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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 10:41:00
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Is there any published (or online) material relating to Moander that isn't in Lost Empires or any of the AzureBonds/Saurials/Finder novels?
Muchly thankus.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 11:18:53
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Old Moldy had a detailed write-up in Faiths & Avatars, one of the 2E trilogy of deity books for the Realms -- a wonderful resource for any Realms fan. He's also mentioned in the Tsornyl section of Volo's Guide to the Dalelands, available as a free download from the Wizards downloads page.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Jul 2006 11:19:19 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 13:08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang
Is there any published (or online) material relating to Moander that isn't in Lost Empires or any of the AzureBonds/Saurials/Finder novels?
Muchly thankus.
Its not online material but theres a section in Powers of Faerun called Monader rises from the rot |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 13:33:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Old Moldy had a detailed write-up in Faiths & Avatars, one of the 2E trilogy of deity books for the Realms -- a wonderful resource for any Realms fan. He's also mentioned in the Tsornyl section of Volo's Guide to the Dalelands, available as a free download from the Wizards downloads page.
See also Cormanthyr, Demihuman Deities, Code of the Harpers and the Heroes' and Villains' Lorebooks.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 17:49:16
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| The Curse of the Azure Bonds module as well that ties in with the novel of the same name, both which tie into the old SSI game of the same name. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 19:42:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Old Moldy had a detailed write-up in Faiths & Avatars, one of the 2E trilogy of deity books for the Realms -- a wonderful resource for any Realms fan. He's also mentioned in the Tsornyl section of Volo's Guide to the Dalelands, available as a free download from the Wizards downloads page.
See also Cormanthyr, Demihuman Deities, Code of the Harpers and the Heroes' and Villains' Lorebooks.
On which page in Code of the Harpers is Moander mentioned? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 23:49:00
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| Pages 36, and 61. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 13:18:17
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Thanks, Kajehase!  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 15:46:22
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| Just a minor disclaimer - I don't remember if those are the physical pages or the ones of the pdf I used to check. *shrugs* They won't be too far away if it's the latter, though. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 15:53:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Just a minor disclaimer - I don't remember if those are the physical pages or the ones of the pdf I used to check. *shrugs* They won't be too far away if it's the latter, though.
In the printed copy... the Moander references occur on pgs. 36 and 61.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 10:37:22
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Hello again.
Thanks everyone for the info and the pointers.
I have a couple more Moander-y questions now:
1) Timeline: We keep hearing that Moander is an ancient deity of rot and decay, but how ancient? When did he first appear and when did his cult die?
2) When did his corruption of Tyche result in her split into Tymora and Beshaba?
3) In Faiths & Pantheons it states that Lolth has enjoyed masquerading as Moander since the Time of Troubles - but how, where, when and to what end? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 11:13:56
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1) I think he was around during the time of Netheril.
2) It was during the Dawn Cataclysm. We don't have an exact date on this one; some designers say it happened at multiple points in time. However, there are also indications it happened around 700 DR.
3) To what end? More power for her. How? Someone prays to Moander, she grants them spells and such. Where? Wherever. When? Well, we don't know when she started doing that... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 11:35:22
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quote:
1) I think he was around during the time of Netheril.
I thought so too but I don't know why I think that.
quote:
2) It was during the Dawn Cataclysm. We don't have an exact date on this one; some designers say it happened at multiple points in time. However, there are also indications it happened around 700 DR.
The Dawn Cataclysm is when Lathander went a bit woo-woo and in trying to eradicate evil, instead ended up doing harm, right? Resulting in the death of Helm's lover and ... what else?
quote:
3) To what end? More power for her. How? Someone prays to Moander, she grants them spells and such. Where? Wherever. When? Well, we don't know when she started doing that...
Since Moander isn't completely destroyed or can at least rise again if an avatar or an aspect of a deity can be lured into Tsornyl (as stated in the Power of Faerun's "Moander Rises From The Rot") she should take care just where she masquerades as him.
With this in mind, can I pose a question 4 now too? Thanks.
4) If Moander should regain his power in the manner stated above what would happen to the god Finder? Since his portfolio is only very loosely based on Moander's and doesn't incoporate rot and decay, I imagine Moander would be restored (at least in part) and Finder would be unaffected. Yes?
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Edited by - Na-Gang on 31 Jul 2006 11:42:48 |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 11:54:38
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| I thought Finder's portfolio did include rot and decay. At least in Finders Bane he mentions something along the lines of how he's still getting used to having his portfolio, and trying to see the good side in rot and decay hehe. |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 12:01:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
I thought Finder's portfolio did include rot and decay. At least in Finders Bane he mentions something along the lines of how he's still getting used to having his portfolio, and trying to see the good side in rot and decay hehe.
It was my understanding that that aspect of his portfolio had been changed to 'the cycle of life' or words to that effect, which would include birth, growth, age, death, rot, and decay which overlap his portfolio with other living deities like Cyric, Kelemvor, Lathander, Chauntea, as well as the 'dead' deities Moander and Myrkul. So it's only loosely based. No? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 14:09:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang
Hello again.
Thanks everyone for the info and the pointers.
I have a couple more Moander-y questions now:
1) Timeline: We keep hearing that Moander is an ancient deity of rot and decay, but how ancient? When did he first appear and when did his cult die?
The Netheril boxed set contains some of Moander's earliest recorded appearances in the Realms.
quote:
2) When did his corruption of Tyche result in her split into Tymora and Beshaba?
The Dawn Cataclysm.
There's no specific date for this. Speculation abounds however. References sources include Faiths & Avatars, Faiths & Pantheons, and the FRCS 3e (pg. 264)...
You're never going to find a complete history of the Dawn Cataclysm, nor it's total effects. The most we have are bits and pieces scattered throughout the Realmslore. This is mostly due to the fact that writers at TSR/WotC haven't really attached much weight to the event.
What we know --
Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm. This is mentioned in a couple of places... So the Dawn Cataclysm must have happened in 8th Century DR -- from 700 to 799 DR, somewhere in there...
Interestingly, it's also said that the Dawn Cataclysm presaged the Fall of Myth Drannor. The attacks on the City of Song started in 712, and ended in 714. So that puts the Dawn Cataclysm at the early part of that century.
However, there are references to Tyche AFTER the fall of Myth Drannor (Seven Sisters, p.7), other references link the ascension of Azuth with the Dawn Cataclysm, and Ed himself in a few posts here and there has made it clear that some aspects of the church of Tyche continued to think of themselves in that light even after the split into Tymora and Beshaba.
I think it's far simpler to leave the Dawn Cataclysm in its own godly event category and not try to give it meaning in a temporal sense. Considering it was a conflict between the gods, it may have happened millenia ago as mortals reckon time - its effects taking a very long time to filter through.
Similarly, Eric Boyd has postulated that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "out of time" in the sense that it could have happened at any point in the mortal timeline, but because of its 'otherworldy'-nature, it happened in the mortal realms at a time that doesn't correspond with our concept of how time works. In other words, godly events can't be dated by mortal means - unless such godly events have a mortal interface (i.e. the Time of Troubles).
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2006 : 15:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I think it's far simpler to leave the Dawn Cataclysm in its own godly event category and not try to give it meaning in a temporal sense. Considering it was a conflict between the gods, it may have happened millenia ago as mortals reckon time - its effects taking a very long time to filter through.
Similarly, Eric Boyd has postulated that the Dawn Cataclysm occurred "out of time" in the sense that it could have happened at any point in the mortal timeline, but because of its 'otherworldy'-nature, it happened in the mortal realms at a time that doesn't correspond with our concept of how time works. In other words, godly events can't be dated by mortal means - unless such godly events have a mortal interface (i.e. the Time of Troubles).
I can kind of see their point, but I have always understood the Dawn Cataclysm was like "another" Time of Troubles and it should have had some definite and direct repercussions in the mortal realms, at least with each power's clergy
the temporal point is interesting but problematic...as there are definite "arrivals" of gods in the realms that have been documented, like Tyr and the Untheric/Mulhorandi pantheons, plus not to mention the birth/creation of new powers...but if they live "outside" of the Temporal Flow (a la Chronomancer) then they know everything that will ever happen as well as everything that has happened...and what does that imply to the outer planes?
I think the Dawn Cataclysm is just a case of no one taking the ball over the Dawn Cataclysm and Ed and the other designers haven't decided what to do with the "teasers" that have been given about the event and that is why the different canon contradicts itself or they do have a plan for the Dawn Cataclysm and won't reveal it (hinted about the [somewhat lame] rising of Lathander and his second attempt of whatever caused the Dawn Cataclysm)
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2006 : 16:10:47
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Well, I actually prefer to not have to many set dates on older history as that takes away some of the mystery and myth from the event. As the Dawn Cataclysm now stands it can be used as a theory and explanation for several older events. The same goes for Moander as a sort of primeval terror that has been around for as long as life has existed.
I already feel I know to many details about Netheril and the elven kingdoms sometimes, as events so many thousand years ago should be somewhat mysterious in my book, even with the long lives of elves. But on the other side, my bad memory makes me forget these details anyway so it actually seldom matters.
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2006 : 16:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, I actually prefer to not have to many set dates on older history as that takes away some of the mystery and myth from the event. As the Dawn Cataclysm now stands it can be used as a theory and explanation for several older events. The same goes for Moander as a sort of primeval terror that has been around for as long as life has existed.
I already feel I know to many details about Netheril and the elven kingdoms sometimes, as events so many thousand years ago should be somewhat mysterious in my book, even with the long lives of elves. But on the other side, my bad memory makes me forget these details anyway so it actually seldom matters.
I think so too..but I am trying to do this big, milennia spanning history to submit here and it would be nice to have a round-about date...it seems to me that the Realms History is measured but the "World shaking Events" that occured every few thousand years or so (the ToT, Fall of Netheril, The Sundering, Tearfall, etc.) and somewhere between the ToT and the Fall of Netheril there is the Dawn Cataclysm...
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2006 : 16:27:05
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Working from that perspective I agree with you. It becomes somewhat confusing that nothing is determined about the Dawn Cataclysm when we know so much about events far older than that.
One explanation could maybe be that the events took place in the planes and not on the surface of Toril? I am purely guessing here, but that could explain the mysteriousness of the events.
P:S: Good luck with the history. |
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Trace_Coburn
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
137 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 13:55:32
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I recently managed to snag Cormyr: A Novel out of the city library and found a cute little touch to add to the history:
In 432DR, during the occupation later known as the Pirate Years, the town of Dheolur was assaulted and sacked by loyalist forces led by King Duar, and both Magrath the Minotaur and the traitor Dheolur family were slain in the fighting. The loyalist farmer/spy who made the attack possible was named Dhedluk, and presumably this is how the town got its current name.
The relevance? The Dheolur's manor was erected atop a fallen temple to a 'minor godling' named Moander - and one of the Dheolur nobles killed in the battle manifested characteristics suggesting that she had received some manner of 'gifts' from it.... 
(This reference was found in ch.16, p.244-245 of the paperback version. Hope this helps. ) |
D&D collection: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual I, Complete Arcane, Arms & Equipment Guide.
FR sourcebook collection: Dragons of Faerūn, Faiths & Pantheons, FRCS, Lords of Darkness, Monsters of Faerūn, Player's Guide to Faerūn, Power of Faerūn, Races of Faerūn, Silver Marches.
I just got back into this, okay? Give me time (or better yet money) - I'll catch up soon enough. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4273 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 01:16:15
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>Dalor Darden Casts Rez Scroll<
Stay tuned, I've found the origins of Moander...but it will not be revealed until I am done with my "The Ride" project! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Moander
