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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Apr 2006 : 22:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well honestly, its questionable whether or not the Realms are already in the Dark Ages.
Cormyr and the Moonshaes are the only "civilized" kingdoms around you know.
The only kingdoms, yes, but a lot of the Realms does perfectly fine as city-states, with the first signs of a republic in Luruar/The Silver Marches. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2006 : 18:35:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well honestly, its questionable whether or not the Realms are already in the Dark Ages.
Cormyr and the Moonshaes are the only "civilized" kingdoms around you know.
The only kingdoms, yes, but a lot of the Realms does perfectly fine as city-states, with the first signs of a republic in Luruar/The Silver Marches.
My thoughts exactly 
Charles, you don't see Waterdeep as a "civilized" setting? Please bear in mind, that in many respects, Waterdeep is easily equal to a small-sized kingdom in any other D&D setting. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2006 : 19:37:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Carion Hunter
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Uhm, no? One fear spell, a bad roll, and it's all gone. Common foot soldiers aren't going to have an amazing will save.
Perhaps, but fear is in the eye of the one who holds it. A truly inspired soldier will not be daunted by fear or anything, so long as they have something to believe and have faith in and believe in it to the utmost, nothing can stop them.
quote:
Spies can be enspelled, charmed, be captured and have their minds messed up with. Oh, and they might be fooled by illusions. So much for that, hmm?
Spies can be of different types and species. In terms of human spies, the best among the lot are the "deadly" ones, such spies are highly trained to "Spec-Op"/master assassin level and with such a charming smile and figure that it swoons the enemy, such spies are expert at mind games and know how to play "cards" with the enemy. Never play "cards" with them.
Other spies can be animal spies, by looking through the eye of the animal. Spies can be insects and spiders or fleas and similarly, look through their eyes to spy on someone. Usually, such insectoid and arachnoid spies are great for sneaking into the supposedly secure areas to spy on foes.
Spies' loyalties must be secured with high pay, inspiration and making them believe in the cause. Against illusions, well, even undead spiders and insects or ethereal undead can serve as valuable spies as they are not fooled by illusions. The best Undead spy to use would be a vampire, as in Khelben's hit squad where there is a LE vampire in service.
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You aren't really thinking in terms of Realms magic, are you?
*chuckles* Actually, relying on too much magic is not good as it creates a dependency habit that is difficult to overcome and seniles the thinking mind, especially in terms of mages who are addicted to magic too much. Such was encountered in my campaigns, and I often encourage my players to employ and think of creative strategies than rely on magic which opponents can counter if they are of master level.
Firstly, I must ask whether you play D&D or some other game system, since your comments seem to blatantly ignore many D&D game rules. It doesn’t really matter how brave or tough you are when you roll a failed WILL save. It doesn’t matter how “inspired” or “motivated” you are, you failed your save and must face consequences accordingly. Let’s say your “inspired” soldiers face a dragon, and if they fail their saves, they RUN. Period.
I am a bit confused about the fact that you seem to constantly refer to “real world” military tactics and use military terminology as if it applied everywhere. I remind you that we are talking about a fantasy role-playing setting here, and that it is being governed by the aforementioned D&D (or in some cases other) gaming system rules. While RW military background might give you a good picture of how military works in a modern, non-fictional world without magic, it doesn’t give you any better sense how to run medieval battles powered by arcane and divine magic - the game rules and reading a lot of related fantasy fiction and medieval military history and applying them ALL to the setting, however, does.
I am aware that “The Art of War” is still being used by the modern military, but, as noted here on this thread, Sun Tzu did NOT live in a fantasy world where battles might be resolved solely through Arcane or Divine magic. Besides, having read the book, I must note here that it mostly contains broad generalizations and simplifications (at least IMHO) such as “When your enemy expects you to retreat, attack.”
I agree with you that assassins probably make the best spies, since they have high Disguise skills, and have access to many good “espionage” spells. Other good candidates are also Rogue/Wizards or, even better, Rogue/Sorcerers or Spymasters. But I see that the best spies ALWAYS make use of magic, one way or the other. Otherwise, they might be fooled with illusions (Hallucinatory Terrain, False Vision, Mirage Arcana, etc.). A wise Battlemaster also hires some Diviners who might see through such misleading spells. Likewise, your enemies might use similar measures too. Without either Arcane or Divine magic, there is no such thing as “Grade A Combat Data” on a fantasy battlefield, because your enemy might use such spells anytime (even a bunch of Mass Invisibility or Veil spells to disappear or change their apperarance to match YOUR soldiers). While it is true that you can protect yourself from scrying, and even use wards to send monsters to any who try to scry you, it is still worth the risk. You risk yourself leaving yourself vulnerable to your enemy if you stick to “mundane means” only.
If you can secure your spies’ loyalties, all the better, but how are you going to ensure that those masters of “mind games” (your term) are truly 100% loyal to you, unless you use mind-control magic (or psionics ;).
You also refer to “using too much magic” being addictive. Apparently this is a house rule in your campaigns, and it is fine with me (my gaming group also uses similar house rules with spells and potions.) I just don’t like the fact that you imply that all of us others should also feel about magic that way. Your point of view is not supported by the official D&D game rules or the FR setting (at least to my meager knowledge.)
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
Edited by - Asgetrion on 16 Apr 2006 19:38:20 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2006 : 22:40:33
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Writing novels is an entirely different ballgame than writing D&D adventures. To say that novels have to adhere to the D&D rules is ... well ... laughable (for lack of a better term).
In all the time I've been reading FR and DL and Ravenloft novels I never really bothered with game stats and the like. Things do work differently in novels. Inspired soldiers will run from the dragon in game or novel, if I am the DM. Sorry saves work on most things but in a novel... no wait a minute, I can just see it.
When Frodo finally decided to keep the ring in Mount Doom, Tolkien prolly rolled a Will-save for the little fella, modified by a -12 circumstance mod because Frodo was wearing the ring for so long, and Frodo failed the save.
The game rules are guidelines for the books, and are not meant to influence the damn story. Or can you in all honesty imagine Ed Greenwood and Troy Denning sitting at home rolling saves and to-hits for all the combatants in Death of the Dragon???
I can't |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 01:23:50
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Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Writing novels is an entirely different ballgame than writing D&D adventures. To say that novels have to adhere to the D&D rules is ... well ... laughable (for lack of a better term).
In all the time I've been reading FR and DL and Ravenloft novels I never really bothered with game stats and the like. Things do work differently in novels. Inspired soldiers will run from the dragon in game or novel, if I am the DM. Sorry saves work on most things but in a novel... no wait a minute, I can just see it.
When Frodo finally decided to keep the ring in Mount Doom, Tolkien prolly rolled a Will-save for the little fella, modified by a -12 circumstance mod because Frodo was wearing the ring for so long, and Frodo failed the save.
The game rules are guidelines for the books, and are not meant to influence the damn story. Or can you in all honesty imagine Ed Greenwood and Troy Denning sitting at home rolling saves and to-hits for all the combatants in Death of the Dragon???
I can't
I can't too. The novels are a completely different matter. But I think the issue which I addressed in my comments were about game rules (spies and warfare in a fantasy setting).
I was not talking about dice rolls when you're writing a novel ("Um, damn, Alusair rolled a 1 for a Ride check... this will be embarassing.") Still, a D&D game setting novel should acknowledge the existence of the rules, and reflect them as well as it only can. I agree that a duel between Entreri and Drizzt, if written "by the book" (=sticking only to the game rules) would be a boring description ("Hit, Hit, Hit, Hit, Miss. Blood and pieces of meat flying around. Then it's Artemis' turn. Hit, Hit, Hit... etcetera"). Just the fact that a high-level fighter has usually a "buffer" of 100-200 (or more) hit points before death would make any fight hardly exciting - you would just be counting those hit points, since there would be no danger of him dying from the first attack.
There are, however, authors who pay more attention to the game rules than others. Richard, for example. You see those class/prestige class levels and feats in his writing, and he pulls this off in an intriguing and refreshing way (at least IMHO). |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
Edited by - Asgetrion on 17 Apr 2006 01:24:45 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 01:26:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I see Waterdeep as London without England.
In my opinion, London is a poor comparison. Don't think too "medieval", Charles   |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 01:34:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Halcyon
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
For me, if I was going to RPG the Chosen then I would portray them as military geniuses and leaders of immense power. I'd definitely portray the fact that they were unable to bring their cities resources for Everveska's aid but they themselves were willing to lend what aid they were capable of doing.
Honestly, the Chosen are not the sort to engage in constant military warfare to grow genius enough and they are too social-comfort bound and averse to violence that they may not be willing to do so.
Too social-comfort bound and averse to violence? You are talking about epic-level characters, who did not gain those levels wrestling with their sofas
Seriously, ALL of them have high stats, including a high INT score. To me, that means a genius, no matter what Troy or any other author may think of them. There is a difference between a well-read genius and a military genius, true, but the Chosen have acted as battlefield commanders before - against the Zhentilar and the Sahuagin invasion to name two such occasions. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Carion Hunter
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 03:21:54
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quote:
Your point of view is not supported by the official D&D game rules or the FR setting (at least to my meager knowledge.)
You also refer to “using too much magic” being addictive. Apparently this is a house rule in your campaigns, and it is fine with me (my gaming group also uses similar house rules with spells and potions.) I just don’t like the fact that you imply that all of us others should also feel about magic that way. Your point of view is not supported by the official D&D game rules or the FR setting (at least to my meager knowledge.)
Ahem, well I simply must agree with Mace Hammerhand, if one is to write a novel that is based on the dictates of the D&D rules, then I see the author writing and rolling the dice and moving the figures on the map. That would be very tiresome on the author and limit his imagination. Afterall, novels and the real game itself are distinct matters,I doubt the authir would want to roll the dice and calculate and then write into the novel who win, this make the novel more like a logbook than a novel. Then if so, for every soldier that fights on the battlefield, might as well invite a supercomputer over to do the calculations and inform the author who win and die.
Concerning magic, if this is a fantasy setting, and the author is writing a novel, the author would not want to roll the dice and check it. Simply, I meant that it would make the character more flexible, adaptable and farsighted as well as well prepared, give a three-dimensional feel to the character who can use magic and other skills or simply resourcefulness to do his work efficiently and effectively.
quote:
Without either Arcane or Divine magic, there is no such thing as “Grade A Combat Data” on a fantasy battlefield, because your enemy might use such spells anytime (even a bunch of Mass Invisibility or Veil spells to disappear or change their apperarance to match YOUR soldiers). While it is true that you can protect yourself from scrying, and even use wards to send monsters to any who try to scry you, it is still worth the risk. You risk yourself leaving yourself vulnerable to your enemy if you stick to “mundane means” only.
Nope, it is always best to resort to both arcane means and mundane means, an intelligent opponent would expect you to use magic to cover your troops and gather intelligence and so on, If I were the intelligent opponent, I would set up false displays and false setups to decieve your magic information gathering activities. Of course, I never and will not deny the usefulness of magic in spying but there is a risk of false information and the opponent sending magical monsters through your scrying globes to attack you for in fantasy setting, such events are also possible, if not, explain so to me.
Mundane means are self-explantatory and I prefer to use it to confirm the information gathered by arcane means, at least I won't be like Khelben sending troops out to die for nothing. Having both means serve to act as a failsafe against any failure or false information.
Also, Grade A Combat Data is not what you think so low of, it is worth a roomful of platinum coins.
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If you can secure your spies’ loyalties, all the better, but how are you going to ensure that those masters of “mind games” (your term) are truly 100% loyal to you, unless you use mind-control magic (or psionics ;).
Surely every wise spymaster have backup plans against errant spies, for no spymaster would recruit a spy withou formulating backup plans-not necessarily needs psionic magic. In the art of stealth and spying, it always pays to have backup plans ready.
quote:
I can't too. The novels are a completely different matter. But I think the issue which I addressed in my comments were about game rules (spies and warfare in a fantasy setting).
I was not talking about dice rolls when you're writing a novel ("Um, damn, Alusair rolled a 1 for a Ride check... this will be embarassing.") Still, a D&D game setting novel should acknowledge the existence of the rules, and reflect them as well as it only can. I agree that a duel between Entreri and Drizzt, if written "by the book" (=sticking only to the game rules) would be a boring description ("Hit, Hit, Hit, Hit, Miss. Blood and pieces of meat flying around. Then it's Artemis' turn. Hit, Hit, Hit... etcetera"). Just the fact that a high-level fighter has usually a "buffer" of 100-200 (or more) hit points before death would make any fight hardly exciting - you would just be counting those hit points, since there would be no danger of him dying from the first attack.
There are, however, authors who pay more attention to the game rules than others. Richard, for example. You see those class/prestige class levels and feats in his writing, and he pulls this off in an intriguing and refreshing way (at least IMHO).
Ahem, not every author is like Richard Baker or Richard A.Knaak, not everyone is the same and that talented and neither every author got experience in D&D stuff and FR gaming stuff, if one expect every author to do that, then I say the novel is more like reading a logbook(trust me it is boring) than reading a fantasy novel. Also, it restricts authors' imagination and reduce the number of authors writing for FR books or whatever fantasy based books.
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Wanna throw me out? You gotta think thrice about that. |
Edited by - Carion Hunter on 17 Apr 2006 03:24:01 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 03:26:00
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Hmm,
I think this topic has sorta gone off topic. It used to be about heroes in novels and now it's about game rules vs novels and authors. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Halcyon
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 03:32:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Too social-comfort bound and averse to violence? You are talking about epic-level characters, who did not gain those levels wrestling with their sofas
Seriously, ALL of them have high stats, including a high INT score. To me, that means a genius, no matter what Troy or any other author may think of them. There is a difference between a well-read genius and a military genius, true, but the Chosen have acted as battlefield commanders before - against the Zhentilar and the Sahuagin invasion to name two such occasions.
Ahem, not all of the Chosen got epic level stats stamped on their heads for everyone to see. In my perspective, they are simply not cut out for long-term violence and fighting. Also, I must agree that high intelligence does not equal to wisdom and experience, so high intelligence won't help the Chosen in every situation, if so, than Laeral and the Chosen could had circumvented the lack of entry into Evermeet in the Novel Evermeetinstead of sitting there yelling, kicking and brooding and pulling a long face.
Acted as battle commanders against the Zhents and Sahuagin? I guessed you had not faced an intelligent and insidious foe before, but if they are really battle genuises, then Waterdeep won't be half-in smoke and bodies piled so high. Secondly, the foes they faced like the Zhentilar and Sahuagin are simple foes that even the most green commander can dealt with logical thinking, and that doesn't make them battle genuises. I would award them the title of battle genuises if they can fight off the Elder Eternal Evils well enough without inflicting high casualty rate. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 04:13:53
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Dude, the Zhents are supposed to be the most insidious and dangerous group in the world. They're supposed to be a real danger of taking over the planet. Dismissing them as simple foes is pretty silly.
Also, who said the Sahuagin aren't good at battle?
Frankly, I find the Chosen ill suited to non-constant battle. Khelban is the only one suitable for actually living in a city as opposed to adventuring.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 17 Apr 2006 04:17:07 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 04:30:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Dude, the Zhents are supposed to be the most insidious and dangerous group in the world. They're supposed to be a real danger of taking over the planet. Dismissing them as simple foes is pretty silly.
Also, who said the Sahuagin aren't good at battle?
Frankly, I find the Chosen ill suited to non-constant battle. Khelban is the only one suitable for actually living in a city as opposed to adventuring.
I would say, study the chosen a little more, check out Alustriel, and the TOTAL history of Silverymoon. Any true realms fan will see a huge connection here and it does not involve constant battle. Yes I even have more examples, after you work through this one |
Edited by - scererar on 17 Apr 2006 04:32:55 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 04:36:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It was an exaggeration but the fact remains I don't think that there has to be an acknowledgement of the warrior aspects of the Chosen.
I completly disagree. the chosen are not ones to go directly into battle, all of the time. As far as warrior aspect, where?? there stats do not reflect this at all. It is documented many times, that the chosen work more behind the scenes than anything else. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 04:46:05
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Yes, I normally agree.
They work behind the scenes as generals and manipulators of events. I.e. as leaders.
As for being warriors in DIRECT battle, the novels constantly reflect them appearing and blasting the hell out of things. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 04:52:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Yes, I normally agree.
They work behind the scenes as generals and manipulators of events. I.e. as leaders.
As for being warriors in DIRECT battle, the novels constantly reflect them appearing and blasting the hell out of things.
Where?? I can name but a few on one hand. I have read almost everyone. I will also bet you that any novel you name will be highly discredited by any di-hard realms fan as "proper" charactization of the chosen, but I will still humor you. I just do not characterize the chosen this way. Maybe we should just agree to disagree  , but I am still open for some debate. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 05:02:53
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Silverfall
Return of the Archwizards (I call it "Commando Chosen")
Elminster Saga (Elminster is always adventuring here)
Alustriel leading the attack on the Drow of Silvermoon's forces from her flaming chariot in Siege
and so on. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 05:12:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Silverfall
Return of the Archwizards (I call it "Commando Chosen")
Elminster Saga (Elminster is always adventuring here)
Alustriel leading the attack on the Drow of Silvermoon's forces from her flaming chariot in Siege
and so on.
And so on and so on does not work here my friend.
Silverfall, a book about the seven sisters, will of course, center on the seven sisters, and what they do. So yes a little blaze here and there is what will happen. I still see more reflection on how the outcome will be, rather than blasting everything to bits and sorting it out later.
RoTA will raise up just about every realms fan on these boards to arms, as not properly reflecting the chosen.
The Elmister saga reflects the old mage, throughout his career ( his younger days anyway), as avoiding confrontations by spells and such, as much as possible.
And finally, Alustriel, I still recommend that you study her entire history and not just a few sentences from several of RAS's novels, showing her lead the way in her magical chariot. Even so, with her showing up to ANY battle from a novel, I have never seen mass destruction type senerios as you seem to suggest. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 05:14:50
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AVOIDING CONFRONTATION? The massive amount of dead in the book from Mage Lords to Elf Lords sort of pass you buy?
as for Alustriel, I know her history as a failed Harper and lover of Sammaster and frankly she's still going to have more military genius than probably anyone else in the Realms because she's immortal/chosen/a genius/well read like all of them.
And it rather defeats the purpose of the Chosen to be "mass destruction." No, they're killers of enemies of the Realms. The nature of war is to destroy the enemy so you can preserve yourselves or what you protect. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 05:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
AVOIDING CONFRONTATION? The massive amount of dead in the book from Mage Lords to Elf Lords sort of pass you buy?
as for Alustriel, I know her history as a failed Harper and lover of Sammaster and frankly she's still going to have more military genius than probably anyone else in the Realms because she's immortal/chosen/a genius/well read like all of them.
And it rather defeats the purpose of the Chosen to be "mass destruction." No, they're killers of enemies of the Realms. The nature of war is to destroy the enemy so you can preserve yourselves or what you protect.
I would say keep reading, Alustriel, basically a founder of silverymoon, even under an assumed name( I will let you figure that one) has never been one to raise all hell when it came to battle.
As far as the Elminster novels, I've read them and still do not see your point here my friend. Do you see a direct result of his actions reflecting the end of your theory??
the nature of war is to secure whatever objective the government you work for suggests. As a 12 year military veteran, I know first hand that war is a political means, when diplomacy fails.
As far as the chosen are concerned, I have seen the simbul, destroying the red wizards of thay, and other chosen fighting the Zhents, while still others fight against malaugrym and pherrimm |
Edited by - scererar on 17 Apr 2006 05:29:30 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 05:55:29
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1. The Peaceful aspect of Alustriel is actually possible to be noted as a military strategy. As a long term means of creating a bulwark against hostile forces, the establishing of a solid position to operate her activities from is a major point in her favor as a leader in general.
While she's a bringer of peace, she's also got claws.
2. Yes, I've seen Elminster deliberately bring about the destruction of the Magelords rain not the least of which being at actions from his hands. I've further seen him engage in countless personal battles while also "adventure" which has to teach him at least the value of small scale tactics (and all large scale tactics are made of small except in macrochasm)
3. I think that's obvious but war as a political tool is an extension of the fundamental principle of preservation. That's arguing semantics though.
4. Yes, the implications of the books though is that they're long term champions of the stability of the Realms.
I think its reasonable to assume they have vast military experience in such a wild and hostile planet as the Realms. I will confess its possible Sylune, Dove, and Storm might not though. Ditto Quenthel.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 06:05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
1. The Peaceful aspect of Alustriel is actually possible to be noted as a military strategy. As a long term means of creating a bulwark against hostile forces, the establishing of a solid position to operate her activities from is a major point in her favor as a leader in general.
While she's a bringer of peace, she's also got claws.
2. Yes, I've seen Elminster deliberately bring about the destruction of the Magelords rain not the least of which being at actions from his hands. I've further seen him engage in countless personal battles while also "adventure" which has to teach him at least the value of small scale tactics (and all large scale tactics are made of small except in macrochasm)
3. I think that's obvious but war as a political tool is an extension of the fundamental principle of preservation. That's arguing semantics though.
4. Yes, the implications of the books though is that they're long term champions of the stability of the Realms.
I think its reasonable to assume they have vast military experience in such a wild and hostile planet as the Realms. I will confess its possible Sylune, Dove, and Storm might not though. Ditto Quenthel.
I am starting to agree with you again.
1. of course, she is ultimately looking for the greater solution.
2. Yep, he has had to make his point, and that of Mystra's several times. Additionally, the magelords killed his family and village, this was for revenge my friend. OVERALL, though the greater solution to meet whatever need is looked for.
3. to each his own, I still know what is what first hand, but will keep this topic to the realms
4. Yes the in the "long term of the realms" aspect is quite true. Of course they would have to draw a line in the sand a time or two, in order to get their points across. In my opinion, of about 20 years in the realms points to the chosen looking for a peaceful long term outcome/ what is the greater good, as to what they do or not do on a daily basis.
I still do not agree on the miltary genius aspect of your theories here though. I still say show me. one or two of the chosen maybe, but to place them in an all encompassing title, I do not think so. |
Edited by - scererar on 17 Apr 2006 06:15:39 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 06:16:55
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Thanks. I'm not questioning your credentials or expertise.
Well for the remaining Chosen, I say El becasue we've seen him involved in several wars already (Myth Drannor's defense has been stated, the Mage Lord's overthrow and presumably innumerable other conflicts). The Simbul can't keep the Red Wizards at bay solely with spellcraft. Khelban generally seems to be Waterdeep's brains as a whole and we've seen he's been involved in several conflicts. Alustriel we've also seen in that respect. The North for both Waterdeep and Silvermoon is very hostile territory.
Admittedly, Dove and Storm are just professional harpers and any conflicts I imagine they'd be in the information aspects.
My inclinations that above even experience they're geniuses is mostly that "experience is the best teacher" and the fact that if anyone has been exposed to organized military theory it would be these well travelled and learned individuals in their positions of power. In Middle Ages times, political power must be enforced with military. |
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StromLancer
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 09:55:59
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Ahem, time to make some corrective statements.
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AVOIDING CONFRONTATION? The massive amount of dead in the book from Mage Lords to Elf Lords sort of pass you buy?
I would buy that.
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as for Alustriel, I know her history as a failed Harper and lover of Sammaster and frankly she's still going to have more military genius than probably anyone else in the Realms because she's immortal/chosen/a genius/well read like all of them.
She is hardly a military genius, if she is, then why should she hold back her armies against the Orc hordes in the Far North? For an pre-emptive strike to destroy the orc hordes in an offensive with the legion of Mithral Hall would forever secure Silverymoon's future and prevent war from scarring or entering the Silver Marches, and if she is a genius in the military, why forgo pre-emptive strikes?
Frankly speaking and I agree with Scererar, it is better to go study Alustriel's history properly. First, she is very accomplished in politics and she favors using political means to defuse situations instead of bloody fighting, secondly, she does not want to bring more casualties to her army as she knew high casualty rates will mean a turn around in the Silvaeren's opinion of her. Thirdly, she spends more time on politics, cooped up in her own city and secure in her own city, enjoying life with her consorts and having fun here and there. She is simply not cut out for war unless she is the daughter of Tempus, God of War, then I would have no arguments to say.
If she is genius? Then that means Sammaster is nowhere compared to her. Sammaster was supposedly the Realms' next Karsus, so brilliant in magic that he outshone the Seven Sisters in terms of calibre and so impressed Mystra that she made him Chosen. Sammaster once outgunned Alustriel in a mage duel and almost slew her, if Alustriel was that damn genius, than I expect that Alustriel would had outsmarted Sammaster in the mage duel already.
Also, well read doesn't make one a genius, rather make the person a bookish one unless she knows how to differentiate information and how to apply it.
Lastly, the Chosen are near-immortal, not completely immortal, almost like the Shades of Shade Enclave.
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And it rather defeats the purpose of the Chosen to be "mass destruction." No, they're killers of enemies of the Realms. The nature of war is to destroy the enemy so you can preserve yourselves or what you protect.
The nature of war is more than that. War is simply more than destroying the enemy. Example: Alexander led his army to victory against the elephant armies of India, yet Alexander never slew the King of India but rather praised him and spared his life and did not raze India or kill her citizens, even the defeated enemy troops that were not slain were not killed or mistreated. Alexander never razed the cities he conquered, but spread his beliefs and philosophy to the cities and inhabitants he had conquered. War is simply more than that, war can be going forth to liberate another country of tyranny like India's Famous King Krishna who fought to liberate a city from a tyrant demon king, fight the demons and devils occupying a country in a Holy Crusade or spreading the glory of a religion and enlightening the peoples of the other lands, letting them know the glory of a religion.
Also, Alustriel doesn't seem the one to like mass destruction. Also, the Chosen are not killers of the enemies of the realms, there are countless enemies in the realms that are begging the Chosen to come kill them and yet it is other adventurers and some Harper mortal that does the job. Think of Kelemvor and Midnight and Cyric when they dealt with the big hot shot Myrkul and Bhaal, both are hot shots and big evil baddies in the divine Patheon.
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The Peaceful aspect of Alustriel is actually possible to be noted as a military strategy. As a long term means of creating a bulwark against hostile forces, the establishing of a solid position to operate her activities from is a major point in her favor as a leader in general.
Military Strategy? I doubt so. Establishment of a bulwark against hostile forces is rather an invitation to an long term siege which is no good, rather like what Genghis Khan said, "Better to meet the enemy in the open field than stay in a fortress to invite siege." Better to bring the fight to the enemy than wait for the enemy to bring the ceiling down on you, that's a better strategy, and Alustriel's strategy of consolidating her position is rather less effective.
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the nature of war is to secure whatever objective the government you work for suggests. As a 12 year military veteran, I know first hand that war is a political means, when diplomacy fails
Amen, hey dude, I am one who agree with you even if I am in the front lines right now.
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Lead the war fate commands you to!
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Krase
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 10:19:11
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1. The Peaceful aspect of Alustriel is actually possible to be noted as a military strategy. As a long term means of creating a bulwark against hostile forces, the establishing of a solid position to operate her activities from is a major point in her favor as a leader in general.
While she's a bringer of peace, she's also got claws.
She got claws but she got no teeth. Her verbal threats are nothing and nobody really fears her despite her Chosen status. She can't even outgun Sammaster in her mage duel with him and she is too peace type to like war and that means she is a bit too restraining in her actions against foes.
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2. Yes, I've seen Elminster deliberately bring about the destruction of the Magelords rain not the least of which being at actions from his hands. I've further seen him engage in countless personal battles while also "adventure" which has to teach him at least the value of small scale tactics (and all large scale tactics are made of small except in macrochasm)
Ahuh, correct and well said. That's why we have the commandos and spec-ops.
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3. I think that's obvious but war as a political tool is an extension of the fundamental principle of preservation. That's arguing semantics though.
Nope, that differs on how one view it but war is never a political tool and war is a beast that is very hard to restrain once unleashed.
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4. Yes, the implications of the books though is that they're long term champions of the stability of the Realms.
I think its reasonable to assume they have vast military experience in such a wild and hostile planet as the Realms. I will confess its possible Sylune, Dove, and Storm might not though. Ditto Quenthel.
Nope, I doubt it. They are Champions of Magic, and even so they strive for stability of the realms but I have not seen them achieving anything significant or worthy of praise.
Having vast military experience doesn't make them a genius for certain things from one's experience applied to the Chosen's incredible age, may slip from their minds very easily.
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The Simbul can't keep the Red Wizards at bay solely with spellcraft.
She is the backbone of her country's defense and the Red Wizards have respect for her Art not to knock on her door too many times, but even she did not beat off the Sahuagin when the Sea Wars started by Iakhovas kicked up.
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Khelban generally seems to be Waterdeep's brains as a whole and we've seen he's been involved in several conflicts.
Khelben is more involved in Waterdeep's politics and maneuvreing his Harper and Tel"Telukiira chesspieces, he is seldom involved in realm-kicking conflicts other that the RotA, the Sahuagin attack, the defense of Myth Drannor.
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Alustriel we've also seen in that respect.
She can't even deal with Obould and his Orc hordes, my opinion of her had dropped rather drastically. If she were that good, she would had smack Obould and his hordes upside down already.
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My inclinations that above even experience they're geniuses is mostly that "experience is the best teacher" and the fact that if anyone has been exposed to organized military theory it would be these well travelled and learned individuals in their positions of power.
Nope, no matter how experience one is, one would find how small one is despite one's own great amount of experience and knowledge in face of other never-seen before matters and against the greater power of others and against the master of All, Time.
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In Middle Ages times, political power must be enforced with military
That doesn't buy respect but rather invitations to destroy that country. For such methods don't buy respect or awe from the other opponents, but encourages them to strengthen their military and political power to challenge that particular country, think of modern day situation right now especially Iran.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 11:09:23
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quote:
That doesn't buy respect but rather invitations to destroy that country. For such methods don't buy respect or awe from the other opponents, but encourages them to strengthen their military and political power to challenge that particular country, think of modern day situation right now especially Iran.
And if one lays down one's arms, one would invite attack. ESPECIALLY in the Middle Ages.
Frankly, in the Obould session the problem is the sheer volume of orcs more than anything else. Napoleon was a genius but genius can only get you so far. Same with all the other attacks that they endured.
(And I personally think Myth Drannor, Silverymoon, Waterdeep, and so on are big accomplishments for Realmsian stability)
I also own the Seven Sisters so I know Alustriel's history. I don't quite get the Sammaster arguement though, she's not a genius because she lost to one of the most powerful mages in Realms history?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Krase
Acolyte
6 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 12:01:59
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(And I personally think Myth Drannor, Silverymoon, Waterdeep, and so on are big accomplishments for Realmsian stability)
Myth Drannor was a disaster than an accomplishment. The ruins and dead bodies are one accomplishment.
Silverymoon? Under the guidance and control of the current government does Silverymoon stand but the city's mythal is corruptable easily and a racial riot can happen anytime if the government got toppled.
Waterdeep is a boiling cauldron and there is strong decay at her foundations.
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I also own the Seven Sisters so I know Alustriel's history. I don't quite get the Sammaster arguement though, she's not a genius because she lost to one of the most powerful mages in Realms history?
That's 3000% absolutely correct & accurate. Sammaster was the Realm's Next Karsus Incarnate, so superpowerful and so exceedingly brilliant and genius that he managed to kick the butt of Alustriel Silverhand in a one-on-one fight that Alustriel was forced to stoop to so low to ask for her sister and her sister's consort for help against the victorious Sammaster. Even Mystra feared Sammaster's brilliance as she feared Sammaster would act like Karsus so she removed his Chosen status.
Like what I said, if she was so military genius and so arcanely genius like what you claim her to be, then Obould and Sammaster would had been kicked across the Multiverse by Alustriel already.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 12:32:54
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quote:
Like what I said, if she was so military genius and so arcanely genius like what you claim her to be, then Obould and Sammaster would had been kicked across the Multiverse by Alustriel already.
One can be a genius and still be beaten. My point is that Sammaster is one of the most powerful Chosen, second only to Elminster (I know the Simbul is more powerful but I think that Elminster is the greatest of them in terms of intellect as well as magical power). The fact she stood up to him for as long as she did is proof positive how powerful she is.
Of course, I don't accept the neutered villains of most stories. ;-)
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Heroes in Novels
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