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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 04 May 2006 : 19:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
The travel-and-encounter structure isn't unique to D&D-based fantasy. Many fantasies, including Tolkien's, are structured this way.
I don't stat out my characters, and I don't consider myself to be obsessively devoted to the minutiae of the game rules. I do think, though, that to a certain degree and on a certain conceptual level, the game rules describe conditions in the Forgotten Realms, and if you ignore them entirely, you aren't doing an adequate job of depicitng that particular environment.
Just to throw in with Richard here, the irony is that D&D, in emulating classic fantasy, adopted some of its conventions and extrapolated them. Travelling and random encounters definately seem like a Tolkien thing.
Also, I don't want to read Realms fiction that starts to stray too far afield from the "D&D" template. By that I mean that I don't want wizards using healing magic, or not having to prepare spells, or even using "Tolkein-eske what did he actually accomplish with that minor spell" type magic. I don't want priests that have no connection to their god, or that don't gain any Power from the deities. I am not saying you can't have excellent fantasy in this vein, but that the Realms, as we grew to know and love it, is defined by D&D conventions. This doesn't mean that it has to be limited by those conventions, but that at the very least authors should acknowledge such conventions when they portray the Realms.
I know I am getting to be an old man now (or at least feel like it), but I can remember comments about books, television, comics, and video games, and even ::sigh:: professional wrestling, where people decry that they don't want heroes, and they don't want traditional story structure, and they want characters with no bounds and no ties to how stories were told in the past . . . and no matter what the push and the changes are, people still revert to type. Why? Because Joseph Campbell knows what he is talking about . . .
Human beings, for the most part, like a hero they can relate to, that goes through trials and challenges, becomes better at what they are doing, and then defeats some great threat. The hero can be a rake with a lot of flaws, or can be a paragon of virtue, but the journey is going to be very similar, its just the details that differ.
Alias may be a bit more virtuous than, say, Erevis Cale, but in the end, if Cale didn't worry about his friends, and the poeople he used to work with and for, and he didn't resist Mask's temptations and work against a greater evil, he wouldn't be that interesting. Why? Because most of us can't find too many common touchstones with someone whose entire life is "hm, how can I poison X before I get caught." I'll contend that even movies like "Goodfellas" are compelling not because the lead characters are mafia types, but because they are friends with each other, and have families, and they try to balance that with a destructive need to acheive more power.
No one is ever going to come up with a formula for creating a brand new type of story that is completely unlike any other story and yet still manages to be facinating to everyone that used to like the older stories. The best we can really do is to try to find out what we like in a story, and what we don't like, and try to find out why we have the preferences that we have.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 20:08:27
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I agree, KEJr, I was merely stating that I don't wanna see the big uns all the time.
The hero is archetypical, yes, but has he to be all powerful? Or all mighty?
To read about kings and stuff all the time is as boring as reading the same stale story merely being rewritten. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 20:14:06
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| Well, I will say I would like to see a balance between "low level" characters, people just starting out, not particularly powerful or experienced, dealing with more local villains and problems, and really powerful characters dealing with REALLY BIG EVIL. I want to see both, but I know what you are saying . . . things tend to skew toward the high end of the scale. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 23:39:43
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Yeah, my problem is the exact opposite of Maces to be honest. I swear if I keep reading about another schmuck with nothing particularly important about him, I may honestly have to scream really. At least with Elminster, Drizzt, the Obarskyrs, and Artemis there's a sense these guys have some aura of destiny about them.
But the last FR books I enjoyed was the Moonshae books and since then I've been reading about Daemonfae, Archwizards, and the like but the 'heroes' are just some schmucks who know how to use a sword or some magic. I don't care about them.
Give me some HEROES not mercenaries!
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2006 : 02:16:19
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I say it is better that we see heroes being constantly tested in situations that are nerve-bending and mind-wracking sort of situations. I like stories that focus on what is going to happen to the character and what is his destiny and fate, is he going to bend his destiny and fate to his preference or be consumed by the very destiny and fate that is the only choice for him. Hence, the hero should be starting out as some fair level character but not too low and not too high so that he can deal with the machinations and hunks of the great powerful villain in the story. As the story progresses, it would be nice to see how the situation forces the character to adapt, on the spot develop new spells or tricks or whatever to deal with the situation or simply bend the situation to his advantage, I had read a few novels that moderate level heroes managed to defeat epic high level villains without needing to be powerful or as high as the epic high level villain.
The problem is that heroes had to be high level to deal with this high level villain or the hero level had to match the villain level so as to ensure fair fights. it is simply one thing, acquiring more power and levels just to defeat the great high level villain But this should be rectified, it is time to see how moderate or low level characters without acquiring more power and levels, defeat great powerful high level villains. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2006 : 08:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Yeah, my problem is the exact opposite of Maces to be honest. I swear if I keep reading about another schmuck with nothing particularly important about him, I may honestly have to scream really. At least with Elminster, Drizzt, the Obarskyrs, and Artemis there's a sense these guys have some aura of destiny about them.
But the last FR books I enjoyed was the Moonshae books and since then I've been reading about Daemonfae, Archwizards, and the like but the 'heroes' are just some schmucks who know how to use a sword or some magic. I don't care about them.
Give me some HEROES not mercenaries!
Not to sound rude, but why don't you read DragonLance instead? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2006 : 08:36:06
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Maybe it's just me, but high important destinies are nice and in some cases really do work. To just read about the big dogs (no offense to the creators of Drizzt etc) is like reading comic books, stuff happens but with the franchise having to go on the chance of some major character (story-/novel-wise Azoun wasn't a major player IMO) biting the dust are really minor. Unless, of course we get to see more prequels and Star Wars has shown us where that can lead. Wizards is a company belonging to Hasbro. Their first and foremost goal is to make money, if they didn't we would not see any more D&D!
Little schmucks, as Charles puts it... yea, you are right, El was born a Chosen of Mystra, Drizzt popped out of Malice's womb fully equipped with 2 scimitars whirling before he could take even 2 steps(bloody weird image, literally!). If you want only this we have comic books!
Let's not walk away from the comic book idea for a moment, when Gambit was introduced to the X-Men we had a fresh wind blowing in the franchise.
We do NEED new "schmucks", and with that Charles you basically accuse everyone (Erik Scott de Bie, Elaine Cunningham, Richard Baker, Lisa Smedman, and many more) to write about "schmucks". On behalf of those who write great, enjoyable tales, I say: "Charles, you are so much out of line, and need to get your priorities straight, that you should apologize to all of them or quit posting here!"
Yes, Elaine Cunningham, if we take your approach, writes about "schmucks"! Arylin, Danilo, the characters of Counselors & Kings, Liriel...all "schmucks".
HOW DARE YOU? 'nuff said. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2006 : 11:22:33
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| Alright, we're starting to rehash old ground and get into ugly areas. I think this thread has run its course. It's locked. |
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Heroes in Novels
Topic Locked
