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Nokom
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 22:39:57
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Why dont we see much of this? In fr novels are any novel that I know of ya dont see much space. Spelljammer tells us that it can be done but it is never done. Any idea why this is?
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 22:48:38
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| Wizards only publishes two campaign settings because the great number of settings published in the 1990s, dividing the market, is part of what bankrupted TSR. Without a Spelljammer setting in print, references to spelljamming are kept brief so as not to confuse those who know nothing about it. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 22:52:55
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One or two of the six Spelljammer novels do take place on Toril and Realmspace as well.
Otherwise there's many references to spelljammer in 2e to 3/3.5e FR. Blackstaff novel also, according to Steven, has a helm that is a jammer helm. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Nokom
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 23:16:31
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| So is sj still counted in the canon? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 23:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Nokom
So is sj still counted in the canon?
Yes, since as I said there's references to it in current FR lore. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 01:23:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
One or two of the six Spelljammer novels do take place on Toril and Realmspace as well.
The SPELLJAMMER novel -- Into the Void -- features Nimbral. It actually expands upon what was written about the realm in the Realmspace accessory.
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Edited by - The Sage on 04 Aug 2006 01:25:25 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 01:25:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Nokom
So is sj still counted in the canon?
Yes, since as I said there's references to it in current FR lore.
Aye.
Spelljammers still exist in FR.
Both the FRCS and Rich Baker confirm that spelljamming still exists in the 3e FR cosmology. These are the earliest indications, with several more that followed in successive 3e FR sourcebooks.
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 02:21:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye.
Spelljammers still exist in FR.
Both the FRCS and Rich Baker confirm that spelljamming still exists in the 3e FR cosmology. These are the earliest indications, with several more that followed in successive 3e FR sourcebooks.
Hi Sage
If the FRCS and Rich Baker confirm that spelljamming still exists then does that mean the Spelljamming cosmology also exists? Is Aber-Toril in a Crystal Sphere flaoting in the Phlog? Are the stars just giant gems in the sphere and are there the other civilizations on the other planets (like the one on Selune?)
On a related note I remember somewhere saying that Khelban thought Spelljamming was the way of the future for the Realms and Waterdeep so it's not surprising taht the tower had a helm (though it looks like he got that one custom made from the Arcane) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 02:24:55
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye.
Spelljammers still exist in FR.
Both the FRCS and Rich Baker confirm that spelljamming still exists in the 3e FR cosmology. These are the earliest indications, with several more that followed in successive 3e FR sourcebooks.
Hi Sage
If the FRCS and Rich Baker confirm that spelljamming still exists then does that mean the Spelljamming cosmology also exists? Is Aber-Toril in a Crystal Sphere flaoting in the Phlog? Are the stars just giant gems in the sphere and are there the other civilizations on the other planets (like the one on Selune?)
On a related note I remember somewhere saying that Khelban thought Spelljamming was the way of the future for the Realms and Waterdeep so it's not surprising taht the tower had a helm (though it looks like he got that one custom made from the Arcane)
We really don't know the answer to this because WOTC hasn't said exactly how it exists since each crystal sphere, in most cases, is now it's own infinite prime material plane instead of having the 1 infinite prime material plane that has the enclosed crystal spheres and the phlo.
However, the other planets and Selune do have civilizations since WOTC hasn't overwritten the Realmspace sourcebook except to make the sphere of Realmspace into a infinite prime material plane. Greyhawk also has a seperate and different prime material plane, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 Aug 2006 02:27:36 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 02:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
If the FRCS and Rich Baker confirm that spelljamming still exists then does that mean the Spelljamming cosmology also exists?
Sort of. As was stated above, there are spelljamming references in several FR (and generic D&D) sources now.
Still, we have no specific lore on the proper state of spelljamming in 3e as yet.
quote:
Is Aber-Toril in a Crystal Sphere flaoting in the Phlog?
Yes, it is part of the Torilian/Realmspace crystal sphere. See Ed's '05 replies for his take on the state of spelljamming and crystal spheres in FR.
quote:
Are the stars just giant gems in the sphere and are there the other civilizations on the other planets (like the one on Selune?)
The stars in Realmspace are actually portals to the Plane of Radiance, so says the Realmspace sourcebook.
The "giant gems in the sphere" is actually from Greyhawk. The stars are embedded jewels in the crystal sphere of Greyspace.
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Edited by - The Sage on 04 Aug 2006 02:42:13 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 02:46:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The SageThe stars in Realmspace are actually portals to the Plane of Radiance, so says the Realmspace sourcebook.
The "giant gems in the sphere" is actually from Greyhawk. The stars are embedded jewels in the crystal sphere of Greyspace.
Oh yeah, sorry...got mixed up...
at least it still allows the scro to invade Toril (past campaign of mine)I always thought because of Evermeet the scro would try to establish a secret base in Toril 
I wonder what the Witchlight Maurader in erd Ed would look like?  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 04:10:51
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
at least it still allows the scro to invade Toril (past campaign of mine)I always thought because of Evermeet the scro would try to establish a secret base in Toril
I dunno... I think the scro would try a more straight-forward approach. There's little need for a secret base when you can just launch a good aerial bombardment and drop some witchlight marauders to mop up the survivors. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 13:56:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... I think the scro would try a more straight-forward approach. There's little need for a secret base when you can just launch a good aerial bombardment and drop some witchlight marauders to mop up the survivors.
I don't think so as (1) there are a few elven Armada-Class ships in the Toril sphere plus who knows how many other elven battle ships as Evermeet is one of the largest Imperial Elven bases in the Spheres (the War Captains Box set describes it) (2) they don't have a witchlight marauder to do that, the marauders were destroyed or hidden by the elves after the First Unhuman War...there is a pair of Spelljammer modules that involves stopping the humanoids from getting a Lv 2 or 3 marauder and (3) the scro are (military-wise) super intelligent and charismatic warriors and to save on causalities and material it would be easier to subvert the existing humanoid populations on Toril and then attack Evermeet again like the past Evermeet Invasion
(luckily they weren't involved in the first Invasion a small fleet of battlewagons and mantis ships crewed by scro marines would have been unstoppable)
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 16:53:43
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So if Toril is still consitered a Crystal Sphere, I wonder what happened to Krynn and Athas. For some reason Cam Banks says now that Krynn has absolutly no connections with any other campaign setting as of third edition and planescape, spelljammer, and all that stuff which was once part of DL is now gone.
Is it just me or is WoTC being very inconsistant. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 16:59:58
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With the way the DL cosmology is now set up in 3e, planar travel and spelljamming to Krynnspace from Realmspace is extremely difficult, if not completely impossible. Though, it has been *speculated* on the DL.com boards by several designers that if a planar were to travel far enough through either the Shadow or Astral planes in Krynnspace... they may reach a point where these planes touch those of other crystal spheres.
Travel to Athas from any crystal sphere was always an *issue* for adventurers regardless of the setting mechanics and cosmology used. The barrier in Dark Sun is called The Gray. It didn't completely prevent planar travel, though it made it extremely difficult. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 04 Aug 2006 17:06:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 17:28:55
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... I think the scro would try a more straight-forward approach. There's little need for a secret base when you can just launch a good aerial bombardment and drop some witchlight marauders to mop up the survivors.
I don't think so as (1) there are a few elven Armada-Class ships in the Toril sphere plus who knows how many other elven battle ships as Evermeet is one of the largest Imperial Elven bases in the Spheres (the War Captains Box set describes it) (2) they don't have a witchlight marauder to do that, the marauders were destroyed or hidden by the elves after the First Unhuman War...there is a pair of Spelljammer modules that involves stopping the humanoids from getting a Lv 2 or 3 marauder and (3) the scro are (military-wise) super intelligent and charismatic warriors and to save on causalities and material it would be easier to subvert the existing humanoid populations on Toril and then attack Evermeet again like the past Evermeet Invasion
(luckily they weren't involved in the first Invasion a small fleet of battlewagons and mantis ships crewed by scro marines would have been unstoppable)
1) It wouldn't take a lot to either tie up the fleet, elsewhere, or simply sneak in, under their noses. Besides, FR lore doesn't say very much at all about the Elven Imperial Navy having a base on Evermeet. There's a couple of places like that where FR lore contradicts SJ lore; even though Spelljammer was my first love with TSR, I defer to Realmslore, now.
Oh, and keep in mind that the Mantis is specifically designed to combat elven ships. Plus, get a few ogre Mammoths, and a bunch of goblin Blades, and the Monarchs are out of the equation. The Monarchs are having to watch out for Wa Tsunamis, anyway.
2) Nothing says they couldn't have found another of the hidden witchlight marauders, or made a couple of new ones... Space is any awfully big amount of territory.
3) You're right about the scro military skills. But a surprise aerial assault involves less preparation time, less logistical concerns (like how to get the native humanoids to Evermeet), and less casualties than leading armies of humanoids to the attack.
If we were talking about attacking Evereska, Myth Drannor, or other mainland elven strongholds, I'd agree with you. But Evermeet? Nope, the aerial assault is quickest and easiest. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 04 Aug 2006 17:32:30 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 17:38:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
1) It wouldn't take a lot to either tie up the fleet, elsewhere, or simply sneak in, under their noses. Besides, FR lore doesn't say very much at all about the Elven Imperial Navy having a base on Evermeet. There's a couple of places like that where FR lore contradicts SJ lore; even though Spelljammer was my first love with TSR, I defer to Realmslore, now.
2) Nothing says they couldn't have found another of the hidden witchlight marauders, or made a couple of new ones... Space is any awfully big amount of territory.
I agree with everything you said...(and I thought Spelljammer was vastly underrated   ) I think the problem is there was not any more canon on how the 2nd Unhuman War was going...If I remember right the Scro got the jump on the Elves in the beginning but then it developed into an equal fight. The question is do the Scro have enough ships to invade Toril Space and do the Elves have enough ships to defend Toril space?
quote:
3) You're right about the scro military skills. But a surprise aerial assault involves less preparation time, less logistical concerns (like how to get the native humanoids to Evermeet), and less casualties than leading armies of humanoids to the attack.
If we were talking about attacking Evereska, Myth Drannor, or other mainland elven strongholds, I'd agree with you. But Evermeet? Nope, the aerial assault is quickest and easiest.
I agree with that post-Evermeet Invasion but with the Towers of the Sun and Moon gone how vulnerable is Evermeet now? especially with so much of their forces on the mainland now (i.e. the Crusade?).After the Invasion is there more Imperial and Divine defenses to prevent an aerial assult? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 19:08:13
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| There was an issue of Dungeon Mag about 2 years back that covered Spelljamming in 3rd edition. Now, I don't believe it covered the interplanar or inter-crystalsphere logistics, but it did cover things like ship combat, a little on the races involved, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 19:18:48
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| There has been bits and pieces of Spelljammer redone in 3rd Ed in the Dragon Magizine...but no real canon as far as I know... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 21:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There was an issue of Dungeon Mag about 2 years back that covered Spelljamming in 3rd edition. Now, I don't believe it covered the interplanar or inter-crystalsphere logistics, but it did cover things like ship combat, a little on the races involved, etc....
Yeah, but they didn't really stay true to the source material. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 01:14:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There was an issue of Dungeon Mag about 2 years back that covered Spelljamming in 3rd edition. Now, I don't believe it covered the interplanar or inter-crystalsphere logistics, but it did cover things like ship combat, a little on the races involved, etc....
No, it doesn't.
SJ is as SJ was detailed in the Adventures in Space 2e boxed set. The "Shadow of the Spider Moon" module in Polyhedron #151 wasn't SJ in 3e... but rather an interpretation of a SJ-ing like setting in 3e. The module is set completely within its own solar system -- and while it did contain details for "interplanetary" travel it never actually gave any particular focus to the Phlogiston or Crystal Spheres.
Yes, it does provide 3e mechanics for SJing aspects... such as helms and Wildspace travel... but it also leaves out a considerable amount of what made SJ the exciting setting that it was. SotSM doesn't set SJ in a cosmology all its own... rather presents a solitary Crystal Sphere that could be placed anywhere within the Phlogiston should you wish to draw upon the older lore for the setting.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 04:55:50
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
There was an issue of Dungeon Mag about 2 years back that covered Spelljamming in 3rd edition. Now, I don't believe it covered the interplanar or inter-crystalsphere logistics, but it did cover things like ship combat, a little on the races involved, etc....
No, it doesn't.
SJ is as SJ was detailed in the Adventures in Space 2e boxed set. The "Shadow of the Spider Moon" module in Polyhedron #151 wasn't SJ in 3e... but rather an interpretation of a SJ-ing like setting in 3e. The module is set completely within its own solar system -- and while it did contain details for "interplanetary" travel it never actually gave any particular focus to the Phlogiston or Crystal Spheres.
Yes, it does provide 3e mechanics for SJing aspects... such as helms and Wildspace travel... but it also leaves out a considerable amount of what made SJ the exciting setting that it was. SotSM doesn't set SJ in a cosmology all its own... rather presents a solitary Crystal Sphere that could be placed anywhere within the Phlogiston should you wish to draw upon the older lore for the setting.
I don't think it even did a good job with what little it did. I was so disappointed when I read over that one. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 06:01:15
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Agreed.
I was hoping for little more attention on Phlogiston travel and the dynamics of crystal spheres in 3e. But, we saw none of that. In fact, aside from some of the 3e rules for weapons that were included in the module, I don't think I've ever used anything more from the campaign itself. When I run SJ games... it's always from the 2e sources. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 01:22:34
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>>No, it doesn't.
>>SJ is as SJ was detailed in the Adventures in Space 2e boxed set. The "Shadow of the Spider >>Moon" module in Polyhedron #151 wasn't SJ in 3e... but rather an interpretation of a SJ-ing >>like setting in 3e. The module is set completely within its own solar system -- and while >>it did contain details for "interplanetary" travel it never actually gave any particular >>focus to the Phlogiston or Crystal Spheres.
Just goes to show how much I got into Spelljammer. The concept is interesting, but I never bought any material beyond the main box. Same happened for me with Dark Sun, I bought the main box and that was it (though Dark Sun has NEVER made sense to me.... they're all half-starved, but yet they're extremely muscular??). I did get into Zakhara, but it was only AFTER they stopped producing the line (I had gotten bitten by so many of the alternate campaigns, that I didn't even have the interest to look into it..... shame on me, because what I have on Zakhara is amazingly well written).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 01:44:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just goes to show how much I got into Spelljammer. The concept is interesting, but I never bought any material beyond the main box.
You're not really missing anything with the POLYHEDRON module itself.
And since the 2e SJ TSR books are still available through second-hand sources, like nobleknight.com, it'd be more rewarding for you to save a few gold pieces and pick up where you left off.
After I read the SotSM article... and with my true love for the SJ setting still going strong, I was left wondering... "they could've done so much more with this idea." |
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Edited by - The Sage on 08 Aug 2006 01:45:49 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 03:47:29
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In case my group ever follow up on their characters that headed off to the Tears of Selune in the gnomish whelk that they took off in at the end of my last campaign, I had some ideas on how to update what was going on Spelljammer wise.
While I wouldn't go with the "Krynn has never been connected" concept, I'm not averse to the streams of Phlogiston shifting to the point that the crystal sphere isn't able to be reached by the old routes.
The other idea I was tossing around was that the Spelljammer went on a rampage and managed to tear up a large amount of the "established" fleets in Wildspace, including the Cormyreans, Shou, Wa, and Elven Armada. Not destroying them, but just damaging them, thus explaining the downturn in Spelljammer trafic in recent years.
I had a whole backstory that no one was ever likely to find out, about the Mad Arcane taking the Ultimate Helm from a new prospective captain and launching a all out attack because he himself has been fully driven over the edge by the Fool . . .
On top of that I was trying to figure what the Arcane contracts might look like for trade nations like Cormyr and those cities operating Spelljamming ports, like Waterdeep. But those are all details that would have to wait for another day. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 05:50:17
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I spent a long time tinkering with the idea of getting the PCs to chase after the the Spelljammer itself -- only to catch up to it at the same time as a massive Vodoni fleet, which manages to destroy the Spelljammer right in front of them! Of course, no one noticed the single small ship that suddenly went tearing off for the Flow right after the Spelljammer's destruction...  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 06:03:07
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I always kept the Spelljamer itself as something unknown, something the PCs could never actually completely be sure of until I wanted to use it. It added to the mystery of the setting, and made it easier for me to spread tidbits here and there across multiple SJ campaigns and adventures that would've (had the game continued) all come together into a massive "quest for the Spelljammer."
I set the PCs up to discover bits and pieces about the Spelljammer during side quests or as *accidental* discoveries during other adventures. I wanted to build up to something big involving the Spelljammer and bring an end to these adventures with a plot involving the Spelljammer.
It's such a shame the group later fell apart due to real-life committments.
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Spelljammer
