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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 03:32:08
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Warning contains spoils from Books 1 and 2 of The Last Mythal series
What deity would the Daemonfey worship?
Races of Faerun says Ghaundaur is the Fey'ri favoured deity but what about other deities and powerful outsiders such as Moander or Malkizid both of whom have stronger ties to the Daemonfey
Moander has potential ties to Sarya as House Dlardageth is originally from Cormanthor and the Dalelands is one of the regions where Moander had a lot of Elven worshipers
Malkizid has his own history with Sun elves dating back to the crown wars and more recent ties to the Daemonfey, What Domains would Malkizid grant to a Cleric? Could he grant them himself or would he need a true deity to help him out (Gargauth would be the most likely to help)
Note: I havent Read the 3rd book in the Last Mythal trilogy
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 03:54:21
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Malkizid's relationship with the daemonfey is . . . tempestuous. I wouldn't exactly look for them to worship him, per se, although any fey'ri that has broken with Sarya might do so. Ghaunadaur doesn't seem like a bad choice, and I can picture many of them following various demon lords that might have some interest to them . . . for some reason Graz'zt springs to mind here.
I can see Malkizid trying to sponsor clerics (if other demon lords/arch devils can, I don't know why he couldn't), though for some reason I can see him trying to corrupt full blooded elves, or perhaps even making inroads with the surface drow.
But for more info, definately read Final Gate. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 04:10:07
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| I could see Malkizid trying to become a Demi God with the portfolios of Evil Planetouched and Half Fiends |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 04:46:51
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But he only has direct links to the Baatezu and (politically, not even innately) to the 'Loths.
That doesn't take into account nearly all of the possible evil plantouched or fiends. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 05:14:27
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
But he only has direct links to the Baatezu and (politically, not even innately) to the 'Loths.
That doesn't take into account nearly all of the possible evil plantouched or fiends.
Champions of ruin descibes Makizid as being a Yugoloth Lord and an Archdevil in exile |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 05:23:23
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I didn't dispute that.
You can't be both a Yugoloth and a Baatezu at the same time. He fell into Baator, became a DEVIL, and then gained POLITICAL influence over the 'Loths (probably orchestrated by the General of Gehenna or the Oinoloth without his knowledge). |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 05:34:10
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With LE alignment he can have LE and NE followers which means the only evil Planetouched he could claim are CE ones now Tieflings arent restricted by Alignment at all and while Half fiends do have to be evil theres no restriction the on the Law vs Chaos axis
This means that Malkizid could "corrupt" CE Half "Demon" and convert them to a NE or LE alignment or at the very least to his service. Malkizid infact has a CE Draegloth and LE Half "Yugoloth" working for him (See page 157 of CoR) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 05:41:28
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No.. You don't get what I'm saying. This isn't based around alignment (at least not only). It's based around culture. Tieflings and Aasimar and the like don't have a cohesive culture, so there's no way he could get enough worship from them in general, on a wide-scale, to become a deity.
Not even Gargauth has any portfolios directly related to Planetouched, and he's been around far longer, and was in a position of greater power, than Malkizid. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 23 Jun 2006 05:42:55 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 05:59:15
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Page 120 of RoF also states that
Fenmarel Mestarine - the god of elven outcasts, appeals to the rare neutral Fey'ri; wishing to learn the secrets to survival in modern Faerun.
Shevarash - an elven deity consumed by a bitterness and a thirst for revenge against the Drow, has a small appeal to some Fey'ri. However, he does not grant them any powers as he reviles Fey'ri as much as drow.
Overall it appears Ghaundaur is the one |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 06:05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
Page 120 of RoF also states that
Fenmarel Mestarine - the god of elven outcasts, appeals to the rare neutral Fey'ri; wishing to learn the secrets to survival in modern Faerun.
Shevarash - an elven deity consumed by a bitterness and a thirst for revenge against the Drow, has a small appeal to some Fey'ri. However, he does not grant them any powers as he reviles Fey'ri as much as drow.
Overall it appears Ghaundaur is the one
Yeah but he doesnt really fit them I tending to lean more towards Moander due to his historical ties to the elves |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 06:36:01
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| Maybe some sort of heretical version of Corellon. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 07:05:48
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| That would make sense, because it's been made very specific in past lore that the Eldreth Veluuthra doesn't get spells from any of the Seldarine; so there are no heresies that would apply to evil worshippers. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 20:16:48
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Just seems a bit odd for Fey'ri to be worshipping something that most would consider a "drow god".. IIRC the drow (before they became drow) started worshipping the primordial ooze thing a long time before the fey'ri popped up.. And from what I've read, it seems the fey'ri still hold on to a number of pretensions of being haughty sun elves (but obviously better in their own estimation).. Given that's the case, why would they condescend to dealing with Ghaunadar if he is primarily associated with drow (and oozes - although oozes aren't reknowned for a highly developed culture so they don't really count).. Then again, if the Fey'ri are willing to get it on with demons, then maybe it isn't so far-fetched.. But still, to me it doesn't seem to fit in with what I envision the Fey'ri as being.. Maybe Ghaunadar could have tricked them into it (a cunning ancient ooze?)?.. I don't know, but to me, I would think Moander would be a better choice..
EDIT - Grammar |
Edited by - El Magnifico Uno on 23 Jun 2006 20:19:24 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 21:32:37
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| Yeah. I doubt that the other Elves at large would know much of Ghaundaur's involvement with the Ilythiiri of old. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 21:42:47
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| Considering how power-grasping they are, if Bane created an elvish version of himself, he'd prolly get some fey'ri worshippers. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 21:46:43
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Hehe...
"I am.. The Real Corellon!"
"But why can't we take you as our patron deity?"
"Chaotic Banite heresy!"
"OIC, very nice." |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 22:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Yeah. I doubt that the other Elves at large would know much of Ghaundaur's involvement with the Ilythiiri of old.
Please explain this to me. I thought I knew about the Crown wars but this statement is frustrating my best attempts at remembering any relevant info. Or are you referencing Ilythiiri pre-crown wars?  Please educate me. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 22:07:14
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| The Ilythiiri fell into the worship of Ghaundaur before the Crown Wars started. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2006 : 23:11:11
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| aren't fey'ri outsiders? thus they don't need a god to avoid getting stuck in The Wall, and they can spank enough without divine spells. |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
Edited by - keijemon on 23 Jun 2006 23:11:45 |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 00:47:47
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Well the Dlardrageth have been around for a heck of a long time, and Sarya wasn't exactly a spring chicken either.. Add into that the fact that (IIRC) Ghaunadaur wasn't worshipped exclusively by the Ilythiiri.. I seem to recall references of post-Crown Wars Lloth worshipping drow oppressing drow Ghuanadaur-ites throughout the ages.. Isn't there even a drow city of Ghaunadaur worshippers (or am I getting that confused with Vhaerun?).. In any case, I don't think it would be too far fetched to figure that anybody "in the know" would be aware that the predominant civilized worshippers of Ghuanaduar were drow.. And given the age, power, and resources of Sayra and House Dlardrageth (before their imprisonment) they would most certainly be the type of people who were "in the know".. So given that all of that deduction is correct, why would a bunch of haughty elitist sun elves, who just happened augement their bloodline with a little demon blood, decide to worship the same god their enemies do/did??
Well, because they just decided too.. They're outcasts, Ghuanadaur is kinda the god of elfy outcasts, so it just makes everything easy from a publishing standpoint.. He's spooky and evil, they're spooky and evil.. It all just sorta works out.. Stop over-analyzing it so much, and just accept it as the way that it is..
err... right.. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 01:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
aren't fey'ri outsiders? thus they don't need a god to avoid getting stuck in The Wall, and they can spank enough without divine spells.
Fey'ri are planetouched like Tieflings and Aasimars |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 05:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
Well the Dlardrageth have been around for a heck of a long time, and Sarya wasn't exactly a spring chicken either.. Add into that the fact that (IIRC) Ghaunadaur wasn't worshipped exclusively by the Ilythiiri.. I seem to recall references of post-Crown Wars Lloth worshipping drow oppressing drow Ghuanadaur-ites throughout the ages.. Isn't there even a drow city of Ghaunadaur worshippers (or am I getting that confused with Vhaerun?).. In any case, I don't think it would be too far fetched to figure that anybody "in the know" would be aware that the predominant civilized worshippers of Ghuanaduar were drow.. And given the age, power, and resources of Sayra and House Dlardrageth (before their imprisonment) they would most certainly be the type of people who were "in the know".. So given that all of that deduction is correct, why would a bunch of haughty elitist sun elves, who just happened augement their bloodline with a little demon blood, decide to worship the same god their enemies do/did??
Well, because they just decided too.. They're outcasts, Ghuanadaur is kinda the god of elfy outcasts, so it just makes everything easy from a publishing standpoint.. He's spooky and evil, they're spooky and evil.. It all just sorta works out.. Stop over-analyzing it so much, and just accept it as the way that it is..
err... right..
I don't think so... The fey'ri still think along elven lines, for the most part. They'll not willingly turn to a drow deity. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 07:32:36
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quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
Well the Dlardrageth have been around for a heck of a long time, and Sarya wasn't exactly a spring chicken either.. Add into that the fact that (IIRC) Ghaunadaur wasn't worshipped exclusively by the Ilythiiri.. I seem to recall references of post-Crown Wars Lloth worshipping drow oppressing drow Ghuanadaur-ites throughout the ages.. Isn't there even a drow city of Ghaunadaur worshippers (or am I getting that confused with Vhaerun?).. In any case, I don't think it would be too far fetched to figure that anybody "in the know" would be aware that the predominant civilized worshippers of Ghuanaduar were drow.. And given the age, power, and resources of Sayra and House Dlardrageth (before their imprisonment) they would most certainly be the type of people who were "in the know".. So given that all of that deduction is correct, why would a bunch of haughty elitist sun elves, who just happened augement their bloodline with a little demon blood, decide to worship the same god their enemies do/did??
Well, because they just decided too.. They're outcasts, Ghuanadaur is kinda the god of elfy outcasts, so it just makes everything easy from a publishing standpoint.. He's spooky and evil, they're spooky and evil.. It all just sorta works out.. Stop over-analyzing it so much, and just accept it as the way that it is..
err... right..
Actually the following is the god of elven outcasts, according to RoF
Fenmarel Mestarine - the god of elven outcasts, appeals to the rare neutral Fey'ri; wishing to learn the secrets to survival in modern Faerun.
Page 111 of faiths and pantheons, spells out more on Ghaundaur
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Edited by - scererar on 24 Jun 2006 07:40:50 |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 08:08:17
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scererar:
quote:
Actually the following is the god of elven outcasts, according to RoF - Fenmarel Mestarine
Right, my apologies, I should have been more explicit.. Please consider the appropriate phrase to have read "They're outcasts, Ghuanadaur is kinda the god of drow-ish outcasts".. See F&P pg 111 for reference, though truthfully I pulled the first reference off of the FR-Wiki.. That better?
Wooly:
quote:
I don't think so... The fey'ri still think along elven lines, for the most part. They'll not willingly turn to a drow deity.
Umm... Yeah that was kinda the point I was trying to make in a mildly sarcastic tongue-in-cheek manner (my bad - should have used an emote).. As I mentioned earlier, it would seem to me that Moander would be a better choice.. |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 08:49:37
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Mmmm... Weirdness.. Coulda sworn I had first read that on the wiki, must of been some other site.. Oh well, doesn't matter where I first saw it, I guess since we have the F&P reference.. In any case, Ghanduar is apparently the god of drow outcasts as stated right there in F&P on pg 111 which you also seem to have mentioned.. As far as the elf god of outcasts for non-drow, I guess you'd be dead on with Fenmarel..
And yeah, Moander is a dead god, but does anything truly stay dead in FR? I mean really now, in your 20+ years you must have noticed that villains seem to be rather tenacious.. How'd Lovecraft put it? "That is not dead which can eternal lie".. Plus, since we're postulating ideas outside the "canon" then we can get away with using a suppossedly dead god.. It's an exercise in creativity, we're not writing a rulebook here.. :-P
And of course, had I bothered to actually read RoF I would have known the answer to my original question.. Fey'ri started worshipping That Which Lurks about a century ago when he/it manifested to one of the Fey'ri sub-houses.. "The fact that most of these sun elves now worship a drow deity is evidence of how corrupt they have become.".. Well there's the answer right there in black & white.. Doh!.. Oh, and it even mentions Fenmarel as appealling to the "rare neutral fey'ri".. Go figure..
And sorry to hear about your tact.. That can happen when it gets late.. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 16:59:30
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Moander isn't fully dead yet... A piece of Ol' Slimy is still hanging out in Tsornyl.
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 17:42:12
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| Another piece of Old Mouldy would also appear to be in Mysteries of the Moonsea (although I fell asleep AGAIN trying to read that chapter so I may have it wrong). |
Best
E |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 03:32:53
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I didn't dispute that.
You can't be both a Yugoloth and a Baatezu at the same time. He fell into Baator, became a DEVIL, and then gained POLITICAL influence over the 'Loths (probably orchestrated by the General of Gehenna or the Oinoloth without his knowledge).
Not all Devils are Baatezu, and you don't have to be a Yugoloth to be a lord of them. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 01:04:52
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It wasn't the Devil part that annoyed me (Malagard was not one), but rather the fact that he's BOTH.
The yugoloths are without an exception elitists and race-o-centric, and obssessed with purity. They created two new ENTIRE races of fiends JUST to get rid of non-Neutral Evil taints. Do you really think they'd LEGITIMATELY allow a LE-tainted lord to rise among their ranks? They outcasted Apomps for having a Chaotic taint, and he was a BAERNALOTH!
Hell. No. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 01:58:24
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Ive decided to go with Moander
A flesh out version of the NPC can be found here
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7153
Feel free to coment |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 26 Jun 2006 02:00:39 |
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Topic |
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Daemonfey Cleric of WHAT?
