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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 02:52:17
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This topic will be heavely moderated, I suspect, or deleted. I ask for discussion of points of view.
In asking Ed a question I mentioned I was asked to play a male Priest of the Dark Maiden in my general guestion as to if Eilistraee had any race restriction on Priestess' race. Ed's thread got at least two replies saying males can not be Priests of Lady Silverhair. The debate raged for a time on the boards that should not be mentioned. Points raised on both sides that lean to what might be new canon. This might be a better place to discuss, not argue about which view is correct.
The issue revolves about the guestion if 3.0 changed the rules, it clearly did for Lolth, but was silent about Eilistraee.
We have one novel stating a Priest was killed, this Cleric was unnamed and continuity edits have been lacking in novels and sometimes source books as well.
We have F&P clearly stating that Sword dancers must be female, however the general entry of being a Cleric is not gender specfic. Yes the is female referenences there, but the entire 3.0 was written with an over correction, perhaps, of normal using male gender to indicate both genders. There is in text write up on when relaxing, gowns are worn in flarvor text. There are gowns that are gender nuetral, as anyone whom attended a formale graduation knows.
There is the preception of some that Eilistraee societties are gender equal, if this is correct it makes no sense to even considered a gender bias concerning whom becomes a Cleric.
The oposing arguments include the following.
In 2nd Eilistraee clearly only permitted females and nothing in source books clearly state that under 3rd males are premitted now. This in part because Lolth had a clear write up in 3.0 that she no longer had male Priests (which existed in 1st and 2nd) a clear in text change in a deity writeup.
The Ed in his replies often refered to Priestesses when speaking of Clerics of Eilistraee.
I am sure there are others the _The Sage_ and _Kuje_ can add to the list.
The question has been posed by a few to Ed if 3.X changed the Cleric rules and their has not yet been a reply.
The question has also been asked of Eric L Boyd and has not been answered with even an opinion.
It is claimed (though I can not source it) that Sean K Reynolds believes that male Clerics were permitted by the transition to 3.0.
Pints of discussion welcomed, telling me I am wrong does not work. I do not know if the gender restriction was lifted, I just believe it never should have been there in the first place.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:04:14
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Why do you feel it should not have been there in the first place? Why should a religion completely separated from Earth somehow conform to our modern, Earth perceptions of what is considered egalitarian and 'proper'?
Many people probably think that there are a lot of silly or artifical restrictions to religions - but that doesn't change the rules of a religion. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Why do you feel it should not have been there in the first place? Why should a religion completely separated from Earth somehow conform to our modern, Earth perceptions of what is considered egalitarian and 'proper'?
That's my feeling as well. I prefer that clerics of the Dark Maiden be female only, because that seems to be the design decision Ed has set into place.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:06:29
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Precisely.
I really don't allow my personal thoughts of what is proper or right get involved with fantasy religion.
Though I'm sure people would be in an uproar if there was a religion which stated it only allowed male clergy. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Though I'm sure people would be in an uproar if there was a religion which stated it only allowed male clergy. ;)
I was thinking the same thing. But then again, that's kind of silly too, to be upset over the norms established within a fantasy religion. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:10:26
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| Having both male and female clerics dancing naked in Eilistraee's honor could result in more than just vertically writhing bodies... but I do believe that Eilistraee favors female clerics/priests, although I don't see any reason why there shouldn't be male priests as well...after all Eilistraee doesn't believe in one sex's superiority, as Lolth does |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:11:15
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*Blink* RW has nothing to do with this, which BTW often had gender bias as to whom can be clergy.
I do not believe the restriction should have existed because "A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above" and that gender superiority is dimissed or gone in Eilistraee societies.
A rightful place of telling a male that OK you can do this, this or this, but not this even if they realy want to do not this strikes me as not rightful. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:12:56
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quote:
A rightful place of telling a male that OK you can do this, this or this, but not this even if they realy want to do not this strikes me as not rightful.
Why?
By saying right, you are appealing to morality... And what moral scale are you basing that off of?
That's our point - decrying ANYTHING as wrong or right about a religion based off of your personal moral compass is automatically referring to the real world influences which have molded your own ideas of right and wrong. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 07 Aug 2006 03:15:33 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:15:02
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quote:
I was thinking the same thing. But then again, that's kind of silly too, to be upset over the norms established within a fantasy religion.
Yeah, me too.
I think that it's kind of "messed up" that Lolth allows no males in her clergy in 3E any more. There's nothing about specific "female Drow" in her portfolio. It's ALL Drow. But deities are individual entities with their own personalities, so they make whatever decisions they want regardless of their portfolio, provided they do not go against it.
A Male Eilistraeen Temple Guardian has a place in the world above; just not among her clergy. Why is that in some way negatively affecting her goal of bringing Drow back to the surface? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:17:30
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My opinion on this has changed, slightly.
I believe for lore reasons it is in fact "female only".
For game play reasons, I think it's best to have males as allowed members of the priesthood. A quick explanation could be that Ellistraee was limiting her potential 'pool' of worshippers, so she opened things up.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 07 Aug 2006 03:19:06 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:19:57
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Ed said rightful, not me. Even favored classed does not make all female Drow a Cleric and male Drow a Wizard, they just tend to be better at it.
How does one define rightful is up to each person. Do I bring my views into the discussion, perhaps some, but I do look at the sources as well for this religion and the dogma. All races are welcome, at least it appears so pending answer from Ed or source book, and many races have Priests of a Patron deity.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 07 Aug 2006 03:22:09 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:26:46
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quote:
Ed said rightful, not me. Even favored classed does not make ever female Drow a Cleric and male Drow a Wizard, they just tend to be better at it.
Yes, and?
quote:
How does one define rightful is up to each person. Do I bring my views into the discussion, perhaps some, but I do look at the sources as well for this religion and the dogma.
No, what is rightful in a fantasy game is defined by the religions in the fantasy game.
quote:
All races are welcome, at least it appears so pending answer from Ed or source book, and many races have Priests of a Patron deity.
Races, yes. Genders, no.
And note that Vhaeraun's clergy is 99% male, and in F&P, it states "male only." Just like Lolth's states "female only."
I really don't understand.
Does the fact that Eilistraee only allow female clergy in some way conflict with her portfolios? If not, then what's the problem? Let a god be a god. You can dislike it or like it, but I don't feel that it would be proper to simply change it due to your personal feelings about it. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:29:32
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| What's the question here? In the baseline Realms, priests of Eilistraee are all female. In your own campaign it might or might not be a good idea to differ from that, depending on any number of variables. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:39:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
What's the question here? In the baseline Realms, priests of Eilistraee are all female. In your own campaign it might or might not be a good idea to differ from that, depending on any number of variables.
At best the question or discusion is about did 3.X open the door to Priests by what was said and not said. By what is not answered as well as what was not printed because stat blocks for deities were required remove space for other aspects of the religion because of page count.
Clearly in 2nd Edition it was female only. 3rd some see an opening for males as well. Some clearly do not as well because source book in thrid dis not directly overwrite 2nd, like was done with Lolth (I still wonder what happened to her male Priests when the Edition change came down, did they get killed, turned into females or recieve someother fate? ) |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:44:22
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| 2E lore stands unless it is specifically overwritten by 3E. So, that's the answer. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:47:15
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If you're playing just by the letter of what's in 3E sourcebooks, you can have those male priests.
If you're cleaving to Realmslore -- which is irrespective of ruleset -- you can't. (If one source doesn't lock down a detail and another does, that detail is not contradicted by the first source not addressing it.)
In your own campaign, either you can or you can't.
Sorry, I don't see much nuance here. |
Edited by - Faraer on 07 Aug 2006 03:48:07 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 03:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
2E lore stands unless it is specifically overwritten by 3E. So, that's the answer. :)
But my friend (if you allow me to so address you, if not replace with Sir) you forget the one 3.X novel that says a a male cleric/Priest of Eilistraee was killed. New lore trumps old lore, but as I offered in OP continuity editors are lacking or missing.
Also I have spoted far more glaring errors in novels that was discussed in the past. Novels are part of canon these days despite posible errors. The question becomes open. Yes a DM can bring interpertation to the religion and house rule anything, that is how I ended up with a male Priest in the first place to continue roleplay.
I can see a lot of reasons that Drow society would follow a traditional role, best females are Priestesses, the best males are Wizards. Equal or near equal treatment of genders (opinions vary on this interpertation of Eilisraee's dogma) is the item that I trying to focus discussion on. Why would Lady Silverhair after accepting dedication from a brother ond sister tell one I will give you a sword and spell casting ability and tell the other (if she would talk to him at all) I will give you a sword so that you can protect your sister in order to cast spells? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 04:13:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
But my friend (if you allow me to so address you, if not replace with Sir) you forget the one 3.X novel that says a a male cleric/Priest of Eilistraee was killed.
Which novel was this? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 04:29:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
But my friend (if you allow me to so address you, if not replace with Sir) you forget the one 3.X novel that says a a male cleric/Priest of Eilistraee was killed.
Which novel was this?
Search indicates likely _Lords of Darkness_ though I have not yet found direct quote from that book about him/he being killed. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 04:35:35
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| That's not a novel at all... |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 04:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Search indicates likely _Lords of Darkness_ though I have not yet found direct quote from that book about him/he being killed.
That's not a novel, but a campaign sourcebook.
I vaguely recall the passage you are speaking of--if I recall correctly, the person who is killed isn't identified as a priest or cleric. He was more likely a lay worshipper. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 04:47:28
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Well the boards that can not be mentioned, have deleted the thread, only found the partial referrence via seach engine. I do recall but so far can not prove that the "Souce book" sais he was a cleric (i.e. a Priest) of Eilistraee.
It should go without sating I do not own that book or any that clearly indicate a Priest unnaned. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 04:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well the boards that can not be mentioned, have deleted the thread, only found the partial referrence via seach engine. I do recall but so far can not prove that the "Souce book" sais he was a cleric (i.e. a Priest) of Eilistraee.
It should go without sating I do not own that book or any that clearly indicate a Priest unnaned.
Do you own the Lords of Darkness supplement? Before each "evil group" is introduced, there's a flavorful narrative that demonstrates how evil/shady/conniving the group is. Before one of the groups, there was an unnamed male who apparently adhered to the tenets of Eilistraee.
However, IIRC he was not mentioned to be a priest or cleric, and if I'm right, then the pro-male cleric argument based around this character is null and void.
In any case, like some others I don't really see the point of this discussion. Just because something is "official" doesn't mean it jives with the flavor of the Realms. If you want male priests, go for it, but personally I'm going with Ed's take on the matter. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Aug 2006 04:55:02 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 05:11:11
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*blink* I said I do not own the source book already. I have indicated that I do not own any novel or souce book that refers to a Cleric, male, of Eilistraee. The quote I saw was on WotC boards citing a novel or source book. The threads I find in search engine are expired or deleted by WotC, heck I do not even recieve a login page and I am a member (or was).
Memory as to a novel has me believing it was a sentence in one of the five books in the WotSQ series. IAE the novel or sourcebook I already conceeded was a weak link as it could have been a typo. Somebody missing putting an "s" in frount of and part of the word "he". |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 05:17:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
*blink* I said I do not own the source book already.
OK, sorry, I overlooked it then. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 06:15:05
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| I say let Males be Clerics of Ellistraee.:) |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 06:24:44
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I don't think that males haven ever been prohibited from joining Elistraee's clergy, its just more of a matter of preference.
There aren't many male clerics of the Dark Maiden because frankly, I don't see what Elistraee has to offer for males. Most of their customs and rituals(such as body-bending and dancing naked) usually revolve around aspects of feminity and there dosen't seem to be much of a place for male clerics.
Yes, it is possible for there to be male clerics of Elistraee, and I do not think that the high priestesses would actually try to openly prevent him from joining if he was truly determined. Its not that they are prohibited from joining I think, its just that they don't. Male Drow who want to rebell against Drow society usually go and serve Vhearaun or just some random surface god.
As for the Elistraeean clergy for being racist, like GD said, I woudn't exactly call traditions in a fantasy-setting to be racist in the RL sense. We shoudn't flame the traditions and customs of others with our own personal perspective just because we don't understand it. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 07 Aug 2006 06:25:18 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 06:29:22
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| In 2E, males were indeed prohibited from joining her clergy. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 09:04:41
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The impression I got was that Eilistraeen clergy had a gender bias - that is females only. I'm not sure why her faith should be a mirror of Lolthite faith in the sense that only females can be priests but, if I recall correctly, Demihuman Deities had it that only females could serve the Dark Maiden as clergy.
As an aside, maybe all Elven religions have a gender bias - females serve female deities and males serve male deities. That may explain why Corellon, as head of the pantheon, often adopts an androgynous appearance.*
When Third Edition came along, the Lolthite faith had a clear gender ban. Only females could serve Lolth as clerics. There are definite cultural reasons for this in that drow society is matriarchal and since clerics often serve to mark momentous moments in an individual's life - birth, naming, baptising into faith, comming of age, marriage - it makes sense that such figures are female.
However, if I recall correctly, no gender restriction remained on the Eilistraeen faith after 3rd Edn. It may very well be that drow culture is inured** to accepting only females in the capacity of clergy, which is why the vast majority of Eilistraeen clerics remain females.
There is also the selective breeding policy of the drow to consider. Females gain and hold power by being clerics, males obtain power by magecraft or by serving as warriors. In drow society, a succesful male is either a wizard or a fighter and as such much more likely to be chosen as a mate for a female. The preferred classes in drow reflect this.
Related to this discussion is my main Realms character's career. He is a cleric of Kiaransalee. Again in 2nd Edn, the Kiaransaleen faith had a gender ban on males serving as clergy. After 3rd End there was no clearly stated policy. When my PC first asked to serve she told him that males were not allowed to serve her as clergy. Since she didn't state that only females could serve my PC took the rather drastic gamble of castrating himself, saying as he did so, 'That he was now no longer a male.' (It helped that he was mentally unhinged.) Such an action pleased Kiaransalee and she accepted him as her cleric. That set up some great gameplay as he had to deal with the inherrent prejudice of other Kiaransaleen clerics who were all female. It also allowed Kiaransalee to send him dreams where she taunted his new 'no longer a male' status. As I see Kiaransalee as a goddess of the interface, Undeath being a state of neither being dead nor being alive my PC's status fits well with that perception.
To conclude, I would say that the Realms is full of remarkable individuals who chose not to follow the status quo. Drizzt chose not to do what was expected of him but what he felt was right. Earth's history is full of individuals who choose not to follow the pack but to do what their heart tells them. If a male drow, or a male of any other race, feels strongly compelled to become an Eilistraeen cleric then so long as Eilistraee accepts him then a new chapter of her religion begins.
I'd better get back to my work now.
* - If I'm following that logic then I'm at a loss to explain Ghaunadaur, but then again really devoted priests of Ghaunadaur become more akin to oozes and amorphites anyway
** - an appropriate choice of verb.
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Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 18:23:16
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Quite a time for this to come up.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Do you own the Lords of Darkness supplement? Before each "evil group" is introduced, there's a flavorful narrative that demonstrates how evil/shady/conniving the group is. Before one of the groups, there was an unnamed male who apparently adhered to the tenets of Eilistraee.
However, IIRC he was not mentioned to be a priest or cleric, and if I'm right, then the pro-male cleric argument based around this character is null and void.
First sentence for the Monks of the Long Death blurb: quote:
The cleric of Eilistraee smiled as he approached the cowled beggars on the road.
That seems pretty definite to me, all speculation about typos and so on aside.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
and in F&P, it states "male only."
Actually, if you mean Faiths and Pantheons it says "nearly exclusively male." Still leaves room for Masked Traitors and the like. Also, there's no gender restriction for the Darkmask.
I'm currently revising a story that deals with this issue, so I've given it some thought. So far as the story goes, there's now a small number of carefully picked male novices - possibly in some kind of response or balance to Lolth disposing of her male clergy - and they tend to run into various awkwardness with other Eilistraeens. For example, one set of clerics invites another to a religious gathering that's intended to be ladies only, and the others show up with their novice in tow.
quote:
You can dislike it or like it, but I don't feel that it would be proper to simply change it due to your personal feelings about it.
Yes, well, for the record I dislike it and my personal feelings are certainly an aid when I choose between competing theories. So far as Earth sensibilities, an exclusively female institution doesn't have nearly the connotations as one that's exclusively male (similar to portrayals of women beating up men as opposed to vice versa), but the drow gender dynamics are rather different. When I take that into consideration, the female-only clergy of a fluffy goodly goddess that will Show The Drow A Better Way leaves something of a nasty aftertaste.
I do wonder how they try to convert followers of Vhaeraun - all the attempted conversions I've read about have been Lolthians, and the deal offered would seem to be quite different. Assuming each of them are won over, the priestess of Lolth gets fluffy goodness, a community where her compatriots aren't trying to do her in, and a new goddess to grant her spells. The priest of Vhaeraun gets fluffy goodness, a community where the traditional positions of power are yet again exclusively filled by females, and a new goddess who doesn't think he's good enough to get spells because of an anatomical matter for which he has likely been mistreated before.
... yes, I can see why they've been talking to the Lolthians.
Of course, there's potential for something of a Catch-22. It could be argued that the ex-priest convert who complains, "Why won't Eilistraee grant me spells?" isn't really committed - if he were, so the reasoning would go, he wouldn't mind giving that up in return for the other perks. Same goes for potential converts - it could be said, quite righteously, that personal power shouldn't be a factor in their decision. That it probably would be a factor to some degree wouldn't help their case.
I like to think of it as a flaw - "good" people in the Realms certainly have their off days, as do other gods. But it's quite a significant flaw. My sensibilities might be irrelevant, but I'm still bothered. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 22:25:25
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| I would accept males as clerics of Eilistraee in my campaigns, but NOT as Sword Dancers. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Eilistraee, male Priests
Topic Locked
