further to defend the planet from barbarianism and the abundant power of evil's rapaciousness. They are champions of civilization but they are NOT remotely human and should be considered old style Demigods (before the "Demi" was lost and demigods became minor gods)
What?????? One question, are they considered Innocent of their charges? Nope, they also had indirectly caused loss of life and despair to the masses in their wars against that evil and this evil. As to demi-gods, I must reinforce my point that they are still mortal no matter how powerful they are for they cannot deny the scourge of time on them. |
May tymora's blessings be heaped on all |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 03:37:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Unacceptable statement and simply outrageous. An insult to Julius Caesar. No matter how great the accomplishments of the Chosen are, they are like every normal human, ant and any mortal creature on the world, they are all still mortal and vulnerable to the scourges of mortality. Even Julius Caesar and Alexander could not deny their mortality.
Well good, I hate the butcher and consider him a glamourized monster. Nevertheless, I can think of no way in Hell I wouldn't choose the least of the Chosen over Julius.
They'd tear him to shreds tactically and I utterly stand by my statement that they are NOT even close to being human anymore after their immense ages. Every appearence reinforces they haven't felt like 'humans' for centuries.
The Chosen are the Defenders of Magic on the Realms and have interpreted their mission as further to defend the planet from barbarianism and the abundant power of evil's rapaciousness. They are champions of civilization but they are NOT remotely human and should be considered old style Demigods (before the "Demi" was lost and demigods became minor gods)
They are the champs of magic, hence Mystra's Chosen. Btw there are also Chosen of other deities, and to coin Fzoul a defender of civilization is um...well...not right. Oboult appears to be Gruumsh's Chosen, well he wants an orc civilization so your statement might be true to some degree.
As for Julius being a butcher, it (as discussed in the villains thread) is always (ALWAYS) a matter of perspective. You have to take the good with the bad of a person, and if the Simbul wiping out several dozen red wizards isn't butchery also, after all them red wizards never really did have a fair chance at winning or even seeing the finish line, I don't know what butchery implies.
Try to put things into perspective, Charles, you do everyone a favor, first and most importantly you. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 04:26:35
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I'm glad Julius and Alexander found time to do that when senselessly butchering innocent between innocent peoples. As for Alex, he's what I like to call "A man who looted better cultures than his."
But this isn't the historical revisionism thread.
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Actually, they can never deny the truth they are still mortal. Afterall the truth is mightier than anything and shall prevail no matter what happens.
The Gods are Mortal as well as in "they can be killed." I wouldn't call them human.
quote:
What?????? One question, are they considered Innocent of their charges? Nope, they also had indirectly caused loss of life and despair to the masses in their wars against that evil and this evil. As to demi-gods, I must reinforce my point that they are still mortal no matter how powerful they are for they cannot deny the scourge of time on them.
No offense but if not for the Chosen then I imagine Faerun would currently be in its dark age. The whole point of the Chosen Of Mystra (Thanks Mace) as depicted is that they're trying to carve a halfway decent set of rules, laws, civilization, and ideas from the wild and untamed savage lands of Faerun.
Frankly, there's a reason Myth Drannor is remembered as the Athens of the Realms really rather than just a monster infected pit. Elminster by his actions resulted in other races being exposed to Elvish learning and a grand exchange of ideas.
quote:
As for Julius being a butcher, it (as discussed in the villains thread) is always (ALWAYS) a matter of perspective. You have to take the good with the bad of a person, and if the Simbul wiping out several dozen red wizards isn't butchery also, after all them red wizards never really did have a fair chance at winning or even seeing the finish line, I don't know what butchery implies.
I'm sorry, not all of us actually just accept the regurgitated history that is causally tossed aside by faulty scholarship and years of Roman Empire worshipping drek that has invested academia since really the Roman Empire fell. As a historian, I think its important to try and validate the actions of Brutus and others whom were attempting to preserve the Roman Republic against a lunatic with delusions of grandeur who began the slow and inevitable decline of the most civilized state in the world into a parody of its former self.
As a historian, I feel that my perspective is a little clearer than yours Mace.
But again, this isn't the forum to discuss this. I'm not debating Julius was an effective General and a Brilliant politician. Whether his actions served the cause of the Roman political-economic body though is highly contestable once you get past the hero worship most historians foster on the parasite.
Bluntly, I'm halfway done with my book for my Doctorate (which I obviously will revise and continue research for as I move through graduate school towards my Doctorate) that Julius Caesar is indirectly the cause of the Dark Age. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 15 Apr 2006 04:30:52 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 04:54:38
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| No offense, frankly, and bluntly.. we are discussing heroes of the realms, not our own civilization. comparing julius ceasar to the chosen, is like comparing apples to oranges. it's great you are working towards a doctorate, but I think you are getting defensive and just bringing out your "big guns" so to speak, to intimidate. your regurgitated history theory is from the norm of society, so please forgive us lowly ones for not readily adopting your ideas. I for one am ready to get back to "the heroes of the realms" thread that you started and has been very interesting so far. |
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MaskedOne
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 05:11:17
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In response to an earlier comment about if the Chosen are such geniuses then they should constantly be creating and inventing.
quote:
Text from:
pdf, The Seven Sisters, pg. 41
The Simbul's wide experience and her almost instinctive feel for magic not only allow her to anticipate what spells lesser wizards will hurl before they begin to cast them, but enable her to hold to her own personal goal of devising a new spell, or improving an existing one, once every moon.
My quote may be slightly off because I had to do this word for word flipping between two screens but the basic text is from an older sourcebook. One new or improved magic, once a moon. Moon typically translates to a month if memory serves. Make of the data what you will, but just because novels don't show a thing doesn't mean it isn't present. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 05:25:59
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I agree honestly. I was defending my position of Julius sucking not my realms position.
Also, frankly, Julius is irrelevant to the discussion since its not about 'How is Julius Caesar like the Chosen" but that the Chosen are superhumanly intelligent
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Acolyte
Australia
33 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 05:43:18
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MaskedOne
Thankyou. That was effectively what I was looking for and as I dont have Seven Sisters I didnt have that information. I did actually think of the Symbul as a genius seeing as I had read somewhere that she has a compulsive drive to master more and more magic. You wrote pdf,seven sisters, does that mean it is available for download?
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MaskedOne
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 05:50:02
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rpgnow.com provides it for about $5. I got it from there a couple weeks ago. I listed the above as pdf simply because I don't know if the page count changes with the printed version and I was stating the page Adobe had not whatever the scanned text had.
Scanned Text had it at pg. 40 |
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StromLancer
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 06:44:03
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Ahem, sorry forgive my interruption for answering the call to arms from my fellow comrades in this forum.
quote:
The Gods are Mortal as well as in "they can be killed." I wouldn't call them human.
That was when they were back on the mortal plane when they were banished by Lord Ao for their sins. But now they are in the heavens, they are more than a mortal. Challenging a god or titan to the death is an entirely different thing compared to challenging the Chosen to a death duel.
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No offense but if not for the Chosen then I imagine Faerun would currently be in its dark age. The whole point of the Chosen Of Mystra (Thanks Mace) as depicted is that they're trying to carve a halfway decent set of rules, laws, civilization, and ideas from the wild and untamed savage lands of Faerun.
Actually, the lands of Faerun would had eventually calmed down and set up their own laws even without the Chosen aid for there are prospective candidates who can do it better than the Chosen. The Cycle of Order and Chaos is always turning, Chaos would naturally be replaced by Order and Order will naturally and eventually be replaced by Chaos and so on.
The Chosen of Mystra main responsibility is to ensure magic lives on and magical knowledge doesn't perish but this does not mean they have free divine license to kill or free license to act like a vigilante to police and change and order the realms to their liking. Honestly, the laws, rules, civilization of the realms is to be determined by the people of the realms and not by the whims and likes of the Chosen. I feel that the Chosen are simply ordering the laws, rules, civilization of the realms to their own personal preference, which this I insist they have no tacit license from heaven to do that.
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Frankly, there's a reason Myth Drannor is remembered as the Athens of the Realms really rather than just a monster infected pit. Elminster by his actions resulted in other races being exposed to Elvish learning and a grand exchange of ideas.
Which lead to the decline of the Tel'Quessir race and illegal spread of dangerous dark knowledge(magical and otherwise) to the far corners of the realms. Also, the glory of Myth Drannor was short-term, for El did not forsaw the long-term consequences of his own actions-that is the decline and decay(moral, social, political and otherwise) of the city. In fact, the city was better off before the coming of El and the death of the earlier Coronal of Cormanthyr.
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quote:
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Text from:
pdf, The Seven Sisters, pg. 41
The Simbul's wide experience and her almost instinctive feel for magic not only allow her to anticipate what spells lesser wizards will hurl before they begin to cast them, but enable her to hold to her own personal goal of devising a new spell, or improving an existing one, once every moon.
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Frankly speaking, being a genius doesn't mean inventing new spells or improving existing new ones. It is being able to adapt to unexpected situations, being flexible and reacting to the situation appropriately by using whatever meager resources available to one and bending the situation to one's own advantage while ensuring high chance of victory for oneself can one be really considered a genius. A genius is simply more than pioneering new spells or techniques, it is more than that. |
Lead the war fate commands you to!
...but are you fighting the true enemy? |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 07:25:10
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quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
Yup, Every author have the right to portray a character differently, if he/she were to follow the rules and regulations, this will seriously limit the authors' imagination and creativity, and hence reduce the novel's novelty and attraction.
You would really, really like browsing Fanfiction.net, I think. You'd also belong right with the fanbrats who scream "ZOMG u r oppressing my IMAGINASHun!1" when you tell them they have got facts wrong, portray characters OOC, or haven't done their research.
No, authors don't have a "right" to portray characters differently when the characters don't belong to them, or are their original creations. Yeah, they can do it and get green-lighted by WotC novel department, but said novel department isn't exactly a paragon of consistency or good communication; frankly, I think some of their editors know about the Realms less than truly devoted fans (of whom I'm not one, but I can still spot boo-boos in novels, which is telling, isn't it?). Authors should expect to be called on it if they commit character assassination or mangle existing characters (which, come to think of it, is a bit rude, no? I don't think very many writers like it when their creations are so mangled that only the name remains recognixable).
Good fanfic authors study the established characters' behavior, speech patterns, appearances in the canon. RotA is little more than glorified bad fanfiction. Unfortunately, the arbiter of what is canon -- i.e. WotC -- has never been a bastion of quality.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 08:17:49
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That is quite enough Winterfox!  Tone it down... or I'll have to ask you to refrain from posting in this scroll any further if you cannot post in a civil manner.
Otherwise it'll be sealed.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 08:26:35
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Obviously, I think we disagree strongly about Myth Drannor. It's the only way for Elves to survive honestly by its example (admittedly not its decline). Elvish isolation only dooms them to destruction.
I also think that I can sum up the rest of my opinions with two simple arguments
* The Chosen (of all stripes) are as close to gods as any mortals can be.
* The Chosen of Mystra have become the defining servants of peace and justice in the Realms
* If not for the Chosen (and the PCs) then all of Faerun would plunge into eternal darkness with no escape.
I don't believe Law and Chaos is cyclic in the Realms at all.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 08:43:19
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quote:
If not for the Chosen (and the PCs) then all of Faerun would plunge into eternal darkness with no escape.
Could you give some arguments for this statement ? It seems quite an exaggeration, the chosens don't exist from the beginning of the Realms and the Realms were not a Dark Age before they came around. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 11:40:33
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Yes, but the Lords of DarknessTM haven't been as organized or well developed as they are now either.
* The Red Wizards
* The Zhentarim
* The Netherese
* The Maugalymn (I know its spelled wrong)
Frankly, any one of these groups has the potential to conquer all of Faerun. This isn't even bringing in plenty of the lesser evils. Let's face it Gargauth may be only a demigod but could well suceed in his plan to pull all of Toril into the Nine Hells.
We can only be happy that the Cult of the Dragon will probably be soon no more.
BTW---Thank you all whom have participated in this thread. Your well informed opinions and wonderful expertise in the Realms have made many a night. You've all been an immeasurable pleasure to read. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 12:42:06
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Oh, btw, if you take 2nd edition phaerimm and compare them to your 'average' Chosen. Most of them would have eaten any single one of them for breakfast, once the silver fire was expended. If I remember correctly they started at wizard level 30+. If you take that into account into 3.5 rules that would make them some 30+ class levels of Sorc PLUS their monster ECL. These critters are TOUGH!
The average Myth Drannan (?) phaerimm was about lvl 36 wiz or so, and they were in constant warfare with the rest of them critters in the city. So even if the Anauroch phaerimm didn't have much time to practice against any other mob or whathaveyous, they still had r5oughly 2000 years to practice their trade, so one can assume that these beings are on par with the Myth Drannan phaerimm.
We are talking about monsters that have a CR of 40+, with SR of at least 35+. If you take a basic lvl 40 2nd edition phaerimm and convert him into 3.5 you will get frightening results! 20 levels sorc, 10 or more levels Acm, PLUS 10 or so epic levels. Its CR would be something like 45, plus a SR of 55.
Under these circumstances I would like to see the weave user who actually could slay a phaerimm. These guys were meant to be tougher than it gets, heck only a couple hundred of them managed to wipe out Netheril!
So if the Chosen were akin to demigods (which they are not), same could be said of the phaerimm.
Thanks, over and...well...cheers. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 16:16:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Obviously, I think we disagree strongly about Myth Drannor. It's the only way for Elves to survive honestly by its example (admittedly not its decline). Elvish isolation only dooms them to destruction.
I also think that I can sum up the rest of my opinions with two simple arguments
* The Chosen (of all stripes) are as close to gods as any mortals can be.
* The Chosen of Mystra have become the defining servants of peace and justice in the Realms
* If not for the Chosen (and the PCs) then all of Faerun would plunge into eternal darkness with no escape.
I don't believe Law and Chaos is cyclic in the Realms at all.
I actually agree with you here Charles. I have read all of the novels pertaining to the chosen (that I am aware of), and yes there are several references of them talking about having to "saving the realms, once again". I am not sure if there would be a dark age without them, but they do play important roles. |
Edited by - scererar on 15 Apr 2006 16:18:21 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 20:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Obviously, I think we disagree strongly about Myth Drannor. It's the only way for Elves to survive honestly by its example (admittedly not its decline). Elvish isolation only dooms them to destruction.
I also think that I can sum up the rest of my opinions with two simple arguments
* The Chosen (of all stripes) are as close to gods as any mortals can be.
* The Chosen of Mystra have become the defining servants of peace and justice in the Realms
* If not for the Chosen (and the PCs) then all of Faerun would plunge into eternal darkness with no escape.
I don't believe Law and Chaos is cyclic in the Realms at all.
I actually agree with you here Charles. I have read all of the novels pertaining to the chosen (that I am aware of), and yes there are several references of them talking about having to "saving the realms, once again". I am not sure if there would be a dark age without them, but they do play important roles.
They were boasting. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 22:48:32
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Well honestly, its questionable whether or not the Realms are already in the Dark Ages.
Cormyr and the Moonshaes are the only "civilized" kingdoms around you know.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Heroes in Novels
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