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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 22:31:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
As an aside, maybe all Elven religions have a gender bias - females serve female deities and males serve male deities. That may explain why Corellon, as head of the pantheon, often adopts an androgynous appearance.*
This is a very good observation! Still, I would argue that there is no actual "gender bias" among the elven pantheon.
quote:
* - If I'm following that logic then I'm at a loss to explain Ghaunadaur, but then again really devoted priests of Ghaunadaur become more akin to oozes and amorphites anyway
Ghaunadaur is considered to be part of the Drow pantheon, and has more to do with humans than elves. It may very well be that Ghaunadaur (as Gormauth Souldrinker) is even an older entity than the elven (or drow) pantheon... |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 22:48:38
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Well in one of my odd moods I once propsed male rangers should be allowed to become Sword dancers if they wanted to. The effect appears to be anti powergaming as the advantages clearly were outweighed by slow spell advanvement and other factors.
I am content with female only Sword Dancers as there are other paths for males. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 01:30:15
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TobyKikami, thank you for posting that bit from Lords of Darkness.
Still, I just tend to go with what Ed says.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 01:34:07
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quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
The priest of Vhaeraun gets fluffy goodness, a community where the traditional positions of power are yet again exclusively filled by females, and a new goddess who doesn't think he's good enough to get spells because of an anatomical matter for which he has likely been mistreated before.
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't see at as a case of Eilistraee "not thinking males are good enough" to be clerics. *shrug* |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 02:27:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
TobyKikami, thank you for posting that bit from Lords of Darkness.
Still, I just tend to go with what Ed says.
Well Ed has said twice Priestesses and Twice Clerics in his replies when discussing aspects of Eilistraee followers. The question asked directly by at least thee different people, remains one of the unanswered questions, amoug I am sure hundreds of others. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 03:05:15
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quote:
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't see at as a case of Eilistraee "not thinking males are good enough" to be clerics. *shrug*
Agreed. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 03:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
The priest of Vhaeraun gets fluffy goodness, a community where the traditional positions of power are yet again exclusively filled by females, and a new goddess who doesn't think he's good enough to get spells because of an anatomical matter for which he has likely been mistreated before.
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't see at as a case of Eilistraee "not thinking males are good enough" to be clerics. *shrug*
I agree that I don't think that Elistraee has a bias against males, so much as she might consider females especially suited to being her divine representatives in Faerun. Its also possible that males are allowed to serve as "official" members of the church in other capacities, such as non-spellcasting acolytes, or those allowed to cast divine spells without fully being "priests," such as rangers. |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 19:20:07
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Heh. "Of all the phrases in all the paragraphs in all the post, you had to quote this one."
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
The priest of Vhaeraun gets fluffy goodness, a community where the traditional positions of power are yet again exclusively filled by females, and a new goddess who doesn't think he's good enough to get spells because of an anatomical matter for which he has likely been mistreated before.
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't see at as a case of Eilistraee "not thinking males are good enough" to be clerics. *shrug*
Downside to coming off writing a story, I guess... got carried away with the voice there. I do see it as an "in-character" thing to say - "I wasn't good enough for Lolth and I guess I'm not good enough for her either."
The thing is, whatever Eilistraee's reasoning, this hypothetical convert is not getting any clerical spells and never will... unless he switches gods. It's not a question of capability or inclination, since he's already a cleric. It's not a question of some moral "stain" either, since a former priestess of Lolth or even the female Masked Traitor next to him can do it if they show willing.
It could be that they're instead introduced to the clergy of allied gods - say Corellon, Erevan, or Selune; I believe that possibility's been brought up before, though not necessarily on this board. Still, these faiths don't offer quite the same thing (else there'd probably be some subsuming going on), so the male who's devoted to Eilistraee's teachings and who's lugging around some levels of ex-cleric is apparently flat out of luck. But then there's the Catch-22 again.
A majority I could understand - given, as others have mentioned, Eilistraee's "feminine" aspects. When one considers goddesses with similar portfolios as listed in Faiths and Avatars and Demihuman Deities - let's say Hanali, Sehanine, Selune and Sune...
Hanali - Nearly an even split.
Sehanine - Nearly an even split.
Selune - The majority of the powerful priests tend to be female and human, though no explicit restrictions or statistics seem to be given.
Sune - "Female clergy outnumber male clergy eight to one, but the men are all the more highly valued for their relative rarity."
And with other members of the dysfunctional family...
Selvetarm - Fifteen percent female.
Vhaeraun - Less than one percent female Masked Traitors.
Even Lolth - Used to be four percent male, though it was not a promising career choice.
Why would Eilistraee be so different that she couldn't or wouldn't take any males period? There may be a reasonable explanation, but a priestess doing her pitch - particularly to a drow who's already broken with Lolth's society, and particularly to a male priest - should certainly expect some questioning on the matter.
But I do like to think she's gradually opening up, even as her mother cracked down. |
Edited by - TobyKikami on 08 Aug 2006 19:23:17 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 19:39:29
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I don't think it's wise to consider gods 'thinking' in human terms at all, and I don't think folk of Faerūn do. Only the moon-witted or self-crazed would think to understand the motivation of a deity.
Consider this practically. As a DM, do you have NPC male priests of Eilistraee? No, because the most authoritative sources, FOR2 and Demihuman Deities, say so. Do you allow a male priest PC? Maybe! As Kiaransalyn says, there are exceptions and heroes are exceptional. But I would make that decision with a concrete player-supplied background, not in the abstract; and such a character would be dramatically most interesting if there weren't other male Eilistrean clerics, and probably if the story was played through rather than assumed at first level. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 20:04:12
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Well one of the biggest arguments presented and slightly touched on in this thread. Naken males, generally are not a good cimimatic image. The brief reference in this thread was naked males and females dancing together might result in other activities.
A few points the dogma does not require nudity in most rituals. Ony the High Hunt and the Last Dance describe nudity, other rituals have the description of "For rituals, they wear as little as possible." which leaves open if there will be some clothing worn as to the needs of the circle or group instead of nude.
The point of converting a Vhaeraun priest and not him being premitted to atone because of his gender really should be considered. To say Vhaeraun treats Drow more equal then Eilistraee does clearly appears to be a problem as to which Deity is more "Good".
One thing for those willing to acept male Priests are the skills a Cleric is expected to have.
Graceful, as in dancing.
Good voice, as in singing.
"Clerics are expected to be skilled in hunting and in playing at least one of the Dark Maiden's favored instruments (horn, flute, or harp). They must be adequate singers as well as fit, graceful dancers." The males might not be as inclined or able to meet all four items. Even a converted Vhaeraun priest might not want to sing, choosing instead other ways to serve Lady Silverhair. Most males clearly will sign on for hunting, fewer tend to display the same level of interest in the other three. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 08 Aug 2006 20:07:25 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 00:35:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well one of the biggest arguments presented and slightly touched on in this thread. Naked males, generally are not a good cimimatic image.
As a straight female, I have to disagree. 
Anyway, as I understand it, no one chooses to be a cleric, they are called to be such by their god. Therefore, it's hard for me to imagine that there would be much hand-wringing by "prospective male priests of Eilistraee" because they really wouldn't exist--why would they want to be clerics if Eilistraee doesn't call them? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 01:09:09
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| Also, if you think some members of Eilistraean cells don't engage in other activities, I don't think you'd be right. |
Edited by - Faraer on 09 Aug 2006 01:09:27 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 01:20:50
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Hmm called to serve. Not counting Darksong Knights we have this.
"In rare circumstances, males who worship Eilistraee-or beings without any priest powers who work to further Eilistraee's aims and need her visible blessing and support (or just some light)-will temporarily manifest moonfire " A 2nd Edition quote I conceed, where it was female only priestesses. However the reference clearly indicates that males would be given the ability to cast Divine spells granted by the Lady of the Dance. *wink*
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 01:29:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hmm called to serve. Not counting Darksong Knights we have this.
"In rare circumstances, males who worship Eilistraee-or beings without any priest powers who work to further Eilistraee's aims and need her visible blessing and support (or just some light)-will temporarily manifest moonfire " A 2nd Edition quote I conceed, where it was female only priestesses. However the reference clearly indicates that males would be given the ability to cast Divine spells granted by the Lady of the Dance. *wink*
Temporarily?
Anyway, I was talking about be called to be a full-fledged PRIEST, not just being called to serve, which could refer to all kinds of vocations.
Not all religious people are clerics. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Aug 2006 01:30:20 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:10:33
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Of course not all religious people are clerics, I hardly argue this point at all. Even all Drow females are not clerics, I never claimed that all followers should be clerices. I even referenced Darksong Knights which are clearly Fighters of both genders. At best my question is why male clerics would not be called at this point in time, Eilistraee clearly has a history of providing divine favor on followers and even sometimes non followers in times of need?
Why not call males to serve? It certainly would help with the followers of Vhaeraun to see a priest of Eilistraee and the two deities both claim a place on the surface. Actually Lolth claims this right as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:17:07
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| See my point about the folly of trying to interpret the actions of gods in rational human terms. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
See my point about the folly of trying to interpret the actions of gods in rational human terms.
What point about rational human terms?
I am looking at this as best I can from a D&D rational terms of source provided. There appears no reason that Eilistraee would not call males to serve her to the best of their abilities, be it any class at all. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:46:44
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quote:
There appears no reason that Eilistraee would not call males to serve her to the best of their abilities, be it any class at all.
D&D terms are rational human terms.
The best reason is SHE DOESN'T WANT TO.
What more reason do you need? :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:49:13
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| She is female and can change her mind *wink* without ever being wrong. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:19:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Anyway, as I understand it, no one chooses to be a cleric, they are called to be such by their god. Therefore, it's hard for me to imagine that there would be much hand-wringing by "prospective male priests of Eilistraee" because they really wouldn't exist--why would they want to be clerics if Eilistraee doesn't call them?
Simple. They could believe deeply in her teachings. They could admire priestesses of Eilistraee they know. They could be a former cleric of another god and think being called would eventually be part of switching religions - particularly if they've seen or heard of other apostates. They could want to be a cleric like people want to be actors or whatnot. It's certainly less a matter of personal choice than deciding to be a warrior or even a mage, but not being called doesn't mean they won't want to be called. I doubt all the actual clerics in the Realms were completely oblivious to the possibility until their deity tapped them on the shoulder.
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
See my point about the folly of trying to interpret the actions of gods in rational human terms.
But there already is plenty of "interpretation in rational human terms" - when they're depicted in novels and comics, and when the sourcebooks describe their alignments, personalities, and so on. What would you call Abbathor being bitter about not having charge of a dwarven subrace? What would you call Vhaeraun's perpetual grudges? What would you call Selvetarm being tricked into killing Zanassu to impress Eilistraee? What would you call the numerous romances and friendships, not to mention the rivalries? If it's impossible to "interpret" the gods at all, if their actions seem completely irrational from a mortal perspective (including the omniscient reader perspective), then wouldn't they all seem as insane as Lolth and pre-Crucible Cyric?
quote:
Only the moon-witted or self-crazed would think to understand the motivation of a deity.
There's definitely been "in-character" speculation, at least - for example, the Powers and Pantheons entry for Garagos, and at least one entry for Helm.
And priestesses would certainly appreciate a possible answer other than "Our goddess works in mysterious ways." There have been theological explanations for much less.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
D&D terms are rational human terms.
The best reason is SHE DOESN'T WANT TO.
What more reason do you need? :)
The obvious question would be "Well, why doesn't she want to?"
(My pet explanation is that she's still in the "cooties" stage, or just plain squeamish about brazen display of the male form  ) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:34:43
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quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Simple. They could believe deeply in her teachings. They could admire priestesses of Eilistraee they know. They could be a former cleric of another god and think being called would eventually be part of switching religions - particularly if they've seen or heard of other apostates.
Well, I personally think they would be made aware that males couldn't be clerics, and wouldn't be led to believe otherwise. *shrug*
quote:
They could want to be a cleric like people want to be actors or whatnot. It's certainly less a matter of personal choice than deciding to be a warrior or even a mage, but not being called doesn't mean they won't want to be called.
Not to be cheeky, but I could argue that wanting to be called is all a part of actually being called, and if one isn't called, they don't want it. Of course, that's just one take on the matter...we are arguing about stuff that can't really be proven either way, I suppose.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:34:51
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| Why ask why? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Simple. They could believe deeply in her teachings. They could admire priestesses of Eilistraee they know. They could be a former cleric of another god and think being called would eventually be part of switching religions - particularly if they've seen or heard of other apostates.
Well, I personally think they would be made aware that males couldn't be clerics, and wouldn't be led to believe otherwise. *shrug*
How would you bring that up, really? I imagine it would be awkward to head off any hopes while arguing the benefits of the faith.
"Oh, and here's where the Dark Ladies hang out nights. Nice and scenic, isn't it? By the way, note the word 'ladies.' Note that it is feminine. Exclusively feminine. And it will stay so. The goddess works in mysterious ways, you see. But don't let that put you off, because we're nothing like Lolth whatsoever, not to mention morally superior to the Men's Lib superhero wannabe."
(Okay, I have no excuse for that one  )
Anyhow, people don't necessarily stop wanting what they're told they can't have, even if they may not be as creative about getting around it as the Kiaransalee worshipper mentioned earlier in the thread.
quote:
quote:
They could want to be a cleric like people want to be actors or whatnot. It's certainly less a matter of personal choice than deciding to be a warrior or even a mage, but not being called doesn't mean they won't want to be called.
Not to be cheeky, but I could argue that wanting to be called is all a part of actually being called, and if one isn't called, they don't want it. Of course, that's just one take on the matter...we are arguing about stuff that can't really be proven either way, I suppose.
Myself, I find it a bit of a stretch to suppose that, unless it's convenient for the deity, some kind of magical faerie dust - or possibly a wizard - keeps anyone from thinking that it sure would be nice to turn undead, sling healing spells, and dance around skyclad with a sword while spreading happiness and so on. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:19:25
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| I guess you see it differently than I do, then. No big deal. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:21:03
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quote:
Originally posted byTobyKikami
But there already is plenty of "interpretation in rational human terms" - when they're depicted in novels and comics, and when the sourcebooks describe their alignments, personalities, and so on. What would you call Abbathor being bitter about not having charge of a dwarven subrace? What would you call Vhaeraun's perpetual grudges? What would you call Selvetarm being tricked into killing Zanassu to impress Eilistraee? What would you call the numerous romances and friendships, not to mention the rivalries? If it's impossible to "interpret" the gods at all, if their actions seem completely irrational from a mortal perspective (including the omniscient reader perspective), then wouldn't they all seem as insane as Lolth and pre-Crucible Cyric?
There is a great difference between mythological stories of the gods, like who their brothers/sisters are , why they are bitter at each other, and trying to analyse their creeds with human understanding. These human stories are not the gods true background, it is the human mind building up a logic. With FR mythology its getting to the point where the gods true minds are debated and what their motives are. This is natural, but it can only be speculations.
So Eilistraee only accepts females? OK, story X tells of how the male rebels spurned her and went over to Verhaun. That's an explanation, not necessarily a fact. To sit down and try to figure out the true reasons for gods acting from an outside perspective is to set one self on line with the gods and therefore would not be to common in the Realms.
Now maybe one day a priestess has had a vision that says she shall find ten male priests for the faith; OK, so he does that. He has little chance of getting an answer to a "He? Why have you changed your mind about female priests?" question. Now, this happening might give birth to a story among the faithful that tells of how Eilistraee took pity on the males and decided to take them into her fold; that makes it more logical for her faithful, but not therefore true. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:21:09
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Same here.
I prefer 2E's mindset of restricting the players to promote story and cultural/religious highlighting, rather than letting them think they can do anything they want.
And I've been a player far more often than a DM. I liked the fact that when I played a 2E Dragonlance campaign, I had major restrictions. But then again, my Black Robed Undead Master Necromancer had 4 banned schools of magic, and I liked that, so I'm not your typical player. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 09 Aug 2006 05:22:10 |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 10:07:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted byTobyKikami
But there already is plenty of "interpretation in rational human terms" - when they're depicted in novels and comics, and when the sourcebooks describe their alignments, personalities, and so on. What would you call Abbathor being bitter about not having charge of a dwarven subrace? What would you call Vhaeraun's perpetual grudges? What would you call Selvetarm being tricked into killing Zanassu to impress Eilistraee? What would you call the numerous romances and friendships, not to mention the rivalries? If it's impossible to "interpret" the gods at all, if their actions seem completely irrational from a mortal perspective (including the omniscient reader perspective), then wouldn't they all seem as insane as Lolth and pre-Crucible Cyric?
There is a great difference between mythological stories of the gods, like who their brothers/sisters are , why they are bitter at each other, and trying to analyse their creeds with human understanding. These human stories are not the gods true background, it is the human mind building up a logic. With FR mythology its getting to the point where the gods true minds are debated and what their motives are. This is natural, but it can only be speculations.
Where in the sourcebooks does it say the reader is supposed to interpret the information that way? The information is presented as matter-of-fact, behind-the-scenes information.
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 10:23:23
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I prefer 2E's mindset of restricting the players to promote story and cultural/religious highlighting, rather than letting them think they can do anything they want.
I don't see this debate as about whether players are allowed to do whatever they want,its about a lack of crucial information concerning the manifest gender bias of a deity that seeks to save an entire race, yet clings to discriminatory practices that undermine her goals. As for arguements that this brings "real-world morality" into a fantasy game, gender equality is implicitly presented in the Forgotten Realms as something that people of "good" alignment believe in. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 10:26:42
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quote:
I don't see this debate as about whether players are allowed to do whatever they want,its about a lack of crucial information concerning the manifest gender bias of a deity that seeks to save an entire race, yet clings to discriminatory practices that undermine her goals.
Please point to where it states in a source that these practices are in some way inhibiting her goals.
quote:
As for arguements that this brings "real-world morality" into a fantasy game, gender equality is implicitly presented in the Forgotten Realms as something that people of "good" alignment believe in.
Very true!
What's your point? We're not talking about unequalities, but rather differences. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 10:28:33
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quote:
Where in the sourcebooks does it say the reader is supposed to interpret the information that way? The information is presented as matter-of-fact, behind-the-scenes information.
In previous editions, all of the "facts" of the deities (or at least many of them) were completely up in the air. This is why we see in Powers of Faerun (written by the two most prevalent Realms-authors, Ed Greenwood and Eric Boyd, who know the most about the deities) we see many divine casters worshipping aspects of the deity that are "factually incorrect."
Because they aren't incorrect.
.. Or are they? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Eilistraee, male Priests
Topic Locked
