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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 17:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by StromLancer
She is hardly a military genius, if she is, then why should she hold back her armies against the Orc hordes in the Far North? For an pre-emptive strike to destroy the orc hordes in an offensive with the legion of Mithral Hall would forever secure Silverymoon's future and prevent war from scarring or entering the Silver Marches, and if she is a genius in the military, why forgo pre-emptive strikes?
Pre-emptive strikes? That would forever secure Silverymoon's future and such? You must be dreaming ;) Firstly, you would have to scour every last cavern and hold in the North and the Underdark to make sure you killed EVERY orc there. Have you counted how many orc hordes have been broken, or slain to the last tusker? And still they keep on coming, every now and then. You know that orcs breed like rabbits, don't you? The losses for any nation trying to scour the North of all the orcs would be devastating, inviting other races (trolls, goblins, hobgoblins, dragons, etc.) to attack the weakened races of good.
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Frankly speaking and I agree with Scererar, it is better to go study Alustriel's history properly. First, she is very accomplished in politics and she favors using political means to defuse situations instead of bloody fighting, secondly, she does not want to bring more casualties to her army as she knew high casualty rates will mean a turn around in the Silvaeren's opinion of her. Thirdly, she spends more time on politics, cooped up in her own city and secure in her own city, enjoying life with her consorts and having fun here and there. She is simply not cut out for war unless she is the daughter of Tempus, God of War, then I would have no arguments to say.
I agree. Alustriel is more inclined to use politics than brute strength, but does that make her any less capable as a leader, or a wartime commander? An important part of any commander's tactical abilities are his diplomatic skills - and knowing when to use force and when not to. Although I, too, think that she is not exactly a "sword-in-hand" battlefield leader, I see her as a tactical genius when she needs to be (remember, she HAS seen centuries of violence and struggle in the North). Occasionally she might be a "frolicking" and fun-loving queen, but that is just one (a very mortal) side of her.
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If she is genius? Then that means Sammaster is nowhere compared to her. Sammaster was supposedly the Realms' next Karsus, so brilliant in magic that he outshone the Seven Sisters in terms of calibre and so impressed Mystra that she made him Chosen. Sammaster once outgunned Alustriel in a mage duel and almost slew her, if Alustriel was that damn genius, than I expect that Alustriel would had outsmarted Sammaster in the mage duel already.
Also, well read doesn't make one a genius, rather make the person a bookish one unless she knows how to differentiate information and how to apply it.
Lastly, the Chosen are near-immortal, not completely immortal, almost like the Shades of Shade Enclave.
How so? Only, if you see how successful you are in magic duels as being directly related to IQ, yes, maybe then. But let’s remember that when their duel happened, before Sammaster lashed out, Alustriel considered him a friend and ally – a fellow Chosen of Mystra. Think of it this way: if one of the PCs in your group suddenly attacked his/her friends, would YOU use lethal force right away? You would probably think that he has been charmed/mind-controlled by an evil source, and try to subdue him/her, right? I think Alustriel was constrained by her feelings of friendship towards Sammaster, and this was a clear advantage to him over her. So, yes, he “outgunned” her because she didn’t use “full force” at the beginning of the duel.
I do not think the Shades (in general) are anywhere near the Chosen in power, unless you refer to the Princes of Shade. They are powerful Netherese beings, and their leaders are the only ones who might be equal to a Chosen of Mystra, but still, The Shades do not have Silver Fire, or any other Mystra-given abilities.
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Military Strategy? I doubt so. Establishment of a bulwark against hostile forces is rather an invitation to an long term siege which is no good, rather like what Genghis Khan said, "Better to meet the enemy in the open field than stay in a fortress to invite siege." Better to bring the fight to the enemy than wait for the enemy to bring the ceiling down on you, that's a better strategy, and Alustriel's strategy of consolidating her position is rather less effective.
Aye, perhaps in the ”Real World” perspective, but if you have access to portals and teleportation spells, this might be a completely different matter   . Not to mention that Silverymoon holds many mages capable of breaking a siege with their spells only.
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"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 17:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hmm,
I think this topic has sorta gone off topic. It used to be about heroes in novels and now it's about game rules vs novels and authors. :)
Ah, Kuje, we're just warming up here  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 17:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hmm,
I think this topic has sorta gone off topic. It used to be about heroes in novels and now it's about game rules vs novels and authors. :)
Ah, Kuje, we're just warming up here
Grin, yeah warming up into continuous debates about the Chosen of Mystra. So much for the rest of the heroes in novels. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 17:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Krase
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(And I personally think Myth Drannor, Silverymoon, Waterdeep, and so on are big accomplishments for Realmsian stability)
Myth Drannor was a disaster than an accomplishment. The ruins and dead bodies are one accomplishment.
Silverymoon? Under the guidance and control of the current government does Silverymoon stand but the city's mythal is corruptable easily and a racial riot can happen anytime if the government got toppled.
Waterdeep is a boiling cauldron and there is strong decay at her foundations.
quote:
I also own the Seven Sisters so I know Alustriel's history. I don't quite get the Sammaster arguement though, she's not a genius because she lost to one of the most powerful mages in Realms history?
That's 3000% absolutely correct & accurate. Sammaster was the Realm's Next Karsus Incarnate, so superpowerful and so exceedingly brilliant and genius that he managed to kick the butt of Alustriel Silverhand in a one-on-one fight that Alustriel was forced to stoop to so low to ask for her sister and her sister's consort for help against the victorious Sammaster. Even Mystra feared Sammaster's brilliance as she feared Sammaster would act like Karsus so she removed his Chosen status.
Like what I said, if she was so military genius and so arcanely genius like what you claim her to be, then Obould and Sammaster would had been kicked across the Multiverse by Alustriel already.
Myth Drannor itself stood for 453 years. While that might not be a very long time in Elven terms, many generations of humans and halflings, and a few of dwarves, saw the place as a shining example. Further, what exactly did the people of Myth Drannor do to invite their demise? The whole issue of the Nefarious Three and being awakened by Garnet wasn't exactly something that could have been easily forseen or guarded against.
Is Silverymoon's Mythal as powerful as the old elven True Mythals? No, but that is kind of the point, that its working toward the old Myth Drannan ideals, not that its already its equal. It may be easily corruptable compared to a True Mythal, but even most very power mages have no idea how to even start such a feat.
When have we ever seen any indication that its only fear of Alustriel or Tearn Hornblade that keeps the population of Silverymoon together? Where does the speculation that there will be race riots in Silverymoon come from? The way you make this sound, there are dwarven, halfling, and gnomish slums with masses of such races barely surviving and too disadvantaged to better their situation or to leave for ancestral homes.
Waterdeep is a boiling cauldron? Yes, many of the noble families have corrupt members. Part of this is a function of them having a ton of gold and not many responsibilities. And every family that has shady dealings also has a heroic or idealistic member as well. Waterdeep has always actively driven out assasin and theives guilds, and its a leading member of the Lord Alliance, which I would argue means that many times Waterdeep uses its own troops to defend other cities in the North at its own expense to keep the North safe. Remember the Luskan/Ruathym war?
At any given time, any person can be beaten. Some good reasons for Alustriel's defeat have already been given, but the point is, everyone can have an off day, everyone can underestimate an opponent or overestimate themselves, and sometimes people take gambles in battle that pay off and cause the battle to shift unpredictably. None of this changes the nature of the characters discussed. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 23:12:30
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*sings* Where are they now? The broken heroes... (if anyone knows Saxon :-) )
Can we please get back to the topic?
Then again, heroes as some envision them aren't my piece of cake anyroad, so... do carry on :-P |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 02:45:29
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So,
Ed has settled the "Are the Chosen military geniuses" debate in his scroll. Can we now move on to actually discussing, you know, heroes in novels? :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 02:53:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
So,
Ed has settled the "Are the Chosen military geniuses" debate in his scroll. Can we now move on to actually discussing, you know, heroes in novels? :)
Indeed. For reference purposes -- the '06 replies scroll on pg. 28 -- THO's 18 Apr 2006 : 02:08:04 post.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 18 Apr 2006 02:55:35 |
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StromLancer
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 03:05:19
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quote:
Pre-emptive strikes? That would forever secure Silverymoon's future and such? You must be dreaming ;) Firstly, you would have to scour every last cavern and hold in the North and the Underdark to make sure you killed EVERY orc there. Have you counted how many orc hordes have been broken, or slain to the last tusker? And still they keep on coming, every now and then. You know that orcs breed like rabbits, don't you? The losses for any nation trying to scour the North of all the orcs would be devastating, inviting other races (trolls, goblins, hobgoblins, dragons, etc.) to attack the weakened races of good.
Surel, if Alustriel is so genius, pre-emptive strikes not necessarily means need military involvement or mercernary adventurers/assassins for the job. In this fantasy world with rich magic, and Alustriel so smart, then surely she can create magical constructs/monsters that are specifically designed or created andf tireless to kill orcs and chase orcs wherever they are found and impervious to the orc common weapons and divine power. Surely even the green Netherese Arcanist or Imaskari Archwizard can be smart enough to think of sending say shadesteel golems(very powerful killers) and chase orcs by tagging them with some magic tracking sense and using this killers to perform pre-emptive strikes and go round chasing orcs while the city and military can focus on other things.
quote:
An important part of any commander's tactical abilities are his diplomatic skills - and knowing when to use force and when not to. Although I, too, think that she is not exactly a "sword-in-hand" battlefield leader, I see her as a tactical genius when she needs to be (remember, she HAS seen centuries of violence and struggle in the North). Occasionally she might be a "frolicking" and fun-loving queen, but that is just one (a very mortal) side of her.
I can quite agree with you about diplomacy but one must know the truth of war or march blindly to one's death. In war, commanders must be willing to do whatever it takes to win and must be ruthless and cunning enough to win. If she is really a tactical genius, then surely she should had thought better to organize the battlefield before engaging the drow in Mithral Hall or the trolls outside Nesme, while she sits in safety, hundreds of Silvaeren soldiers are dying and cursing her name for sending out to die like that. A tactical genius commander would understand the truth, organize and mold the battlefield to his liking and be flexible enough to make changes. Also, seen one struggle or that struggle over some years or centuries doesn't make one a genius as she is distracted by other things. A true genius commander like what you claimed to be experienced over the years should be devoted to the cause of war, constantly engaging the enemy to keep up to date with the changing faces of war and analyzing, reviewing battle strategies to understand why that don't work and studying enemy movements and hierachies. Alustriel is simply not cut out for such work.
quote:
How so? Only, if you see how successful you are in magic duels as being directly related to IQ, yes, maybe then. But let’s remember that when their duel happened, before Sammaster lashed out, Alustriel considered him a friend and ally – a fellow Chosen of Mystra. Think of it this way: if one of the PCs in your group suddenly attacked his/her friends, would YOU use lethal force right away? You would probably think that he has been charmed/mind-controlled by an evil source, and try to subdue him/her, right? I think Alustriel was constrained by her feelings of friendship towards Sammaster, and this was a clear advantage to him over her. So, yes, he “outgunned” her because she didn’t use “full force” at the beginning of the duel.
A true genius would not had allowed such thoughts to choke up his fighting systems. If Alustriel was smart enough, she should had prepared herself for an inevitable confrontation for long even before the confrontation, Sammaster already displayed obvious signs of madness and even a novice/soldier/mage would be smart enough to get ready and make battle plans and start analyzing his battle stats and fighting capabilities. For Alustriel despite all her intelligence and wisdom, doesn't know the truth: That Evil unchecked grows, Evil tolerated will poison the whole system. If she was smart enough, she would had realized the truth and get ready for a fight. No, Alustriel didn't prepare for that but simply allowed herself to think that her current status and mage power would stand her against Sammaster, simply allowed pride of her own abilities to blind herself to Sammaster raw power, and this is a very common weakness in people of power who had lived so long that they forget their mortality and the need for preparation.
Sammaster is indeed very genius and coupled with madness, it is enough to drive him to get ready everything to ensure a 100% guranteed win and push aside morals and whatever that restrains the primal rage within onself, then that's when true genius and madness come together and work in perfect harmony. Evil always sings and perform so well through madness.
quote:
I do not think the Shades (in general) are anywhere near the Chosen in power, unless you refer to the Princes of Shade. They are powerful Netherese beings, and their leaders are the only ones who might be equal to a Chosen of Mystra, but still, The Shades do not have Silver Fire, or any other Mystra-given abilities.
The Chosen especially Alustriel teleported away like a coward from a good fight after suffering the slightest injury from darkblades wielded by the valiant Princes who though hard-pressed and wounded, never give up fighting despite the danger and the Chosen even whimpered at their wounds.
But the Shades are very powerful with their otherworldy abilities and magic that the Chosen do not have, they had been living in constant fighting on the Plane of Shadow and they are better than the Chosen when it comes to fighting, especially Telamont which the Chosen feared to fill him with Silverfire unless they wish to pull off the Elminister drop to the lower planes fiasco.
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Aye, perhaps in the ”Real World” perspective, but if you have access to portals and teleportation spells, this might be a completely different matter . Not to mention that Silverymoon holds many mages capable of breaking a siege with their spells only.
Remember Myth Glauroch fall? The elves had too much confidence in their mythal until the enemies walked up with the Gatekeeper Crystal and shattered their shielding mythal. Silverymoon main defense is their mythal and most of her defenders will be morale-deflated severely once the mythal falls. Spells won't serve all the time as the enemy expects the defenders to use spells to break the siege and smart ones would ready something to absorb or spell steal.
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Myth Drannor itself stood for 453 years. While that might not be a very long time in Elven terms, many generations of humans and halflings, and a few of dwarves, saw the place as a shining example. Further, what exactly did the people of Myth Drannor do to invite their demise? The whole issue of the Nefarious Three and being awakened by Garnet wasn't exactly something that could have been easily forseen or guarded against.
Actually, if they kept their isolationism policy, at least no foe would take notice of them or pay attention to them. It is because their so strong culture and magic that made them a shining beacon to Evil that Evil can no longer stand such an absurdity that Evil is determined to vanquish it. Also, the city was so decaying on all fronts that any army can walloped them easily. If the city wasn't decaying on on all fronts, they might had broke the Evil besieging them.
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Is Silverymoon's Mythal as powerful as the old elven True Mythals? No, but that is kind of the point, that its working toward the old Myth Drannan ideals, not that its already its equal. It may be easily corruptable compared to a True Mythal, but even most very power mages have no idea how to even start such a feat.
Malkizid and Countess Sarya and Araevin have disproved such illusions of invincibility.
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Waterdeep has always actively driven out assasin and theives guilds, and its a leading member of the Lord Alliance, which I would argue means that many times Waterdeep uses its own troops to defend other cities in the North at its own expense to keep the North safe. Remember the Luskan/Ruathym war?
It only makes the enemy more determined to become more powerful to snub the military of Waterdeep.
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Lead the war fate commands you to!
...but are you fighting the true enemy? |
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Halcyon
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 03:09:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
So,
Ed has settled the "Are the Chosen military geniuses" debate in his scroll. Can we now move on to actually discussing, you know, heroes in novels? :)
Indeed. For reference purposes -- the '06 replies scroll on pg. 28 -- THO's 18 Apr 2006 : 02:08:04 post.
Fairly convincing truth stated by THO. But Thanks for the reference. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 03:15:26
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So Alustriel is only smart if she acts like Batman and is so paranoid that she plans on how to defeat even people that she consideres her friends? I guess by extrapolation then Superman is a moron then . . .
Different people have different personalities, and this affects how they act, no matter how intelligent they are. If Khelbun had been best buddies with Sammaster, you might have a case for the whole, "should have had a thousand ways to defeat him worked out." Alustriel is more of an optimist.
Alustriel also seems to be trying to fix the orc horde problem not by just constantly smashing hordes of them every few decades, but maybe, just maybe, letting Obould form an actual country, a kingdom that can be traded with, that can have treaties, and is likely to start seeing constant warfar as detrimental to them. It may never work, but if it does?
Sorry to contribute to this part of it. I know, this seems to keep wandering more into second guessing how established characters act than about the types of heroes in novels and how they act, what we like about them, etc.
Perhaps this should all go in thread titled:
How I could have made all the major NPCs seem much smarter: How the last two decades of Realms fiction could have been better if I were in charge
Until then, I'm going to try and resist the urge to keep responding to the off topic drift.
Sorry my modding friends . . . |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 03:15:27
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StromLancer,
Clearly you are wrong on many of your comments and so I ask again, CAN we PLEASE move on. If not, then it's time to start editing and or removing posts. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 18 Apr 2006 03:17:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 03:55:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
StromLancer,
Clearly you are wrong on many of your comments and so I ask again, CAN we PLEASE move on. If not, then it's time to start editing and or removing posts.
Or simply locking the topic, since it has repeatedly strayed from the original point, despite many requests to get back on topic. I don't want to have to do that, but the refusal to stay on topic is getting old. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 04:15:32
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Understood Wooly and to save my topic.
* Please only discuss the qualities of the Chosen and their abilities if you're to discuss heroes.
Here's a way of continuing the topic
WHO *ARE* the big geniuses of military mind in the Realms on the Good side? How do they compare to the wicked? Would more realistic military tactics help your enjoyment?
(that help Wooly?)
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 18 Apr 2006 04:16:00 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 06:55:11
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BTW- To end that topic anyway, straight from Ed's Mouth
[“Ed, do the Chosen of Mystra have any tactical or military skill? Would you say they could lead armies and if so, would they lead them well?”]
The short, flippant answers are yes, yes, and yes. :}
My more responsible response will begin by limiting my reply, for NDA reasons, to Elminster and the Seven Sisters (not just Khelben is “tied up” by future plans or projects), and to explain that it’s hard for many Realms scribes to get a proper picture of the Seven, even if they read the published fiction and game products exhaustively, because there’s so much of the early personal histories of the Chosen that we haven’t had proper opportunities to present yet. I’m going to go one step farther, and drop Qilué out of this, also for NDA reasons.
Which leaves us with Elminster, Alustriel, Dove, Laeral, Alassra (The Simbul), Storm, and Syluné. All of them are servants of Mystra, and therefore can, through the Weave, consult with Mystra, Azuth, and all of Mystra’s servants (and so call on nigh-countless experience). Most of them hate doing so, because it strips them of personal freedom and claws at what’s left of their sanity. Oh, yes: most of them are, it must be remembered, no longer sane as most humans in the Realms would think of sanity. Moreover, increased contact with Mystra and her guidance pulls them ever-closer to her aims (the spreading of the use of magic). Those aims, by the way, are a large part of the reason why all of the Chosen seem concerned with promoting peace in the larger scale (keeping countries from going to war), even if they employ much violence on a personal level. It’s why Laeral, Alassra, and Alustriel, in their various ways and styles, are currently ruling or assisting in government, and why ALL of the Chosen (even those NDA’d and thus not discussed here) have in the past either tried their hand in ruling, or acted as “powers behind thrones” to support and guide rulers they liked or wanted to see reigning. Folk who’ve only read Realms novels (or a subset of Realms novels) or who have only “come to the Realms” recently have often missed the references to Stornanter and other now-vanished realms and city-states ruled by various Chosen.
All of the Chosen I’m discussing here have lived for centuries (far longer than most military individuals they will work with or against), and hence have more experience than almost any mortal foe in grand strategy, propaganda and morale, long-term manipulations, supply and foraging, living through both victory and defeat, dealing with the "fog of war," and battlefield tactics. Most mortals who have contact with a Chosen on more than a few occasions pass from awe to disappointment or contempt (they’re human after all, and pretty wilfull, have-their-own-way-or-else humans at that), then to wariness (they’re crazy, and unsafe to be noticed by, and really powerful) to respect (they’re geniuses after all).
Now, the term “genius” is one I tend to avoid, because it means something slightly different to almost every speaker who employs it. I cleave to the view that a genius is someone who can see things others can’t (when given the same information), who can create things or arrive at conclusions or new processes or views that others can’t reach (so there are superbly skilled forgers who can paint a painting or carve a relief-carving every bit as well as the genius who created the original, but couldn’t “see” and thus create that original in the first place to save their lives; they are always followers). There is also a genius in being able to handle more complexities (tasks, information) than others can, and still “see how it all fits together” and strive for a goal or visualized end result rather than just reacting to crisis after crisis and “surviving.” It’s hardly fair to non-Chosen to label any Chosen a “genius” at magic, because their access to the Weave allows them to manage magical effects and see (and therefore learn and understand) things about magic that mortal non-Chosen can only dimly perceive or grope at mastering, reaching accomplishments by luck or unseen Mystra-servant aid or just plain dogged hard work and repeated experimentation as often as by correctly “leaping ahead to what only they can see, but in doing so perceive how to get there.”
Please note that the Chosen ARE humans (yes, less than demigods), and are faltering in their faculties (though some of the Seven are still increasing their skills, particularly at rulership, and have a few centuries to go before they begin to decline as swiftly as, say, Elminster is now). They do make mistakes, and they can’t personally prevail against overwhelming odds or motivate fighting forces that don’t want to be motivated (they can magically overwhelm and control individuals, yes, but in the Realms turning military leaders or even rulers into your own mind-controlled robots doesn’t usually translate into anything close to precise command and control of lower-ranking forces).
This sort of personal control is all that is really left to Syluné now, and she is beloved in Shadowdale but has only a “Wise Witch but dead and gone now” reputation in the northern Dales, and no public profile to speak of, elsewhere. So she can hardly inspire or lead troops, beyond “whispering in the ear” of someone ELSE who’s trying to do so.
So now we’re down to Elminster, Alustriel, Dove, Laeral, The Simbul, and Storm.
All of the Chosen left on our list have had Harper involvement, and thus experience in spying, manipulating, behind-the-throne intrigue, and judging military strength and deployments (in many lands, over many years). Dove is the one who’s had an extensive military career (both mercenary and in the more-or-less disciplined forces of several realms), largely eschewing magic. The Simbul is the least stable and self-controlled (apt to “cut loose with spells”), and Elminster is the most experienced and wily. Alustriel, Laeral, and Storm display a marked preference for the soft word and superb acting to manipulate folk, rather than lashing out with swords and spells - - but, please note, they are thus manipulating those who DO lash out with swords and spells, and therefore commanding military forces, even if they don’t put on uniforms, get on horses, and ride out into “bloody-bannered fields” to do so. However, all of the Chosen listed here have in the past done all of those things, and fought both hand-to-hand and spell-to-spell, faced down foes and slaughtered foes, and commanded military forces. So, yes, they all can “lead armies.” And HAVE led armies in the past, though tactics and real-world situations change over time; we don’t know if they would, but it seems likely, given how much better informed about life in the Realms they are than most mortals. The real meat of your questions is: “. . . would they lead them well?”
Again, the answer depends on who’s doing the judging. A bored, mad, or weary-of-life commander (like all of the Chosen are, or can very easily be) can achieve both disasters and brilliant victories, exhibiting what some observers call “fearless” or “heroic” battlefield performances, and motivating troops to lay down their lives eagerly in the heat of battle. Is that “well”?
What’s kept most of the Chosen going for such long lives is their obsessive pursuit of some goals in the service of Mystra. This service and those goals hamper them in ways other mortal commanders aren’t trammeled (leading them to prefer peace over warfare, for instance), and may well weaken them in some military situations - - when compared to other mortal commanders.
THO has passed on to me some of the postings in the Heroes In Novels thread, and among them were some posts belittling Alustriel’s military leadership because she hasn’t launched a preemptive strike on Obould and his forces. This points out differing viewpoints once again: in many real-world modern-day countries such preemptive behaviour is seen as criminal lack of military discipline, clear court-martial offenses if not done with full government sanction beforehand (not wise tactics or military leadership at all) - - and a proper reading of SILVER MARCHES shows us that Alustriel (even though she may have established the confederation) really can’t act militarily on her own without endangering the unity of the Marches: she will be establishing the very precedent that she’s seeking to avoid, to keep Harbromm and Warcrown from doing just the same thing, and picking fights they’re not militarily ready to win. She also can’t act preemptively except by doing so without government sanction (in effect, “going rogue”). It might be smart tactics to clobber Obould before he can gather and consolidate his strength, but it’s very bad grand strategy - - IF you can see the “bigger picture.”
The very strength of the Chosen is also their weakness, to those who view military matters as “success here and now, and let others worry about tomorrow or down-the-road consequences.” The Chosen can see those down-the-road consequences all too clearly in most cases, and so seek to avoid many military confrontations that will result in disaster: you can’t promote the widespread public use of magic if most of your magic-using individuals are dead, and the rest are strictly controlled by military authority or church dictates.
So we’ll just have to see (and continue to debate) how “well” the Chosen perform, as the great tapestry that is the Realms unfolds before us. However, if you’re asking me are these Chosen I’ve discussed here capable of out-commanding in the field darn near every mortal leader I can see alive and on the scene in the Realms right now, the answer is a resounding YES. However, it must come with this caution attached: BUT THEY REALLY DON’T WANT TO, and may avoid doing so even when the result is disaster for a particular realm or city.
So saith Ed. Who can see the Realms more clearly than all of the rest of us, remember. (And spare me, please, all the ignorant moans about “Elminster being Ed’s favourite” or “the Chosen are all Mary Sues,” because such views are simply uninformed and wrong, and wilfully ignore the fact that the entire Realms is “Ed’s favourite,” and he’s given us thousands of characters in various shades of gray, good sides to all villains and vice versa.)
love to all,
THO |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 07:11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Understood Wooly and to save my topic.
* Please only discuss the qualities of the Chosen and their abilities if you're to discuss heroes.
Here's a way of continuing the topic
WHO *ARE* the big geniuses of military mind in the Realms on the Good side? How do they compare to the wicked? Would more realistic military tactics help your enjoyment?
(that help Wooly?)
On the good side, I think King Bruenor Battlehammer would be the best among the lot. He is devoted, adaptable and fear-denying(very good trait), flexible and had the knack of using whatever resources around him and molding terrain to his battle advantage which is admirable. Also, his ability to inpspire and fight alongside his fellows allows him a first-hand update on the field and make snap effective decisions on the spot. Of course, risk making himself the big target.
The Next one would be Steel Regent Alusair, though I had read little about her sadly, but her fighting experience during the Crusade and military training should allow her something of an edge on the field. I do not doubt she will become like King Azoun IV militarily one day.
Currently, I could think of these two...but King Bruenor remains the optimum one for now. The third one would be ex-King Zaor Moonflower but I will think of something to say about him first.
Oh yes, by the way, realistic military tactics coupled with a bit of imagination would be well-liked by me. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
Edited by - Shadovar on 18 Apr 2006 07:13:34 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 07:13:49
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To revive this particular thread I would like to pose something else.
I personally wouldn't mind seeing less "D&Dism" in the Forgotten Realms books to forward a controversial opinion. I think that it might be good for authors to explore something that's a little less "travel and encounters" in terms of story that have served the setting for a very long time. Some of the best storylines that have come out of FR are built on more location based storylines (The Homeland trilogy comes to mind---though R.A. is one of the more egrevious offenders in this respect of travel and kill stories).
The question of course becomes "What replaces this?"
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 10:22:04
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| This is a general question for all you guys out there. How powerful should Realmsian characters be portrayed in your opinion? Should they be the best or simply one of the many in the Realms? |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 11:06:15
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Actually (and I can't believe I am posting here again!), I am tired of heroes, have been tired of heroes for a long while. The type of hero as portrayed especially in comic books, never changing, never growing.
I mean come ON! There are, of course, some people who cannot adapt and will not grow. These are in most instances narrow-minded fanatics, at least IRL. But intelligent people will change over time, especially if they suffered significant losses.
Yet, we do not see much change with the 'figure-head' characters of the Realms, it's always the same routine, the one notable exception was the novel about the alcohilc Wulfgar.
Personally I would like to see more introspective heroes, less combat but actually people who have problems and deal with them without resorting to swordwhirling every 10 pages...
But that is just me. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 11:19:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
This is a general question for all you guys out there. How powerful should Realmsian characters be portrayed in your opinion? Should they be the best or simply one of the many in the Realms?
One of many. You can only have so many bests, and bests are harder to challenge. Someone who has to work at it is more interesting to read about. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 12:20:42
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| The whole of Realmslore can be read as a big essay about why the idea of a 'best warrior' or 'best wizard' is a nonsense. There's always someone with the edge over you in particular circumstances, and stories are about those circumstances. The weird 'who's the best?' threads represent at best a misguided attempt to get a handle on a huge bulk of published material, at worst an unhealthy, fascist power fetish. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 12:58:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The whole of Realmslore can be read as a big essay about why the idea of a 'best warrior' or 'best wizard' is a nonsense. There's always someone with the edge over you in particular circumstances, and stories are about those circumstances. The weird 'who's the best?' threads represent at best a misguided attempt to get a handle on a huge bulk of published material, at worst an unhealthy, fascist power fetish.
Hear, hear! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 18:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The whole of Realmslore can be read as a big essay about why the idea of a 'best warrior' or 'best wizard' is a nonsense. There's always someone with the edge over you in particular circumstances, and stories are about those circumstances. The weird 'who's the best?' threads represent at best a misguided attempt to get a handle on a huge bulk of published material, at worst an unhealthy, fascist power fetish.
Hear, hear!
Seconded.
These types of questions are to hard to answer. There's always someone better somewhere. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 19:30:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
To revive this particular thread I would like to pose something else.
I personally wouldn't mind seeing less "D&Dism" in the Forgotten Realms books to forward a controversial opinion. I think that it might be good for authors to explore something that's a little less "travel and encounters" in terms of story that have served the setting for a very long time. Some of the best storylines that have come out of FR are built on more location based storylines (The Homeland trilogy comes to mind---though R.A. is one of the more egrevious offenders in this respect of travel and kill stories).
The question of course becomes "What replaces this?"
A lack of D&Dism in D&D book! Unpossible!
:p
That seems to really be the current direction though; fights, magic, critters from the Monster Manual, etc. Not that I mind that. It is fully what I expect when I pick up a Realms novel, indeed, even look forward to. But that could easily be done in a single location, as you say, rather than a “travel and kill” method.
I do like the location based novels better as well, mostly since they tend to showcase that area of the Realms. I get a better mental picture that way.
What I would like to see is more based on a group of adventurers. To bleed into your next question…
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
This is a general question for all you guys out there. How powerful should Realmsian characters be portrayed in your opinion? Should they be the best or simply one of the many in the Realms?
…I’d like to point out that when you have a book with a central star character, that particular character tends to become a ‘Best’ character; one who can do just about anything and overcome impossible odds. A group dynamic (as rare as they are) tends to even out the characters, and provide more than just one ‘kryptonite’ for them.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 01:49:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
To revive this particular thread I would like to pose something else.
I personally wouldn't mind seeing less "D&Dism" in the Forgotten Realms books to forward a controversial opinion. I think that it might be good for authors to explore something that's a little less "travel and encounters" in terms of story that have served the setting for a very long time. Some of the best storylines that have come out of FR are built on more location based storylines (The Homeland trilogy comes to mind---though R.A. is one of the more egrevious offenders in this respect of travel and kill stories).
The question of course becomes "What replaces this?"
Hmm...a very difficult question to answer, but I think there may be a way to circumvent around that.
But I must strongly agree with Jindael that location based novels are good for mental pictures, as some novels I read got me entirely confused about where is the fight and when is it happening.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
This is a general question for all you guys out there. How powerful should Realmsian characters be portrayed in your opinion? Should they be the best or simply one of the many in the Realms?
To me, I seriously don't like heroes being portrayed as near-invincible and too omnipotent, can do it all because they are blessed by some god, over-experienced and thousand years old so know all sorts of spells and know all the badlands and baddies, for it simply makes the novel a one-sided book and one-dimensional book, and making the villains seem like novices who just know how to wield a club, for I had seen many of these before and I seriously disfavor such stuff. Such books are not simply worth the money.
Heroes should be portrayed as true heroes, correct, but in a mortal way and not some in some invincible way or so. I know of a few authors such as Richard.A.Knaack who managed to make their heroes glorious, legendary and yet "down-to-earth" heroes who are always hindered and reminded of their mortalities and failings here and there. Richard Knaack's heroes are always my all-time favorites and a excellent role model for would-be heroes.
Heroes should be mortals who had made mistakes here and there, yet perseveres on to achieve the goal despite the odds, impossibility and criticism, and doing their best and utmost to adapt to any situation by employing flexibility and creativity, and had known, understand and accepted the failings and limitations of a mortal.
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We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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LurkerofShadows
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 02:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
This is a general question for all you guys out there. How powerful should Realmsian characters be portrayed in your opinion? Should they be the best or simply one of the many in the Realms?
I say it is high time there be a revolutionary change, it is time for authors to rely more on creativity and imagination rather than watching and relying on statistics to write established heroes and any would-be heroes.
Troy is the first revolutionary hero to pave the way and no matter how criticized he is, he is a martyr for this revolutionary cause. For using stats to write heroes make them seem mechanical and less-life like, it seem like the reader is going through a DM and player session rather than immersing himself into the story environment. Allowing authors to write books free of statistics and beuracratic rules for established heroes, characters and would-be heroes, this would allow more creativity and imagination for the heroes to be written. This would make for a 3-D style book with life-like heroes.
Hence, to me, Realmsian heroes should be portrayed as "Down To Earth" heroes and practical. To make the hero the "best" hero, the authors should make the heroes earn their way to earning the title of "best" and "hero", this is through suffering the challenges of Time and challenges faced by mortals everyday and if the hero makes it, then I say the hero is considered worthy of "best" and "hero" titles and authors should make their heroes earn the title of "hero" and "best" and not making them look so imposing and superpowerful at the beginning. |
I walk through the ashes of the world, seeking the lost glory that was once mine, if I do not find it, never will I rest. |
Edited by - LurkerofShadows on 04 May 2006 02:08:21 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 02:57:38
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The travel-and-encounter structure isn't unique to D&D-based fantasy. Many fantasies, including Tolkien's, are structured this way.
I don't stat out my characters, and I don't consider myself to be obsessively devoted to the minutiae of the game rules. I do think, though, that to a certain degree and on a certain conceptual level, the game rules describe conditions in the Forgotten Realms, and if you ignore them entirely, you aren't doing an adequate job of depicitng that particular environment. |
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MaskedOne
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 05:27:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
This is a general question for all you guys out there. How powerful should Realmsian characters be portrayed in your opinion? Should they be the best or simply one of the many in the Realms?
I don't really care on the actual level of power. I enjoy exceptionally powerful archmages but I also enjoyed seeing Aeron Morieth who isn't epic and was never the most powerful character. He just had the right talents, character traits, skill and luck to accomplish what had to be done.
I do have a limited tolerance for some archtypal rookies. I do not like hot heads as protagonists regardless of ability. I despise braggarts. I do not like mages that are clinically incapable of keeping their tongue in check, no matter what amount of power you give them. Talkative, I'll take but if their mouth is more dangerous to them than the villain, I'll get ill tempered. Any trait that has me pounding my head against a wall saying "idiot" is a bad thing in excess. Small doses, fine, drown the book in it and I'm going to skip 60% of the text or more. I do not read excessive idiocy as writing out an amateur that needs to learn, I read it as excessive idiocy and it annoys the hell out of me no matter what the power level is. As long as I'm not reading and reciting "idiot, idiot, idiot", the character can be an utter novice or they can be more powerful than Elminster and there is a tolerable chance I will enjoy the book (and finish reading it).
Hmm, almost forgot something. I prefer comedy as a side item. I will not read or watch 99.999999999 (extend that line indefinitely)% of literature or movies that are designed and marketed mainly for comedic value. I enjoy the odd one liner and Torm's little tricks among the Knights of Myth Drannor. I do not enjoy comic relief used as the protagonist. Sorry, my sense of humor is finite and overloading it will simply overload my patience with whatever I'm reading or watching.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 11:24:03
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I think the bias against heroes being "the best" basically comes from the implication that they're never in danger. The reason that I think we should see more "the best" heroes at work is because it helps establishes that we're seeing characters that are exceptional in the Realms. I'd like more of a halo of destiny around the people I'm reading about.
To go back to the manga Berserk as an example, I think its important to the nature of the character of Guts that he's possibly the toughest and most inhuman man alive in the world he lives in aside from his enemy in Griffith. The idea that only Guts is capable of stopping foe is a main portion of the drama. The sense of danger is preserved because the character successfully defeats his enemies only by the skin of his teeth despite his awesome ability.
I think on a related note that its important for characters to furthermore be playing for very high stakes, not just for the Realms but also personal stakes as well. Cormyr remains one of the best series of the Forgotten Realms because Troy and Ed fully capture that Cormyr is likely to be utterly destroyed in this story. The Ghazaneths are invincible and its only by a miracle their defeat is earned. The invasion of Mirthil Hall also worked because it was entirely possible then that RA Salvatore would have destroyed it.
To be blunt, we don't see heroes suffer much in the Realms in a manner that drives them. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 11:47:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I think the bias against heroes being "the best" basically comes from the implication that they're never in danger. The reason that I think we should see more "the best" heroes at work is because it helps establishes that we're seeing characters that are exceptional in the Realms. I'd like more of a halo of destiny around the people I'm reading about.
I think on a related note that its important for characters to furthermore be playing for very high stakes, not just for the Realms but also personal stakes as well. Cormyr remains one of the best series of the Forgotten Realms because Troy and Ed fully capture that Cormyr is likely to be utterly destroyed in this story. The Ghazaneths are invincible and its only by a miracle their defeat is earned. The invasion of Mirthil Hall also worked because it was entirely possible then that RA Salvatore would have destroyed it.
To be blunt, we don't see heroes suffer much in the Realms in a manner that drives them.
Frankly said, I don't give a damn about "the best" heroes, unless it is treated like Ed did in "Elminster in Hell". But seriously, it is the bloody story that counts not the friggin royalty of Cormyr or anything else.
Is "A New Hope" a good movie because we have a princess in it? Nope, also Luke, Han and Chewy are NOT the best. Luke is a bumbling farmboy, Ben is a rheumy Jedi, Han is a down on his luck smuggler, and Chewy is a walking carpet. We have a compelling story.
Is it important to see the most powerful and most best  hero doing stuff, or is it more important to see a character develop from a lowly toothpick sharpener to a goblin-killing, village-saving hero? To always demand to only see the "best" doing something (and I do not want to get personal here) seems, to me, to mainly compensate one's own inferiority complex. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2006 : 14:54:59
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quote:
Is it important to see the most powerful and most best hero doing stuff, or is it more important to see a character develop from a lowly toothpick sharpener to a goblin-killing, village-saving hero? To always demand to only see the "best" doing something (and I do not want to get personal here) seems, to me, to mainly compensate one's own inferiority complex.
I disagree. Seeing the best doing something mostly implies, that you are reading about someone who possesses a lot of power. More power means more influence and overview. I love to read about politics in the Realms, and the most powerful characters give me the opportunity to read about that theme (the trilogy by Richard Baker is such an example, as is Richard Lee Byers's trilogy about Sammaster to a certain extent). |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Heroes in Novels
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